Now that I have your attention;

Many of you are wondering why, after all the allegations that the BHR Ignition System does not work (especially for F/I or power-adder applications) we at BHR have been quiet about it all. Here is the story;

When we were developing the kit we tried the MSD 8247 coils versus the LS2 coils. When we deemd the LS2s to be our coil of choice (for several reasons), and before we began production, I ran into the Yukon coils as another option and assumed (which is where I screwed up) that their operational properties were the exact same as the LS2s except with much higher electrical output. The latter was/is true but the former is not. The Yukons have different needs in order to operate at maximum efficiency but, once those minor needs are met, the payoff is WELL worth it because they truly are a surprise performer and will definitely provide the current and voltage we have alleged all along.

In N/A applications this does not tend to pose an issue. However, we discovered that in power-adder applicationss the Yukons had a rather difficult time. That is until NOW.

The reason not much has been said about all this is because we have been busy re-evaluating everything about the BHR Ignition System and ALL of the issues we have experienced along the way, including potential installer error, and I have been losing a LOT of sleep during this period.

It seems each batch of kits shipped had their own unique set of circumstances and they were mostly installation issues. This phase is what I now call "Gamma-testing" as our customers' reactions and experiences are always an unknown and the Gamma-testing phase is where we learn how people interpret the installation instructions, how they handle the product, and how they perceive any benefits. All of this is also extremely UN-scientific and extremely subjective in nature. This is what makes it so difficult to assess things and to interpret the effectiveness of many products we in the aftermarket industry offer for sale.

As for the performance of the BHR Ignition System and what we intend to do about it; we at BHR have devised a remedy and we will soon set about dispatching said solution to all of you. Please be patient as MazdaManiac (Jeff) and I have a LOT of records to reconcile and people to contact. We will start with the power-adder applications and work our way through the entire list of people who own the kit or are about to.

Jeff used Flashwing's car as the first test-mule, used his own car to verify the results, and my car was used over the past few days to further verify the outcomes. Although my own credibility may be suffering right now as a result of my oversight when I selected the Yukon coils for our kit I will still tell all of you that once you get the remedy from us you will be glad you did. The degree to which our remedy improves things is the same degree to which the BHR Ignition System provided improvements versus the OEM coils in the first place. In other words (and I am being a bit loose with my semantics, here), many of you will see a "doubling" of the benefits gleaned from the kit and I can only hope after that you will all forgive me for my oversight and seeming relative silence on this particular matter.

We have been quiet because we did not want to engage everybody in speculation and, rather, wanted to spend our time figuring it all out. Consider the matter solved and the "fix" is forthcoming.

Thanks for understanding all of this and I hope you will still consider BHR to be a credible company with whom to do business.

As a many times returning customer of yours i am subscribing :)

I feel cuddled by BHR when it comes to assistance, even if i didn't have a single problem with your products.

You have to have pretty big stones to publicly admit an error like this. Good for you.

No worries.
I have faith in BHR to stand by their products and remedy any flaws as they are presented.

I have to disagree with Ray on one thing.
You mentioned that your credibility may be suffering; but by publicly acknowledging and admitting your oversight, I think you've gain MORE respect from the RX8 community.

There's no doubt BHR exhibits much more transparency than most aftermarket parts manufacturers. Anxiously awaiting further news.

doh and i was about to put them on today to ~_~

doh and i was about to put them on today to ~_~

You can do it (if Charles doesn't say the opposite), my car runs much better with my kit installed! Whatever BHR is going to address must be something intended mostly for FI guys.
There are a lot of kits here in italy, some of the users also removed the wires but there are no unsatisfied customers so far.
I am sure that, for most of us, it will be just another extra and not a real problem solution for to solve an issue you must be having it first!

FWIW - I have tested a part of the solution on an NA BHR car - and stock motor; it still makes a rather remarkable difference... I was blown away actually.

I'll finalize my testing in the next week to see if I can get even more gains per Ray's instructions; either way NA-ers don't be worried about putting them on now - they work great.... with the updates they will just work great-er-er-est-ness or something like that.

doh and i was about to put them on today to ~_~

John, go ahead and install the coils and make sure to be careful with the plug wires. Once you get your AP we will get you all set up and you'll have another slight improvement in performance from your car. The N/A applications that use the OEM PCM and maps have had ZERO issues (aside form the pre-connected spark plug wires, that is), according to my recent survey of all 130+ BHR Ignition System owners.

Please also remember that this whole process will take some time for Jeff and I to implement so don't PM him, me, Flashwing, Easy_E1, or Hund as we are working on all of this as we speak. There are a LOT of people to contact.;)

Once you get your AP we will get you all set up and you'll have another slight improvement in performance from your car.
Are you saying that Jeff has been adjusting our tunes for the BHR coils (if we included the coils as an addition)?
Was this a recent thing or has this been going on all along?

No, but we will be adjusting for the coils retroactively and from now on have maps prepared for those who will also be using the BHR Ignition System.

Rather than engage in a long, back-and-forth, dialogue let me just say that all of you with the Cobb AP will be updated shortly. The F/I guys will also be contacted as to what needs to be done. I won't have the time nor the patience to get into the particulars here.

Lotsa variables/circumstances but everybody will be addressed.

Hey Ray, will you be losing money over this? I wouldn't feel right about putting you in the hole after all of your team's hard work. Whatever the additional costs are, I'll spot you the difference for mine.

I am sure the entire BHR team will argue over the various perspectives but it is strictly my own obligation to see the proper resolution and I accept the fullest of responsibility in doing so. The rest of the guys, in keeping my own and BHR's best interests at heart, keep trying to get me to stop "giving away the farm" but in this case it would be the right thing to do.

If people want to throw money at BHR's problems, I have a worthy recipient in mind who could use that sort of help way more than BHR can. PM me about it.;)

there was too much text to read in the first post.

I don't know what this thread is about - my bhr coils work just fine. Damn haters.

there was too much text to read in the first post.

Not enough patience on your part. I started the thread, Sir.;)

there was too much text to read in the first post.

I don't know what this thread is about - my bhr coils work just fine. Damn haters.

Just wait....:Eyecrazy: It will be worth it.

My car already runs really nice. What am I waiting for? Even more awesomeness? Woo!

My car already runs really nice. What am I waiting for? Even more awesomeness? Woo!

Yup - :ylsuper:

i demand the BHR crew and Jeff return to Nor Cal for a dyno day or I shall hire the corpse of johnny cochrane to sue you all!

I guess in a way the real lesson here is even my "screw-ups" end up on a positive note.

How can I be destined for failure with THAT kind of "luck" and the team around me I have who are all part of BHR?:dunno:

i demand the BHR crew and Jeff return to Nor Cal for a dyno day or I shall hire the corpse of johnny cochrane to sue you all!

I just dealt with enough legal drama for the next 30 days, thank you.:) In this case, though, the glove might just fit! :lol2:

Like my old Commander (RIP) said - "Better to be lucky than good." LOL J/K.

dead lawyer vs flashwong.... fight!

dead lawyer vs flashwong.... fight!

5€ on Flashwong!

mine was a huge improvement over oem so i'm definitely looking forward to this.

http://www.markstivers.com/cartoons/Cartoons%202004/Stivers-3-21-04-Failure.gif

Looking forward to the solution!

Just out of curiosity, is the fix for FI problem a software mod or harware?

I cant wait to get the fix so I can reinstall them on my car. It runs good already with the OEM ones so it should do great with the BHR ones.

Though mine work just fine I'm interested to hear what the issue is. I'm curious if it has something to do with my car not starting on the 1st crank when warm. I also have an AP...so I will stay tuned!

Thanks for being up front about the issue, BHR. I hope this doesn't hurt the business.

Just out of curiosity, is the fix for FI problem a software mod or harware?

Neither.

As I mentioned in my first post regarding "Gamma-testing"; one of the interesting things I have learned recently was just how many people installed the BHR Ignition System in the veiled hopes that it would "cure" or "help" solve problems that were completely unrelated to the ignition system. Low compression, weak batteries, slow starter speed, etc. are not symptoms that can be alleviated with a "hotter" or better spark no matter WHICH ignition system one is installing. Whereas installing a nitrous system on a weak performing engine will still result in a weak performing engine, installing an H.O. ignition system is not going to result in anything other than a weak engine with a really cool ignition system on it.

In several cases (and this concept happens with almost every product we vendors sell and the main reason vendors in this industry become jaded, when they do), those who KNEW their engines were not in the best of condition still sent me panicked PMs insisting that the coils were flawed, damaged, or inoperable and it was somehow the fault of the coil kit that their problems were not alleviated. Of course, the pre-existing conditions were never mentioned to me until several troubleshooting attempts on my part, many PMs back-and-forth, and many sleepless nights with concern for my customers' situations and BHR's reputation. I understand that the object about which we consumers know the least, in this case electrical components, is usually the one we are first to blame when things go awry. Electrical stuff is still a mystery to 99% of people in the world. Using re-flash tools and tuning software runs a pretty close second.;)

http://www.markstivers.com/cartoons/Cartoons%202004/Stivers-3-21-04-Failure.gif

Is this a confession, of sorts, and are you still on the subject of the coils?:lol2:

wow,

ray, again first class customer service! and getting ahead of the issue..

keep up the excellent service!

beers :beer:

Wow, just incredible!

Scribed for some interesting stuff.

Can't believe this stuff is going to get even AWESOMER! Ppl can expect a 50horsepower increase right? :)

Ppl can expect a 50horsepower increase right? :)

You can expect whatever you like.

I expect a 150 shot to immediately be attainable :lol:

I expect a 150 shot to immediately be attainable :lol:

It already is. Your engine wouldn't like it, though. :lol2:

Then give me your engine lol

Come to AZ and you can drive the car all you want while you are here.;)

that would probably be the best loaner car in az..

Ray,
So no nitrous until I get the fix?

that would probably be the best loaner car in az..

Nope. MM's would be. Mine is a garbage truck by comparison.:lol:

Ray,
So no nitrous until I get the fix?

Nitrous will be fine but I would suggest you wait.

Ray, will this delay the shipment of the coils which were going out this Monday and should we hold off on installing them when we get them? I'm still currently NA, but plan to be boosted by next month.

