I found something I thought people might like to see. I thought I might just illustrate and see who could guess first: What's odd here? RG is not allowed in this test :).

Paul.

un-drilled 3rd oil injection port :)

hmmmm.... what about this bit? the bump circled in white

so we can buy new housings and fit a 3rd port ?

Zoom beat us to it.
Not sure what the little bit is at the base of what used to be the exhaust port.
But it also has a larger casting around the water port for the intake manifold. Not used anymore though.

I don't think it is a third oil injector - it's too far into the compression zone.

Might be a direct injection port for high pressure fuel injection....

S

That Zoom is a sharpy. Sharp sharp cat! I saw this a few weeks ago and was like: "Wait a second, that wasn't always there".

Paul.

so we can buy new housings and fit a 3rd port ?

Yes sir. I believe that to be the case. I can do them at $615 per housing.

Paul.

hmm -if i wasn't a million miles away ........

I don't think it is a third oil injector - it's too far into the compression zone.

Might be a direct injection port for high pressure fuel injection....

S

It's actually even further away than the standard metering nozzle positions from the compression zone.

Paul.

hmm -if i wasn't a million miles away ........

Ha ha! I've sent many a part to your side of the universe.

Paul.

every time i see the blocked peri-exhaust port i cry a little.

kevin.

Do you have a side picture of it Paul. I would like to see how it looks in the coolant passage.
It looks to be in relation to the intake port on the side housing.
If you have an end plate (I know you do) you should put them together and see it's relationship to the intake port. Maybe throw a rotor and E shaft in there and see how it all lines up.
In your spare time of course.

i think i like where this thread is going... :eyetwitch

So ... if it is ... then ... ?

ARe we gonna get another 20 hp from it ? :lol:

Here is an illustration of the oil metering system for 09.

Paul.

That's cool to know, that it should be possible to drill and tap and run the additional injector.

BUT..

you could have 5 injectors per housing and it wouldn't do any good because you don't have an OMP to feed the extra lines.

And even if you did somehow rig up an OMP to tee out into extra lines, it still wouldnt do you any good because it won't deliver the additional flow required to feed the extra lines.

The fact that the 04-08 engines only have 2 lines is only part of the problem. The other part is that they do not seem to inject ENOUGH oil into those 2 lines. I for one know that my rx8 burns NO oil, and the ones I have seen do not seem to either. A few people claim theirs burns oil.

The point is, without a way to control and feed oil to the extra ports, it