Ray, will this delay the shipment of the coils which were going out this Monday and should we hold off on installing them when we get them? I'm still currently NA, but plan to be boosted by next month.

No, but keep an eye on your PM boxes.

In having the issues arise with the coil kit and investigating the situation we discovered the following;

1) N/A applications that are NOT using some sort of re-flash/EMS device are completely fine with the BHR kit as is.
2) Those who have a re-flash/EMS device (even while N/A) will be able to see some small additional gains and we will address this with each of you.
3) The seriously boosted engines (such as 7 PSI, manifold, or more) need this fix and should either exercise restraint or re-install the OEM coils until we contact you.
4) Nitrous users are in both groups 1 and 2 above.
5) GReddy Turbo Kit users are in group 2.

Many thanks to those who alerted us to this issue in the first place, most notably Nuke0907 and 05rex8.

I am probably going to get yelled at or several questions from people so PLEASE READ THE ABOVE CAREFULLY before you deluge me with PMs asking, "Which category am I in?"

Sweet deal. Glad BHR has found the answer. You got a huge pair of brass ones to step forward and say you made a mistake. I respect that, especially when you've got a fix for it too. Good work Charles.

This isn't a case of coil dwell timing again is it?

You got a huge pair of brass ones to step forward and say you made a mistake. I respect that, especially when you've got a fix for it too. Good work Charles.

This isn't a case of coil dwell timing again is it?

Several people have expressed this same sentiment via posts and PMs, Socket, and though I appreciate the support and empathy, the reason I have not responded to such sentiments is because I don't think I am doing anything more than what is right and proper. As such, I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea that I deserve any kind of praise on this particular matter because this is what we vendors are SUPPOSED to do. If anyone will be deserving praise it will be the rest of the BHR team (MazdaManiac, Easy_E1, Flashwing, and Hund) as THEY are the ones who will probably be helping me and they don't deserve to have this matter added to their list of stuff to do. I fucked-up and it is totally on me to fix it all.

The dwell characteristics are a bit different between the LS2 and Yukon coils. Even so, we still feel the Yukon coils are "The Bomb" when all things are considered. If I thought another coil was a superior choice (and I had some really cool ideas on what to do) I would have instituted changes by now and recalled each and every BHR Ignition System in the process. When the dwell is adjusted properly the Yukon coils are every bit as powerful as we have always said and we will stand behind these Bad Boys, 100%.

No worries.
I have to disagree with Ray on one thing.
You mentioned that your credibility may be suffering; but by publicly acknowledging and admitting your oversight, I think you've gain MORE respect from the RX8 community.

QFT. Any person or company that is willing to admit to and fix previous mistakes gains respect in all levels in my book.

EVERYONE, makes mistakes. Those who learn from them are wise, and those who take responsibility for them are honored. You my friend, are both.

/\ Good, was wondering if there was going to be a shipment issue...

You can't calll it a total "Fuck-UP", as it does work, and works well and it won't blow your engine, so that's a plus side. :)

Oh and good job on taking responsibility man... proves you have some pretty big balls to own up.

I like how ray gives credit to his whole team which shows a lot about BHR and how good of a company they are.

You can't calll it a total "Fuck-UP", as it does work, and works well and it won't blow your engine, so that's a plus side. :)

This point goes directly to why BHR takes so damned long to get new parts to the market; rather than rush stuff out there only to find it is useless and of no benefit, we prefer to take our time and beat the crap out of it before we sell it. What this leads to is the biggest mistakes yielding minor negative consequences and, should problems arise, the solutions typically lead to even better performance/more improvement over the problem we were seeking to solve in the first place.

Our new midpipe is a prime example of such. Once we have ascertained that we like the sound it provides with the vast majority of cat-backs available on the market, we will then spend the money to data-gather and see if there is any tangible benefit to the pipe. After THAT, we will see if we can get them built with perfect or near-perfect fitment and sold for our target market price (which will be QUITE reasonable).

Again, all you guys are the best for understanding all this stuff but I haven't yet done anything of which I am particularly proud (except, maybe, the throttle body spacer;)).

EVERYONE, makes mistakes. Those who learn from them are wise, and those who take responsibility for them are honored.

Speaking of THAT; Jon316G and I had quite a conversation recently regarding clutch pedal adjustments wherein I learned that I was right and wrong at the same time and even clutch pedal adjustment can be a "gray area" issue for many of us. The issue involved "stroke" adjustment and whether or not it was necessary. I don't want to shift the focus here but I do want to point out that Jon's conversation with me caused me to shove my own fat ass under my dash and verify everything I was telling him. What I learned was that verifying the stroke length CAN be helpful but that I also still prefer to have the clutch and brake pedals at the same adjustment height. Having done several clutch pedal installations and/or adjustments without issue I will, from now on, also check the stroke length anyway before I adjust the amount of free-play.

qft. Any person or company that is willing to admit to and fix previous mistakes gains respect in all levels in my book.

Everyone, makes mistakes. Those who learn from them are wise, and those who take responsibility for them are honored. You my friend, are both.+1!

Ray what help can you give the folks that made their own yukon set up----errrrr ME!
Car seems fine--running Cams flash--should i call him--or do i need to swap out to the LS 2's? or go back to oem's
olddragger

Ray what help can you give the folks that made their own yukon set up----errrrr ME!
Car seems fine--running Cams flash--should i call him--or do i need to swap out to the LS 2's? or go back to oem's
olddragger
+1 .. if I wasn't so much of a DIY'er, I would definitively purchase your products. It's nice to know there are still honest business men.

my coils are going to get awesomer!
Thanks Ray, looking forward to the 'fix'

Wait I'm a little confused. So all the NA people without any re-flashing tool will not get anything?

Since the only thing that can really be adjusted is the dwell :) What's the snizzle :)

Wait I'm a little confused. So all the NA people without any re-flashing tool will not get anything?

NA people without reflashing, do not need any 'fix'. Kit works great as is. :)

Wait I'm a little confused. So all the NA people without any re-flashing tool will not get anything?

Much like a CAI, Midpipe/Cat Delete, Race Gas etc.... if you cannot tune for the differences then you will not see the gains that you COULD see if you tuned for them.

In this case - there is nothing WRONG with the NA Ignition (same or better than stock) - but if you can tune around it there is more to be had from the motor + modification combo on your car.

cool, just wanted to clear it up a little, but now if the NA people go FI in the future, and not get the ap with the preset dwell, will we receive the appropriate dwell settings or will we have to ask for them

cool, just wanted to clear it up a little, but now if the NA people go FI in the future, and not get the ap with the preset dwell, will we receive the appropriate dwell settings or will we have to ask for them

If you get the AP from Jeff - you have to tell him your mods - ignition will be fixed. If you do it yourself, Ray will get you the specs to change - too easy.

guess my dyno session will have to wait till I get the ignition fix so I can get the most out of it ;D

This reminds me of the Mazsport ignition solution that required dwell settings changed a few months after they were released.

If I remember correctly mysql cracked his block because he was running stock dwell settings with the Mazsport ignition solution.

I imagine if the BHR coils work without damage, the dwell settings that need to be changed would be minimal. Correct?

very interesting Ray - given our discussion on Dwell over in the Mazsport Ignition solution thread a few weeks back ......

Well done on finding a solution and working with your customers to implement it - that's something we didn't see from Mazsport when they had problems .

question for Ray:

One reason why I never installed my set back in the day when this was first a splice up mod was because I was unsure of the higher RPM capacity of this style of coil. I've heard on a few websites doing quite a bit of research that dwell changes when the firing times become very small. The stability of the circuit will determine its tendency to misfire or burn out.

Basically, do you have any empirical data about the stability of these coils @ 8-9K RPM dwell & load settings (if they change) for long term operation? I asked MM about this a long time ago he never got back to me.

Background info http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls2

Another Question/ Possibility:

Edit: Did more research and don't think this is the case..

......... do you have any empirical data about the stability of these coils @ 8-9K RPM dwell & load settings (if they change) for long term operation?

Other than the fact that MM has been running them on his own car for about a year and that many of us have been beating these coils to death for the past 6 months? How would you suggest I gather the "empirical" data you are seeking?:)

This reminds me of the Mazsport ignition solution that required dwell settings changed a few months after they were released.

If I remember correctly mysql cracked his block because he was running stock dwell settings with the Mazsport ignition solution.

I imagine if the BHR coils work without damage, the dwell settings that need to be changed would be minimal. Correct?

Front Iron - but yeah that is the theory.

The fact is sh*t happens and you have to pay to play. If Mazda spends 1000X more on R&D that any of us can afford to - and still didn't get it right (look at the 04's); how much more likely are we to have small issues given the Prototypical nature of these products.

The key here is - if you want to break new ground (how many 310+ WHP RX8's are out there really?) you must realize that things are inevitably going to go wrong...if that is too much risk don't do it! Go buy and MS3, MS6, STI, Sky Redline etc.... and keep the warranty.

On the flipside - how a vendor handles these little hiccups is at LEAST as important as the products... and BHR is pretty well known for taking care of their peeps.

Other than the fact that MM has been running them on his own car for about a year and that many of us have been beating these coils to death for the past 6 months? How would you suggest I gather the "empirical" data you are seeking?:)

The empirical data I originally asked MM for was an oscilloscope readout of the dwell & timing for the coils. Basically an actual measurement. He said he has a scope, I was wondering if he actually got around to checking the real numbers yet :)

I'm curious, since Jeff has been running these coils in his car for over a year, did he adjust the dwell settings on his originally? What issues have people been having with the stock dwell settings and the coils? Any engine failures or damage? With the issues people had with the Mazsport ignition solution I'm a bit wary of having to change the dwell settings, especially since it depends on getting an updated tune from Jeff which could take ???? weeks/months.

Relax, Aaron. We are on top of the situation and taking care of our customers in a timely fashion, starting with the F/I people.

The LS2 coils work well with the OEM/Mazda dwell settings but you only get 40mA of current. The Yukons, while being capable of 120 mA, require a slight dwell adjustement to derive this. The deal with the Mazsport kit wasn't the fact that dwell adjustments were required. It was something else and we don't have that issue with the BHR kit.

From what I have read...they require about 5ms to charge to almost max saturation......any more than that doesn't do much except heat up the coil.....

Anything else we need to know??

Nope.

^you got my pm Ray...correct?

Yep.

werd.

"All PMs replied".

I just never said how soon......:lol2:

Many thanks to those who alerted us to this issue in the first place, most notably Nuke0907 and 05rex8.

Charles,

i just found this thread. i haven't packed up my coils yet. so you are saying there is a possible fix now?

i will be willing to try your coils again if you'd like. i do have an AP now and i'm doing a turbo setup soon, so i could really use these.

Nope.

Man of few words :)

Nope I'm wrong .... Or nope...that's all we need to know ;)

So here's another question.....what is the available dwell time at 9000 RPM on a rotary engine?

Seems like its quite a bit less than 5ms anyway.....

Jeff...I know your math is a lot better than mine :)

/\ 6.67 ms

That assumes no spark duration and possible " quiet time" between the end of spark and start of recharge...

Should still get near 5ms I suppose :)

That assumes no spark duration and possible " quiet time" between the end of spark and start of recharge...

Should still get near 5ms I suppose :)

BUT your past the torque peak... so not as huge of an issue.

a little bit scared at the beginning but..................hope BHR find a solution soon

a little bit scared at the beginning but..................hope BHR find a solution soon
I thought that there was/is a solution and that BHR had announced it. NA cars are not effected. FI cars will need a tweak to the dwell. MM where are you:)

With regard to MM; Atlas has been forced to shrug. Take that as a bellweather.

As regards the rest of your questions; 5 ms, works like a charm, we've run the numbers and tested them on several cars at the track. If you burn a coil HR has a warranty on them. We asked ourselves the same things weeks ago when we all set about devising a "solution" and it is working fine. No need for any further drama.

Hey Charles, not to rush or anything. But do you have a time frame on when us F/I guys will get our fix so we can reinstall?

In about 7-10 days but there are no guarantees except to say that this is my #1 issue to deal with right now.

Ok Charles, thank you!

Allow me to also say that we will be starting with the F/I guys and working our way through the list.

If you are not using MM's "Calibration" service, set your dwell to 5 mS and if you have concerns about coil dwell at higher RPMs you can trim the dwell a bit above about 7,200 RPMs.

If your dwell is set higher than the time remaining to charge...doesn't it just stop charging at that point and fire?.....ie If there is only 4.5ms...it would run OK

If the dwell is set too short that would be where the problem would come in with the coil not charging enough....

The amount of dwell commanded and the point in "time" at which the coil fires are two different things.

I just learned about this and it's no surprise to see BHR backing up their products the way they do it : their repution speaks for itself.

I may have missed something in this thread : does the 'fix' applies as well to stock/OEM settings? (category 2?)

WOW!!! well hopefully next year i will be able to drive to arizona and have jeff tune my car/ instlal my turbo kit =] by then i hope this issue is long gone forgotten!! i trust my baby in you alls hands.

thanks for staying behind your product charles! again another valiant act from a great team! mine have been running great..

I may have missed something in this thread : does the 'fix' applies as well to stock/OEM settings? (category 2?)

1) If you are N/A without any reflash or other EMS, you will be fine. Of those who had issues my PM survey indicated that the vast majority of them ended up having plug wire problems (that I have since resolved) or got new engines from Mazda. If you are in this category but have nitrous, you'll still be fine.

2) If you are N/A and have a reflash or other way of adjusting the dwell, set it to 5 mS and you are likely to see small improvments. If you are in this category and are using nitrous you, too, will see improvements. If you are using the MM "Calibration Service" we will be sending you an updated map at our expense.

3) The F/I guys NEED to set the dwell at 5 mS and those using the MM "Calibration Service" will be getting the updated maps, first.

Have I forgotten any group?

......by then i hope this issue is long gone forgotten!!

In the next couple weeks people will probably be reporting the gains they experience and, after THAT, we can move on to the next scandal/drama/product release/whatever. :lol2:

Come on CRH, this oversight happened when MM brought the girls over to help assemble kits, didn't it!

And the vision of Flashwing's car as a mule fits perfectly!

The ignition upgrade looks perfect with this support.

1) If you are N/A without any reflash or other EMS, you will be fine. Of those who had issues my PM survey indicated that the vast majority of them ended up having plug wire problems (that I have since resolved) or got new engines from Mazda. If you are in this category but have nitrous, you'll still be fine.


How is a plug wire problem translated : no engine start? misfire at low rpm? what are the symptoms basically

allow me to chime in as I've seen the plug wire problem first hand.
a broken plug wire can result in the car misfiring at idle, you'll her the exhaust sputter a bit more then usual and at very high load, the misfire is much more noticable.

If you have a timing light, it's pretty easy to test the wires.

If you have a timing light, it's pretty easy to test the wires.

I don't consider using a timing light a definitive diagnostic and I am not going to start issuing new plug wire sets based on that, alone.

why not?
if there's no induction pick up and all other probable issues have been checked; ground wire, wire harness, etc then why wouldn't this be a solid method?
Unless you want us to take the wires off but then we know what will happen.

Because I have no idea as to the condition of the timing light, per se, nor the end-user's ability to use it properly.

With regard to MM; Atlas has been forced to shrug. Take that as a bellweather.Well, that sounds interesting. I, too, was wondering what's up.

Which part, the shrugging or the bellweather?

All three, the Atlas, the shrugging, and the bellwether.

If you are using the MM "Calibration Service" we will be sending you an updated map at our expense.
I assuming you are referring to the people who had their subscriptions expire.
What about those of us currently getting tunes through Jeff?
Is he just adjusting the dwell as he sends us our updated map (as long as we noted having the BHR coils on our "11 questions" sheet)?
No reason for you to send (or pay for) another updated map with us currently going through the tuning process.

I am always surprised as to how my statements are interpreted around here.

What I was trying to say was that, no matter the situation with regard to your MM "subscription", you will be all set at no expense to yourself, nor your account, as I have decided it as MY responsibility to take care of my BHR Ignition System customers. If Jeff charges me for his time that is between he and I. Let me try it THIS way;

1) If you are a customer of MM's you will get an updated map that includes the new dwell settings.
2) If you have a Cobb AP purchased elsewhere, tell your "tuner" to set the dwell to 5 mS.
3) If you have some other form of engine-management, set your dwell to 5 mS.
4) If you are N/A and have no form of re-flash/EMS, you will be fine.

If there are any two things I am good at it is taking care of my customers and organizing stuff for the best outcome.

Charles,
is it ok to say that a modded NA rx8 will have no problems with stock dwell settings but changing them will provide a further benefit?
You know that i know the answer but your words have way more power than mines here.

Yeah, something like that with the exception of 7+ PSI F/I systems.

I am really losing interest in the discussion about this and want to focus on dispatching the updated maps. To me, at this point now, the outcomes are my focus and not the discussion.

so..... what you're saying is we need maps but not everyone is getting them? :rofl:

Sorry Ray, couldn't resist.
Alright guys, lets stop beating a dead horse here, looks like the solution has been identified and I for one am EXCITED to be getting the 'fix' soon. Can't wait to see what these things are truly capable of.

QFT. Any person or company that is willing to admit to and fix previous mistakes gains respect in all levels in my book.

EVERYONE, makes mistakes. Those who learn from them are wise, and those who take responsibility for them are honored. You my friend, are both.

No sh*t man! I'm feeling like I'm about ready to drop 5 bills to get me a set, but I don't need them right now..

Charles...

Do you think you can get MM to post up a screen shot of the correct AP dwell map?

/\ heh . Good luck with that one ....

Charles...

Do you think you can get MM to post up a screen shot of the correct AP dwell map?

that's not going to happen.

I got my kit in the mail yesterday so they should be going on the car tomorrow hopefully. I'll let everyone know impressions when I have them installed. I also got my Tsunami bumper installed and the car detailed. I removed the extraneous stickers etc... the car looks.... omg amazing. Pics in a bit.

that's not going to happen.

If rotor bought BHR kit - but tunes himself with the AP why would he not get a dwell map for it????

If rotor bought BHR kit - but tunes himself with the AP why would he not get a dwell map for it????
he's not asking for a map, he wants a screen shot. Jeff isn't fond of posting screen shots of any of his AP maps.
The correct dwell setting have already been posted here. :eyetwitch

Charles...

Do you think you can get MM to post up a screen shot of the correct AP dwell map?

It is not that simple Jedi - there is a 3D Dwell Map in our PCM - not just a single number.

How about I post one up? I'll get my first draft one tonight. Though I haven't been able to test it as much as Jeff has.

doesnt the oem dwell map have a good amount of dwell in it? We Pettit guys with Cam's flash are running oem dwell settings(as far as we can tell anyway). I think we will be OK.
Seriously--I really appreciate the honesty and education present on this thread. Your business long term goal success just got bumped up a notch imho.
olddragger

Thanks Ray---good to know if I ever want to get the max out of them.
Heck my redline now is 7.5K-8K and I bumped down the plug gap a little. Still getting a 305 g/sec from my maf at 7.7K.
Sounds like the Pettits guys can benefit from this system(for sure) but for us monkey mechanics working in the backyard with the dogs/squirrels (have you ever had a discussion with a Jack Russel terrier about how we are going to get that seized bolt out?) and diy'ing it looks that we are not in any danger with the oem settings IF we dont push it any harder. 8 lbs of boost is where I am.
following with interest and gratitude.
live the good life and rotor on!
olddragger

It is not that simple Jedi - there is a 3D Dwell Map in our PCM - not just a single number.

How about I post one up? I'll get my first draft one tonight. Though I haven't been able to test it as much as Jeff has.

Here are the factory Dwell - and the Dwell Changes I have made to date.

This is why I am pretty sure that both the AP and the ProTuner are both not TRULY measuring dwell in MS - since the factory map is way above 5ms.

Since we know the factory ignition is about 3-3.8ms; I just modifyed it by 130-150% and smoothed it some. It works great on PunisherRX8's car.

Also the Yukon coils have an 8ms cap on them - so you will never be able to get them to run longer than that.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137711&stc=1&d=1240679475

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137710&stc=1&d=1240679475

Once I get to the Dyno - I'll be able to adjust these some more - the goal is too keep backing the dwell down until I lose some power / get misfires... that will tell me for the car they are on - what is the minimum dwell I can get away with.

PS - If Ray wants me to remove this I will - it is his thread after all.

sweet! keep us updated

Just like the economy :)

Good luck!

This is why I am pretty sure that both the AP and the ProTuner are both not TRULY measuring dwell in MS - since the factory map is way above 5ms.

Since we know the factory ignition is about 3-3.8ms; I just modifyed it by 130-150% and smoothed it some. It works great on PunisherRX8's car.
]

very interesting Kane . How did you get the 3-3.8ms figure for the factory dwell ?
I had always thought the factory dwell map was reading like this 595 = 5.95ms ....

very interesting Kane . How did you get the 3-3.8ms figure for the factory dwell ?
I had always thought the factory dwell map was reading like this 595 = 5.95ms ....

I did too - but some areas made me think.

1) The int-x setting for the factory ignition = 3.0 to 3.8 ms dwell.

2) Jeff scoped the PCM and saw a 3ms signal.

3) 3 - The PCM Troubleshooting manual has some information about the ignition characteristics which seem to indicate the 3-4 ish MS Dwell Times since the entire ignition sequence takes just under 5ms including discharge at idle.

Then look over at the PCM info - and at full voltage at idle we see 1200-1100 ish... so IMO is is a scalar of some kind.

or do they fire the coild hard because of really rich a/f's on the oem set up?
ODmi

Amended...please see Ray's comments below. Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this "situation" Flash.
You answered a couple of my questions.

yes thanks to all--GREAT help here.
OD

Charles 1 - Flashwong 0
Ready,
Fight!

$5 on Flashwing!
any man who can drink BEER like him, surely can throw down. ;)

WTF?!
First Brice calls me a douche bag now you calll me an idiot.
Well, at least it proves I'm an equal opportunity hater.

haha, but then I'd have to ban myself when I pick on the stupid.

http://www.thoughttheater.com/StupidIsAsStupidDoes.jpg

haha, but then I'd have to ban myself when I pick on the stupid.

Works for me!

Looks like being on the Darkside has brought the worst out of you ObeeWan.

Think of the good force.

Mu ha ha..........

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137710&stc=1&d=1240679475

Just as a FYI to everyone...

These dwell settings are not endorced by Black Halo Racing and should not be considered as the official numbers to be used in this application. Any dwell settings other than what we've already released will come directly from us.

I've been reading through these threads regarding the use of LS2 coils since my girlfriend just bought an 05 RX-8 and the start-up has been very sluggish.

I own an 05 GTO, and I have to say that the GM coils are extremely efficient coils. There are plenty of high horsepower LS motors running 600+ horsepower to the rear wheels on the stock ignition system. The MSDs don't provide much more than added bling under the hood.

Save your money and go with the stock LS2 coils. They are very good coils, and will hold up to whatever you throw at them.

Just as a FYI to everyone...

These dwell settings are not endorced by Black Halo Racing and should not be considered as the official numbers to be used in this application. Any dwell settings other than what we've already released will come directly from us.

How about some settings that are endorsed?

/\ Nope - all secret squirrel stuff around here mate ... :lol:

^ what's a secret squirrel?

^ what's a secret squirrel?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Y8m29ZLX5ag/RrvuY5OYusI/AAAAAAAAApk/JDCGPqJ_wYI/s400/SECRET+SQUIRREL+TITLE+CARD+300+dpi.jpg

Secret Squirrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VSdwZxSNs&feature=related)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Y8m29ZLX5ag/RrvuY5OYusI/AAAAAAAAApk/JDCGPqJ_wYI/s400/SECRET+SQUIRREL+TITLE+CARD+300+dpi.jpg

Secret Squirrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VSdwZxSNs&feature=related)

And this solves the issue how?

Sorry to be a dick - but this run around is starting to get under my skin.

Capitalism = proprietary. Taken to extremes, you can even buy and sell people, not just their knowledge and experience. But Atlas stands up straight sometimes too.

Capitalism = proprietary. Taken to extremes, you can even buy and sell people, not just their knowledge and experience. But Atlas stands up straight sometimes too.

That is fine - this is my problem...from the other thread I posted Dwell Info

Fundamental misunderstanding in how the dwell table works here.
Fundamental misunderstanding in how the coils fire.
Fundamental misunderstanding in what the Yukon coils "need" for dwell time.

There is so much FUBAR info in this thread I can't even look at it without my head hurting, hence my post here.

Try actually scoping the output before you make such drastic assumptions about how all of this works.
Also, do the math on what the dwell "requirements" are. Don't forget to include what the spark voltage requirement is to jump the gap under operating conditions. You will see why there is no need to concern yourself with dwell settings in an NA application and why it only matters at 300g/sec + from 4200 RPM until 6800 RPM.

Cool... uh - thanks for the help.... now all I need is a oscilliscope in order to make a vendors "coil kit" work and or pay $300 bucks to have it tuned by the expert - seems like a fair deal for a plug and play kit. :Wconfused :Wconfused :Wconfused

Look -

A whole bunch of crap has been pushed out onto this board about how this thing works and when it doesn't.
Much of this is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what the BHR kit is supposed to do and how.

As designed (and for the application for which it was designed), it works exactly as advertised.
If you lack the proper tools to modify the system and the tuning to suit a purpose beyond that which the system was designed to address, than you are shit out of luck.

So the BHR kit is not designed for FI applications that push more than 300 g/sec at or about the torque peak? I coulda sworn that was the point of this ignition.

And this solves the issue how?

Sorry to be a dick - but this run around is starting to get under my skin.
Maybe they don't know. MM was suppose to have been running these for the past year and the problems weren't found till they got into the field on others cars.

I don't know - BHR sells coils - not dwell settings . The more open they are with info the more coils they will sell ...
IMHO

I should add - that I set the Dwell to 5ms on the Int-X and the coils work like a raped ape!!!

So they work!!! But if my dwell table (3D Flash Style) is wrong then help a PAYING customer out here... I don't need my fuckin car tuned; I need a dwell map for the ignition I paid for. And I sure as hell don't need to be told I am stupid - I know I am stupid!!! That is why I pay smarter people to design products for my car.

Diversification of labor is a win-win for everybody.

BTW what is a FUBAR ? Some kind of fast food outlet that sells drinks ?

F... Up Beyond All Repair

F... Up Beyond All Repair

almost: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBAR

now that's all cleared up - on with the debate ...............

I should add - that I set the Dwell to 5ms on the Int-X and the coils work like a raped ape!!!


That's exactly what we have been saying. Since we know that the Yukon coils can operate well up to the 5ms range we suggested using that value to eliminate any problems you might have.

Kane, what it sounds like you're asking is not what the dwell settings should be but instead you're asking how the AP pro tuner works regarding the dwell settings. Is this correct?

That's exactly what we have been saying. Since we know that the Yukon coils can operate well up to the 5ms range we suggested using that value to eliminate any problems you might have.

Kane, what it sounds like you're asking is not what the dwell settings should be but instead you're asking how the AP pro tuner works regarding the dwell settings. Is this correct?

Nope - I am asking for the equivalent changes to the factory PCM (via Cobb, Hymee whatever) to equate to the already published 5ms duration.

If you guys say add 50%, 20%, 1000% whatever or show a screen cap - binary etc... something to tell the folks not using Jeff's tuning service how to fix the dwell issue then we are good.

Nope - I am asking for the equivalent changes to the factory PCM (via Cobb, Hymee whatever) to equate to the already published 5ms duration.

If you guys say add 50%, 20%, 1000% whatever or show a screen cap - binary etc... something to tell the folks not using Jeff's tuning service how to fix the dwell issue then we are good.

Ok, I'll see what I or other BHR team members can come up with. I know we started by simple increasing by X percent but MazdaManiac has done additional testing and made modifications since then.

I'll see if I can come up with a concrete percentage and over what RPM range.

Thank you Flashwing/wong.

I should add - that I set the Dwell to 5ms on the Int-X and the coils work like a raped ape!!!


hehehe...a raped ape..good one. I just thought that was funny...Please continue...

Just curious if the updated dwell set up are being in installed in the kits

Just curious if the updated dwell set up are being in installed in the kits

Dwell settings are not part of the physical ignition coil, it is a setting which is adjusted in the tune of your Rx8 and can only be changed using some form of enging management such as the accessport, EMU, interceptor-x etc.

What I meant was, the dwell set up I choose for resistance 4,5,6. Or 7 on the BHR kit how far will the BHR kit resist.

I have read and received from other users that 4 is moderate. And that 7 is just
Abusing the coils.


Just thought this would be an interested subject


Dwell settings are not part of the physical ignition coil, it is a setting which is adjusted in the tune of your Rx8 and can only be changed using some form of enging management such as the accessport, EMU, interceptor-x etc.

We suggest dwell settings of 5 miliseconds as this keeps the coil within it's effective range without generating excessive heat.

I thought we were good too; but Jeff commented on the inaccuracy of the dwell map that I changed for Bobby's car; so I asked for more info.

...
Here's the problem for BHR; since we don't deal with Hymee and we have no way of ensuring the accuracy of EMSs which we do not use on a daily basis we can ONLY offer the proper dwell settings and NOT the end percentages. How do we know that anything other than the systems that Jeff is familiar with are accurate as to the info seen on the 3D grids or anywhere else in the software? The AP shows one thing but the Hymee may be different.:dunno:

they show exactly the same table and values. the std table in the cob software doesn't look like dwell in ms however they label it as such. I think that is where kanes issue is. if you don't know what the numbers are then it is hard to make the correct change.

actual you could just send the revised dwell table to pro-tuner users who have bought your kit and they can paste the map in.

actual you could just send the revised dwell table to pro-tuner users who have bought your kit and they can paste the map in.

yeh - and we could pwomise not to look at the numbers - :lol:

this whole fiasco could be solved with one screenshot... and the only thing "at risk" would be selling more coil kits by telling people "hey this is exactly what to do to get the best performance out of them".

why such a simple concept is failing here is beyond my comprehension

Great advise, will make sure this is done


We suggest dwell settings of 5 miliseconds as this keeps the coil within it's effective range without generating excessive heat.

^^ I agree with you....there is a penalty to be paid either way..if you remain quiet there is hell to pay..and if you tell all..it's never enough, and someone will FU and break something...and blame it on you.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. We are talking about a dwell map FOR YOUR coil package and it should not need to be a secret from the people who purchased them. We are not talking about a tuning guide or better dwell maps for OEM or other aftermarket solution. We are just talking about a way to actually get the benefit many of us bought into without having to go through a 3rd party to make them work.

"5ms" does not mean squat to anyone who is using a reflashed stock pcm nor would it mean anything to any AccessPORT Tuner probably besides Jeff.

Just an observation.

If such info was made public before adequate testing is done, to the point where BHR is confident that it is idiot proof, and with as many angles covered/considered prior to release - we'd come back to square one as there will be idots out there (like myself) who would potentially get something wrong anyway AND blame it on the product rather than our own idiocy.

I respect the fact that they have come out with a statement claiming responsibility.

Note that I have my own customers on BHR coils who are calling/emailing me constantly for assurances that the coils are fine, wont blow their cars up, etc so I DO have a vested interest in wanting that info too.

But I'd rather give BHR the time that they need to resolve the issue properly then rush them and get a solution that may potentially give me more headaches.

To each his own I guess.

/\ do you really have a Greddy TC at 1.5 bar ??????????????

this whole fiasco could be solved with one screenshot... and the only thing "at risk" would be selling more coil kits by telling people "hey this is exactly what to do to get the best performance out of them".

why such a simple concept is failing here is beyond my comprehension

Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. We are talking about a dwell map FOR YOUR coil package and it should not need to be a secret from the people who purchased them. We are not talking about a tuning guide or better dwell maps for OEM or other aftermarket solution. We are just talking about a way to actually get the benefit many of us bought into without having to go through a 3rd party to make them work.

"5ms" does not mean squat to anyone who is using a reflashed stock pcm nor would it mean anything to any AccessPORT Tuner probably besides Jeff.

Ok, while I might appear I'm picking on rotor here, I think his comments are at the heart of the issue here.

First, as I have said time and time again...BHR's position is the suggest dwell settings should be 5ms of dwell at the very least around your torque peak for anyone that's running more than 300 g/s in that area. Increasing dwell in all areas of the power band will no doubt help but the torque peak is the critical area we're focusing on.

"Ok, so why doesn't BHR just hand over screenshots of the dwell tables for the AP?"

Because it's a support issue.

When I'm not playing with my RX8, I'm an IT professional providing high level support in a datacenter. We have guidelines of support and there are things we can't do and things we can do when it comes to customers. As such, I realized what's being asked is for BHR to provide technical support beyond our coil product.

Here's an example following the logic I've seen in this thread:

You buy a turbo kit from Greddy for your RX8. Now, it's impossible to use your turbo kit using the RX8's stock PCM so it's the responsibility of the customer to provide engine management and tuning. While greddy provides the emanage, they don't tell you how to tune the car.

So, you get the turbo installed but you don't have any idea what the car should be tuned to. So you call greddy and ask "what air/fuel rations should I run with your turbo kit?" Greddy says they suggest 11.5:1 air/fuel. Then you ask greddy...

"Ok, 11.5:1 sounds good but I have no idea how to tell my PCM to make my air/fuel 11.5:1 so can you just send me a screen shot of your RX8 fuel tables and I'll just copy/paste that into my tuning software?"

Of course the guy on the phone is going to tell you he can't do that. Even if they had that information sitting next to them.

Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. If you're a cross customer of MazdaManiac then you can get him to alter the settings for you. If you're using Hymee's software I would talk to Hymee about getting that information.

Otherwise, I've given the necessary dwell settings above.



Note that I have my own customers on BHR coils who are calling/emailing me constantly for assurances that the coils are fine, wont blow their cars up, etc so I DO have a vested interest in wanting that info too.
.

If there's any doubts I would refer them to a post Jeff made regarding the level of testing that's been conducted on these coils. Also every one of us here at BHR are running these coils in our RX8's. Mine is daily driven while all our cars are tracked on a fairly regular basis.

I won't say a word. :wallbash:

they show exactly the same table and values. the std table in the cob software doesn't look like dwell in ms however they label it as such.

They both show the same numerical values, but they don't correspond to actual time or a scalar value.

The Hymee system actually lables it as ms and that's wrong.

Get out there, scope the coil input and rev the motor up and down while parked.
You will be surprised what the actual dwell values are.
Then, do the math for spark voltage and figure out for yourself what the values are.

Though Flashwing makes some good points, my main issue with "releasing" this information is strictly that I don't believe those that want it deserve to get it that easily.
Who did I ask to cough this up for me?
F-ing lazy bastards.

They both show the same numerical values, but they don't correspond to actual time or a scalar value.

The Hymee system actually lables it as ms and that's wrong.

so does cobbs access tuner it's also wrong ..


Get out there, scope the coil input and rev the motor up and down while parked.
You will be surprised what the actual dwell values are.
Then, do the math for spark voltage and figure out for yourself what the values are.


the rx-8 community will one day have the info through the generosity of the community, that's the great thing about freedom of information and sharing.

... Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. ...Where your analogy fails a little bit is that BHR already sold these coils assuring customers that the dwell characteristics were similar to stock and that these kinds of adjustments wouldn't need to be made. Does that change your responsibility for making more info public now or trying to support other products? I don't know. Just trying to help you understand others' apparent frustration.

What the hell are you people talking about? This has been 8 pages of crap.

How about this.... Start a new thread....

Question -- Can some one help me with Access Tuner regarding dwel times for "X" coils.

Perhaps Request a DIY? Maybe in the Access tuner page? Asking some one strait out to just do something implies that you are holding them responsible if anything happens and then all that happens is they get defensive and worry that they are heading down a road of liability.

Thats just my thoughts.

Here's an example following the logic I've seen in this thread:

You buy a turbo kit from Greddy for your RX8. Now, it's impossible to use your turbo kit using the RX8's stock PCM so it's the responsibility of the customer to provide engine management and tuning. While greddy provides the emanage, they don't tell you how to tune the car.

So, you get the turbo installed but you don't have any idea what the car should be tuned to. So you call greddy and ask "what air/fuel rations should I run with your turbo kit?" Greddy says they suggest 11.5:1 air/fuel. Then you ask greddy...

"Ok, 11.5:1 sounds good but I have no idea how to tell my PCM to make my air/fuel 11.5:1 so can you just send me a screen shot of your RX8 fuel tables and I'll just copy/paste that into my tuning software?"

Of course the guy on the phone is going to tell you he can't do that. Even if they had that information sitting next to them.

Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. If you're a cross customer of MazdaManiac then you can get him to alter the settings for you. If you're using Hymee's software I would talk to Hymee about getting that information.

Otherwise, I've given the necessary dwell settings above.


Ok, I will go along with your little example.

If I would have bought a Greddy Turbo kit, they would have supplied me with an unlocked basemap on the e-manage blue to make what I just bought actually work! If mazda would have better consistency in their cars (like say VW where one flash actually fits all) the base map would actually have worked well too! But anyway, we are not talking about tuning a fuel map now are we? We are talking about a dwell map that should be a set and forget map for anyone with the BHR coils and being good for only the people using these yukon coils.


I'm officially done with this

Where your analogy fails a little bit is that BHR already sold these coils assuring customers that the dwell characteristics were similar to stock and that these kinds of adjustments wouldn't need to be made. Does that change your responsibility for making more info public now or trying to support other products? I don't know. Just trying to help you understand others' apparent frustration.

You're completly correct. I'm not, at any point, suggesting that the customer is responsible for our mistake and our customers shouldn't bear the consequences. What I'm seeing, in at least the case of the accessport, is a belief that since the AP and the ignition upgrade both are sold by BHR that we sould simply provide cross support for both these products at the same time.

As stated previously, what's really being asked of us is to provide the precise data inputs which when entered into the AP pro-tuner software would yield the dwell settings that we've suggested. I see no other reason that can be disputed because we've already provided the actual dwell settings which we believe will fix the problem.

As stated previously, what's really being asked of us is to provide the precise data inputs which when entered into the AP pro-tuner software would yield the dwell settings that we've suggested. I see no other reason that can be disputed because we've already provided the actual dwell settings which we believe will fix the problem.

I don't really care that you offer both products. I care that the one was sold as a product that works as a plug&play device with the stock dwell settings. Now I'm told it doesn't work well with those settings.

BHR has a product it released which is flawed. It also has the information to correct the flaws at hand for a particular group of owners who are using Cobb's tunes (or self-made tunes or tunes by a non-BHR associated tuner). I know I would have never bought the kit had I been required to get a tune to my AP to get the full use of the kit.

Is it really too much to ask for a screenshot of the appropriate settings in the most popular tuning device? Information that you have on hand and that can't be used by anyone who hasn't purchased the BHR Ignition Kit?

It's bad enough that I have to start tuning my car before I feel comfortable doing so. Why make it worse and withhold information that you have on hand?

I think Ray did the right thing letting us know the problem. But teasing us with the solution and not providing it seems a step backwards.

I subscribed to this thread to keep abreast of the the potential or real problems with the BHR coils. I may have missed them but have not really seen any posters with a real problem. What I think I am reading is a group that feels that an installation instruction (FI users should adjust their dwell) should be done by the manufacturer or supplier. Gee that would be nice if all purchases came with installation and any changes in the instructions were done by the manufacturer or supplier. You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.

I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.

It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.

It's bad enough that I have to start tuning my car before I feel comfortable doing so. Why make it worse and withhold information that you have on hand?

I think Ray did the right thing letting us know the problem. But teasing us with the solution and not providing it seems a step backwards.

RK, by looking at your modifications it appears your car is N/A correct? Have you had any issues with your BHR ignition upgrade? If not, technically there's no reason to adjust your dwell settings. This situation has been, and for the most part, remains an issue for only those who are turbo or supercharged.

Is there any added benefit to adjusting your dwell settings N/A? I don't know. The adjustments I made on my own RX8 didn't yield any changes that I could tell.

I don't want anyone who is N/A thinking that their upgrade isn't working properly without these changes. Unless you're flowing more than 300 g/s of air it's not something you should worry about.

I subscribed to this thread to keep abreast of the the potential or real problems with the BHR coils. I may have missed them but have not really seen any posters with a real problem. What I think I am reading is a group that feels that an installation instruction (FI users should adjust their dwell) should be done by the manufacturer or supplier. Gee that would be nice if all purchases came with installation and any changes in the instructions were done by the manufacturer or supplier. You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.

I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.

It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.

Of all explanations..this seems to make the most sense. Good post.

Flashwing - I have had problems with the difference between the OEM ignition and the BHR ignition system. They were addressed by upgrading my battery and starter. The problems indicate that there aren't a whole lot of 04s being used to test the BHR system. Telling me to not worry about a known mismatch of the BHR system and OEM dwell settings doesn't really sit well with me. Telling me that you don't feel a difference when your car has the change in dwell settings misses the point completely. I don't want to feel a change. I want to know that I won't start seeing issues 3 months down the road due to this and that the FI applications just happened to see these issues before the NA applications. It's not like I'm driving around a bone stock 8 either.

Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.

I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.

You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.

I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.

I purchased a set of upgraded coils advertised to provide a more reliable and complete ignition system with the OEM settings.

Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.

And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.

If I would have bought a Greddy Turbo kit, they would have supplied me with an unlocked basemap on the e-manage blue to make what I just bought actually work!

IIRC, GReddy sent locked maps in their kits and they may still do that.

Anyone who feels shortchanged or cheated by BHR may contact me for a resolution. Anyone.

Flashwing - I have had problems with the difference between the OEM ignition and the BHR ignition system. They were addressed by upgrading my battery and starter. The problems indicate that there aren't a whole lot of 04s being used to test the BHR system. Telling me to not worry about a known mismatch of the BHR system and OEM dwell settings doesn't really sit well with me. Telling me that you don't feel a difference when your car has the change in dwell settings misses the point completely. I don't want to feel a change. I want to know that I won't start seeing issues 3 months down the road due to this and that the FI applications just happened to see these issues before the NA applications. It's not like I'm driving around a bone stock 8 either.

Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.

I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.



I purchased a set of upgraded coils advertised to provide a more reliable and complete ignition system with the OEM settings.

Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.

And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.
I don't want to get into a pissing match with anyone. I look at it as an instruction with the new setting being given to you. I do not see the coralation between a faulty battery, starter and a coil set but for shits and giggles let me agree with you. Now I see that you have an AP and my guess is that you did not purchase it from MM. Now let me ask you if you received free maps from the person or agency that you purchased it from?

I did look at your "garage" and did not see any item on your list of mods, except for the AP, that would have caused any change from stock. The only reason I did not include the AP as I have no idea what kind of tune you have.

What your asking for is for Ray or MM to supply you with a complete new tune for your AP. Can't see that happening (unless you purchased it from MM). When you purchased the Revi did racing beat come out and install it? or did you get a set of instructions. Instructions change over time as the manufacturer sees need for improvements.

I installed my coils and I have an issue due my boosted setup. I knew I would have an issue buying these coils until a remedy would fix it. I knew what that solution was and was well informed prior to my purchase. I installed the kit and my car ran much smoother that it did on the OEM coils. I have an AFR issue in boost but that is what I knew would be a problem. I was informed the issue will be fixed and I can wait. Everytime I have sent MM or Ray a pm my questions have been returned with a phone call or a pm reply. Those who say they were told the coils will "work" but not suggest they dont are wrong. They do work and they are better than stock. For the boosteed folks the stock coils needed to be replaced near 300hp anyway and we know there was a dwell setting issue because a select few found out the hard way with Mazsport. Even after extensive testing with the Mazsport coils an engine had to be rebuilt because of the damage from the coils. For N/A guys they work fine as some have stated. For boosted guys wait on your map and if you havent paid for the service then pay for it. Like others said you paid for coils not an engine management. Why all this complaining? It isn't like you kept in the dark about this, hence the first post.

What your asking for is for Ray or MM to supply you with a complete new tune for your AP.

That is not at all what I'm asking for or anyone else in this thread has asked for from BHR. We're just asking for the appropriate chart for the AP so I can adjust the settings to my existing tune. I don't believe dwell settings change on MM tunes unless the buyer had a different ignition system (ie. Mazsport). So what MM is supplying is the same tune with different dwell settings.

Since even Kane (and everyone else so far) is getting ripped on as an idiot by MM in another thread on his attempt to change the settings to meet the 5ms spec it's safe to say this is more complex then just 'set it to 5ms'.

I know that if the dwell setting is too high the coils will retain heat and reduce their life significantly. Since this is too low my understanding is that the power specced for these coils isn't there. Hopefully they are supplying enough spark to keep the engine running but I have personal doubts at how healthy that is in the long run.

All I see is no one has the know how to set the dwell to 5 Ms.

So who's tuning your cars? I'd be worried.

That is not at all what I'm asking for or anyone else in this thread has asked for from BHR. We're just asking for the appropriate chart for the AP so I can adjust the settings to my existing tune. I don't believe dwell settings change on MM tunes unless the buyer had a different ignition system (ie. Mazsport). So what MM is supplying is the same tune with different dwell settings.

Since even Kane (and everyone else so far) is getting ripped on as an idiot by MM in another thread on his attempt to change the settings to meet the 5ms spec it's safe to say this is more complex then just 'set it to 5ms'.

I know that if the dwell setting is too high the coils will retain heat and reduce their life significantly. Since this is too low my understanding is that the power specced for these coils isn't there. Hopefully they are supplying enough spark to keep the engine running but I have personal doubts at how healthy that is in the long run.
Respectfully, we see things differently it is obvious. I see MMs calculations as being privileged as he did the calculations and all the work. Since tuning is now his profession, I would think that he needs to protect his work.
I think I saw a post from BHR that they will resolve all problems if you felt cheated or short changed and while you are not saying it you are implying that feeling. I think I would carry this to BHR for resolution by PM.

since everyone seems to have an oscilliscope handy in Az, how about at screenshot of a stock coil output vs an undercharged yukon coil?

It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.

:arcadefre

so does cobbs access tuner it's also wrong ..

No it doesn't. There is no value assigned to the data, just the RPM and voltage axes.

The problems indicate that there aren't a whole lot of 04s being used to test the BHR system.

ALL of the initial testing was done on an '04

since everyone seems to have an oscilliscope handy in Az, how about at screenshot of a stock coil output vs an undercharged yukon coil?

Why? We are talking about the trigger, not the coil output.
Plus, its the result under load that is the question, not the actual coil output.
There are already plenty of places to 'scope traces of the Yukon coil's output at all possible dwell settings.

No it doesn't. There is no value assigned to the data, just the RPM and voltage axes.



try the "help" file :eyetwitch

try the "help" file :eyetwitch

There's a help file?
I don't think I ever thought to click on that... [reading]

Well, they blew it there (like most of that manual). I wish they had actually used my edits.
Look at it this way - Do you REALLY believe the OE ignition dwell at idle and 14v is 1.1 seconds?

Respectfully, we see things differently it is obvious. I see MMs calculations as being privileged as he did the calculations and all the work. Since tuning is now his profession, I would think that he needs to protect his work.

I agree.

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2528647&postcount=3211

Without tooting my horn too hard - I created the BHR ignition.
Its CRH's marketing prowess that is making it available to you all.
I've been running the system since February.
It doesn't require anything special from the calibration unlike some other options out there

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2489970&postcount=2885

If your aftermarket supplier does not furnish you with dwell information when you purchase a set of coils, they are doing you an injustice.

And I owe an apology to Ray. I thought he determined that the OEM dwell settings would work and provide the gains that justified switching to the Yukon coils. Turns out he just listened to MM. Now at least I understand why he's giving his clients free adjustments.

And the Mazsport ignition solution 'worked' with OEM settings too.

As for a refund I'll see if I can figure out the dwell settings first. I'm sure Ray would do me right. Never a doubt about him in respect to how he conducts his business.

When we deemed the LS2s to be our coil of choice (for several reasons), and before we began production, I ran into the Yukon coils as another option and assumed (which is where I screwed up) that their operational properties were the exact same as the LS2s except with much higher electrical output.

Read the bold section. MM designed the harness. MM and Easy designed the brackets. It was I, and I alone, who made the unilateral change in the middle of development and THAT is why I am assuming full responsibility for dealing with the issue. There is not ONE SINGLE PERSON who has the Yukon kit who can say that BHR has blown them off, covered-up the issue, or otherwise shirked our responsibilities. NOT A SINGLE ONE.

Therefore, RK, you do not owe anybody an apology. Certainly not me, anyway.

If your aftermarket supplier does not furnish you with dwell information when you purchase a set of coils, they are doing you an injustice.
And I have.
That does NOT mean I have to do the work for you.

I don't even own a set of coils and was sold on getting a set this year. After this and the HUGE cahones Charles has for publicly admitting a mistake, I'm definitely sold as a BHR fanboy! Anyone that can openly admit a mistake like that is someone that can be trusted to do right by the customer.

Cheers BHR! Keep up the good work, great products, and excellent service.

I have the Mazsport coils and now believe they were at least in part , the reason I blew my motor back in November(me being the other reason) . I'm not sure but I do suspect the dwell settings had something to do with that as there was nothing actually wrong with the coils/ignitor .
About the same time as I got back on the road (lots of time , money and effort later) the BHR coils came out - hmmm I thought - I'll wait and see if these are the answer but not leap in like i did the last time .
I have had pms from at least two BHR users with turbos who had issues with the coils so I know there are issues with them in an FI application .

Question : If I bought a set of coils from BHR , would I also get the necessary dwell information to plug into my Hymee Pro Tuner or would I be expected to figure out something that it seems only one person in the entire world (outside of Mazda) has been able to work out so far ?
If not - someone please give me one good reason why I would even contemplate buying these coils .......

I have the Mazsport coils and now believe they were at least in part , the reason I blew my motor back in November(me being the other reason) . I'm not sure but I do suspect the dwell settings had something to do with that as there was nothing actually wrong with the coils/ignitor .

Incorrect dwell is not likely to "blow" your motor.
You just get incomplete ignition and it goes flat.
I've intentionally under-dwelled my setup and all it does is jack the EGTs way up.



Question : If I bought a set of coils from BHR , would I also get the necessary dwell information to plug into my Hymee Pro Tuner or would I be expected to figure out something that it seems only one person in the entire world (outside of Mazda) has been able to work out so far ?
If not - someone please give me one good reason why I would even contemplate buying these coils .......

Yes. I would tell you to turn the net coil dwell up to 5ms.
How yo actually do that is up to you.
I don't support the Hymee software as I am not a tuner that utilizes it, I do not own it and I am not familiar with it.
Perhaps Hymee could help you out with that since he should, in theory, understand how the Mazda dwell table actually works.

Everyone is acting like I'm not saying what to do about this "issue" if you are looking to play around with it.
Five f-ing milliseconds.
Just do it.
If you don't know how to do it, what is the compelling reason for me to show you how?
Put the gun to your head and pull the trigger. You don't need my instruction.

Everyone is acting like I'm not saying what to do about this "issue" if you are looking to play around with it.
Five f-ing milliseconds.
Just do it.
If you don't know how to do it, what is the compelling reason for me to show you how?
Put the gun to your head and pull the trigger. You don't need my instruction.

So we'll just plug in the 5ms into the magic field into whatever tuning software we use. Sweet. Thanks for that.

The compelling reason should be that you could save people a lot of wasted time by either explaining the relationship of the values in the dwell setting tables or by showing a 'BHR Coil' dwell setting table.

You're right that eventually someone will figure it out. Which is why it's so stupid that you won't help. You don't gain anything by not helping, you make BHR appear significantly less responsive to customer support, and you don't get to do your favorite thing and toot your own horn. It's one thing when your philosophy is applied to general tuning or AP tuning. It's another thing when your philosophy is applied to supporting a product you helped manufacture.

The problem, RK, is that we don't have near the experience with the other tuning softwares out there and it would be rather simple for anyone to contact GReddy, Microtech, Hymee, etc., and ask THEM how to go about getting the dwell we are specifying. I can see the conflict as it relates to the Cobb and that is a hair-splitter, for sure, and I am not sure what my individual opinion is. Kane has one perspective, Jeff another, mine is in-between, and so forth.

As has been said already, I am screwed no matter which way I turn or which decision I make so......:dunno:

RK. Let me be honest with you.

You have no business going FI.

Not only have you demonstrated a lack of understanding of engine management software, you've demonstrated an outright refusal even try to understand what people are telling you over and over and over.

Part of doing it yourself is figuring it out on your own. That's why people are willing to pay people like MM to fly out to their home and install a and tune a FI solution for them. if MM spent all his time hand holding people DIY'ing it, and figuring out the problems in their custom setups for them A: he would make no money and B: you would learn nothing about tuning a car.

I'm sick of your whining.

So we'll just plug in the 5ms into the magic field into whatever tuning software we use. Sweet. Thanks for that.

The compelling reason should be that you could save people a lot of wasted time by either explaining the relationship of the values in the dwell setting tables or by showing a 'BHR Coil' dwell setting table.

You're right that eventually someone will figure it out. Which is why it's so stupid that you won't help. You don't gain anything by not helping, you make BHR appear significantly less responsive to customer support, and you don't get to do your favorite thing and toot your own horn. It's one thing when your philosophy is applied to general tuning or AP tuning. It's another thing when your philosophy is applied to supporting a product you helped manufacture.

Why the eFF should MM know how to use whatever software your using to tune your car? And why should he be responsible for telling you how to use your tuning software? They told you what the settings should be.

He's not tuning your car for you so he's done his job in telling you what to set it at. How to set it is between you and your tuner and your software package.

How about you point the finger at the person responsible for tuning your car?:banghead:

Why can't my customers all get along? Do I have to fly each and every one of you to AZ just so we can.....:grouphug:?

So we'll just plug in the 5ms into the magic field into whatever tuning software we use. Sweet. Thanks for that.

If that is your tuning regimen, then go with it.
You certainly wouldn't be alone in adopting that philosophy.

Here's another thought from my cavernous cranium;

When somebody selects a given set of re-flash software or given version of EMS what have they implicitly decided?

Now, I can understand those whose perspectives are that the coil kit was marketed as a perfect plug-and-play upgrade and that I have some moral obligation based on that particular view. I have already posted up that I am willing to discuss an arrangement that can/will make both of us happy for those who are dissatisfied. What I am trying to wrestle with is what the REAL issue here is since I am well-known for having policies which make dealing with BHR a no-risk proposition.

Yes, for those who have held BHR in the highest of regards, I have disappointed all of you. For our competitors, I have given them what they think is an opportunity or a weakness they can exploit and they have wasted no time in doing so. Fine, and I really couldn't care less as my focus is taking care of my customers FIRST.

we are forgetting some important stuff here :

MM is back with his avatars !!!!!!

Here's another thought from my cavernous cranium;

When somebody selects a given set of re-flash software or given version of EMS what have they implicitly decided?

Now, I can understand those whose perspectives are that the coil kit was marketed as a perfect plug-and-play upgrade and that I have some moral obligation based on that particular view. I have already posted up that I am willing to discuss an arrangement that can/will make both of us happy for those who are dissatisfied. What I am trying to wrestle with is what the REAL issue here is since I am well-known for having policies which make dealing with BHR a no-risk proposition.

Yes, for those who have held BHR in the highest of regards, I have disappointed all of you. For our competitors, I have given them what they think is an opportunity or a weakness they can exploit and they have wasted no time in doing so. Fine, and I really couldn't care less as my focus is taking care of my customers FIRST.

I suppose you could offer a tuning package with MM as an additional premium service for people that want a complete tune and want to be hands off, or they need to make adjustments on their own with their tuner based on your published recommendation for dwell time.

If people choose not to purchase it then they are on their own. Personally I don't think you can be responsible for whatever people have done tuning their car or modding their car outside your control. I think as long as you provide a solution to address the issue it's back to the customer to choose what they want to pay for or what they want to do for themselves, or go to another vendor for.

RK. Let me be honest with you.

You have no business going FI.

When did this turn into a discussion about what I should and shouldn't be doing? And when did I ever say I was going FI?

You might want to scroll back a bit and read. Maybe you're confusing my posts with Brettus'.

But feel free to let Kane, Brettus, r0tor, paulmasoner, etc. know that they don't have any business going FI since most of them were struggling with figuring out dwell settings in their respective engine management systems ever since -Mazsport's- ignition problems came to light. Since they still haven't figured it out they should probably all revert back to stock.

Good luck to anyone else planning on using these coils who don't subscribe to MMs service.

I suppose you could offer a tuning package with MM as an additional premium service for people that want a complete tune and want to be hands off, or they need to make adjustments on their own with their tuner based on your published recommendation for dwell time.

If people choose not to purchase it then they are on their own. Personally I don't think you can be responsible for whatever people have done tuning their car or modding their car outside your control. I think as long as you provide a solution to address the issue it's back to the customer to choose what they want to pay for or what they want to do for themselves, or go to another vendor for.

I concur. But that's MY personal opinion.

Good luck to anyone else planning on using these coils who don't subscribe to MMs service.

I pretty sure luck has had nothing to do with the hundred or so people that have purchased this ignition system so far.
Only a small percentage of them are AP customers as well.
Even a fewer number actually need a dwell adjustment.

Question : If I bought a set of coils from BHR , would I also get the necessary dwell information to plug into my Hymee Pro Tuner or would I be expected to figure out something that it seems only one person in the entire world (outside of Mazda) has been able to work out so far ?
If not - someone please give me one good reason why I would even contemplate buying these coils .......

The answer is you don't get them because undercharged Yukon coils are not performing any better at all then stock ones. Just replace the factory ones for $100 once a year.

The answer is you don't get them because undercharged Yukon coils are not performing any better at all then stock ones. Just replace the factory ones for $100 once a year.

Excellent. And that data comes from where?
Care to show us those scope traces?

Of course not.

I love sour grapes.

Even a fewer number actually need a dwell adjustment.
I was curious how close to 300g/s I was so I tried it out on the way to work.
Lets just say I had to run my car a little 'hard' to get a maximum of 219g/s.
Now under normal driving conditions, I would not go above 170g/s.

I don't know shit about all this stuff, but if these guys are telling me I have nothing to worry about as long as I don't go above 300g/s, I feel pretty damn comfortable.
No way can I reach 300g/s on the streets being N/A.
And I pretty much maxed out my "power mods" for N/A for the basic user while on my 3rd MM AP tune, so anyone running N/A should have nothing to worry about.
And this is based off of what I gathered that the 5ms dwell setting is for anyone producing more than 300g/s (correct me if I'm wrong).

Just had a thought :
I should go down to my auto electrician and get him to find out what my dwell is at various engine rpm - from this data i should be able to modify the stock table by whatever factor is required to get the correct dwell for the coils i'm using .
Would this work MM ?

All I see is no one has the know how to set the dwell to 5 Ms.

So who's tuning your cars? I'd be worried.

Exactly.

When you do any mechanical changes (I.E parts) to your car, which require a tune it is the responsibility of the tuner to make adjustments.

You buy your coils, or injectors, then you go to a tuner, and pay them to tune for them. Period.

You don't buy a turbo expecting it to come with a Tune, Hell, you dont even buy an intake\exhaust combo and expect a tune, if thats the case Im waiting on mine as we speak.

End of the day, get off your lazy butts, do some runs, tune your car, and be thankful that BHR is even doing the right thing by giving you a better product free of charge

/after not getting an answer I just figured out that I can work all this out myself .

Wonder if I should share it with the forum ................

/after not getting an answer I just figured out that I can work all this out myself .

Wonder if I should share it with the forum ................
What would be the compelling reason to help another person?

don't know - maybe someone will loan me their sister for a night or something :dunno:

Not my sister.

Just had a thought :
I should go down to my auto electrician and get him to find out what my dwell is at various engine rpm - from this data i should be able to modify the stock table by whatever factor is required to get the correct dwell for the coils i'm using .
Would this work MM ?

Depends on the competency of the auto electrician.
If you can get actual numbers, you should be able to reverse-engineer the settings.


Wonder if I should share it with the forum ................

Dunno. Depends on if you want to deal with the beggars and those that will complain that they don't understand or that the settings don't work.
Your call.

don't know - maybe someone will loan me their sister for a night or something :dunno:

I would loan you a goat or a sheep for 5 minutes out of my sight let alone my sister .... :uhh: :hahano:

no thanks - sheep and goats kick you in the shins all the time ...

I would loan you a goat or a sheep for 5 minutes out of my sight let alone my sister .... :uhh: :hahano:

I'll loan you his sister Brett. :)

Why can't my customers all get along? Do I have to fly each and every one of you to AZ just so we can.....:grouphug:?

As long as it's after June 15th.

well heres a little personnel experience. I made my own yukon coils set up. I was pulling 305 grams/sec at approx 7.7 K(pettit s.c set up) approx 8 lbs of boost--i use a flash for the oem that does not touch the stock dwell numbers. I had no probs with starting, running,-- nothing showing. All seemed fine. I think my water meth saved me actually by lowering the intake charge temps which also would lower the egt's (remember side seals).
Learning all that has been presented here I have swapped back to the oem set up. safety 1st for me.
now my redline is low 7.5 to 8K and my temps are low. That had to have helped keep anything from showing. Point is I was ok with the yukons with my set up but why take chances?
I did not buy my set up from Ray or anything from MM--but they have very helpful in educating me through this gutsy and smart thread and PM's.
Sometimes credibility is more important than any product.
olddragger

The answer is you don't get them because undercharged Yukon coils are not performing any better at all then stock ones. Just replace the factory ones for $100 once a year.

Justin, I need you to clear some space in your PM box so I can send you a note.

don't know - maybe someone will loan me their sister for a night or something :dunno:

Watch out saying that, some of us have bitchy sisters. :banghead:

sometimes credibility is more important than any product.+1 ..

End of the day, get off your lazy butts, do some runs, tune your car, and be thankful that BHR is even doing the right thing by giving you a better product free of charge

Huh? They're just telling us the end result on how to make the product work as advertised. They're not helping anyone how to get to that end result.

And they're not giving anything out for free. MM's got bad tunes out there right now for anyone using the BHR ignition system pushing over 300 g/s. Just a smart move to get the rest of his customer base fixed up too in case he's wrong again about cars running less than that.

I don't think I've seen anyone on this forum call Jeff stupid.

I don't know shit about all this stuff, but if these guys are telling me I have nothing to worry about as long as I don't go above 300g/s, I feel pretty damn comfortable.

I feel plenty comfortable that my car isn't going to suddenly quit on me.

I don't feel that I'm getting any benefit at all with the BHR ignition system over the OEM system.

The responses here saying 'tune it and quit whining' seem to be missing the point. This wasn't advertised as a system that required tuning to have gains over the OEM system. Now, 6+ months after I ordered this, any advertised reason to get this kit for my car seems to have been thrown out the window.

It's nice that a lot of people feel a need to jump in and defend BHR but it'd be nicer if even one of them said why this kit, untuned, is an improvement over the OEM coils.

I feel plenty comfortable that my car isn't going to suddenly quit on me.

I don't feel that I'm getting any benefit at all with the BHR ignition system over the OEM system.

The responses here saying 'tune it and quit whining' seem to be missing the point. This wasn't advertised as a system that required tuning to have gains over the OEM system. Now, 6+ months after I ordered this, any advertised reason to get this kit for my car seems to have been thrown out the window.

It's nice that a lot of people feel a need to jump in and defend BHR but it'd be nicer if even one of them said why this kit, untuned, is an improvement over the OEM coils.
they are supposed to last longer than stock coils...that was the major benefit I believe

It's nice that a lot of people feel a need to jump in and defend BHR but it'd be nicer if even one of them said why this kit, untuned, is an improvement over the OEM coils.

Because "untuned", the coils are more robust, will survive considerably longer than stock and deliver more spark energy.
Next question.

...but it'd be nicer if even one of them said why this kit, untuned, is an improvement over the OEM coils.

At no point has BHR ever stated that there was an increase in "performance" with these coils. This has never been a horsepower modification. The kit was designed to provide an increase in spark energy with coils that wouldn't have to be replaced every 20,000 miles. That's the advantage over the oem coils.

The dwell issue began with forced induction applications flowing more than 300 g/s of air. It's a niche problem.

I honestly don't know how many more ways I can say this.

Why should anyone help anyone else now?

Oh look, a person drowning, I'm holding a Personal Flotation Device....Oh well

Why should anyone help anyone else now?

Oh look, a person drowning, I'm holding a Personal Flotation Device....Oh well

It's quite a stretch to say that neither myself, MazdaManiac nor anyone in BHR helps anyone.

I didn't say that at all, Todd. I'm just commenting in general about what has transpired in this thread.

Huh? They're just telling us the end result on how to make the product work as advertised. They're not helping anyone how to get to that end result.

Um no. the product works as advertised out of the box. They're telling you what target should be to get the most out of the product for tuned FI applications.

I didn't say that at all, Todd. I'm just commenting in general about what has transpired in this thread.

Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to imply that you did...I too was making a general statement. Sorry I didn't get back to my post in time! :)

this thread is completely ridiculous.
This is like bitching at Microsoft for all the fucking patches they make us download without telling us EXACTLY how it's going to help our computers or what it's going to do.
When I bought Vista it said it was an easy install, just put the CD in and go.

those freaking lying thieves! :rolleyes:

Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to imply that you did...I too was making a general statement. Sorry I didn't get back to my post in time! :)

Good, Todd. Now don't you have some hacking to get back to and Jeff has some drooling on his shirt to do??

this thread is completely ridiculous.
This is like bitching at Microsoft for all the fucking patches they make us download without telling us EXACTLY how it's going to help our computers or what it's going to do.
When I bought Vista it said it was an easy install, just put the CD in and go.

those freaking lying thieves! :rolleyes:

It's funny, Jorge, because I think that sums what both sides of the fence are feeling in this situation.

Sad thing is I could take matters into my own hands and demand that Jeff release the dwell settings for the accessport...the discussion would go something like this.

Me: "Jeff, I demand that you release the information to the public!"

Maniac: (erupts into gut wrenching laugher)

*crickets chirping*

Maniac: Go take Chewie for a walk.

^^^ that sounds about right.

I just get a kick out of the fact that people feel they're entitled to this info.

I feel plenty comfortable that my car isn't going to suddenly quit on me.

I don't feel that I'm getting any benefit at all with the BHR ignition system over the OEM system.

The responses here saying 'tune it and quit whining' seem to be missing the point. This wasn't advertised as a system that required tuning to have gains over the OEM system. Now, 6+ months after I ordered this, any advertised reason to get this kit for my car seems to have been thrown out the window.

It's nice that a lot of people feel a need to jump in and defend BHR but it'd be nicer if even one of them said why this kit, untuned, is an improvement over the OEM coils.


They last longer and don't misfire under NA applications.

Ray was supposed to have bought me a Hymee supercharger by now...where is it?

Ray was supposed to have bought me a Hymee supercharger by now...where is it?

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/warninglabel.jpg

^^^ that sounds about right.

I just get a kick out of the fact that people feel they're entitled to this info.

They were marketed as stock dwell compatible and a good replacement for FI.

They are not - Ray corrected it publically (as in this thread).

Ray and company gave the information to "fix it" IE 5ms.... which works for people such as the Int-X with only one dwell setting.

I interpolated from a few different sources the deviation from known values... and made a first pass at dwell settings which did improve drivability even in NA (as in a free bonus, make lemons out of lemonade and all that).

I was told I was way off - so I asked for clarification on deviation from standard - IE XYZ% deviation from the stock dwell setting at or about the torque peak... and I would have made my own dwell table decisions with information that was accurate from the VENDOR who sold the coils.

I was told to pound sand on one hand and something a lot nicer but equally uninformative on the other hand.... so now; I have to contact a bunch of people in and around Mazda and some electrical engineers I happen to work with in order to get information to make the coils work in a manner that they were advertised.

I don't want my money back; I love these coils and have seen what they can do first hand - - I just want them to work. It would be nice to have the vendor provide information available or an "I don't know"...in which case I would have done my best to get an answer and let them know what it is in order to make the next customers life easier.

Diversification of labor simply means: work toward your competitive advantage and don't sweat the rest; I am a business application development / systems guy / software guy... not an electrical engineer - so dwell settings would have no impact on my competitive advantage (real or percieved) and as such is worthless to me; which is why I give that kind of information away if I have it.

Dwell settings is not "tuning" - it is fixing a freakin bug.... just like microsoft gives you for free all the time. And they will tell you exactly what is in those patches if you ask... functional description.

They were marketed as stock dwell compatible and a good replacement for FI.

They are not - Ray corrected it publically (as in this thread).

Ray and company gave the information to "fix it" IE 5ms.... which works for people such as the Int-X with only one dwell setting.

I interpolated from a few different sources the deviation from known values... and made a first pass at dwell settings which did improve drivability even in NA (as in a free bonus, make lemons out of lemonade and all that).

I was told I was way off - so I asked for clarification on deviation from standard - IE XYZ% deviation from the stock dwell setting at or about the torque peak... and I would have made my own dwell table decisions with information that was accurate from the VENDOR who sold the coils.

I was told to pound sand on one hand and something a lot nicer but equally uninformative on the other hand.... so now; I have to contact a bunch of people in and around Mazda and some electrical engineers I happen to work with in order to get information to make the coils work in a manner that they were advertised.

I don't want my money back; I love these coils and have seen what they can do first hand - - I just want them to work. It would be nice to have the vendor provide information available or an "I don't know"...in which case I would have done my best to get an answer and let them know what it is in order to make the next customers life easier.

Diversification of labor simply means: work toward your competitive advantage and don't sweat the rest; I am a business application development / systems guy / software guy... not an electrical engineer - so dwell settings would have no impact on my competitive advantage (real or percieved) and as such is worthless to me; which is why I give that kind of information away if I have it.

Dwell settings is not "tuning" - it is fixing a freakin bug.... just like microsoft gives you for free all the time. And they will tell you exactly what is in those patches if you ask... functional description.


I have been silent up to this point. I would agree these coils were marketed as a stock replacement. A plug and play solution that was excellent for FI. This did not turn out to be the case in which Charles was very upset and concerned about. But now a solution is out but for the vast majority of new FI applications its black box. I plan on going to the AP in the near future and while I do like the idea of more powerful coils I don't like the feeling of having to make adjustments unknown to us to get the desired results. I feel like I went to the BMW dealership, looked at the M3, saw the claim of 414hp, get it home to find out there is adjustment to be made to get the 414 but they won't tell you how to make the adjustment.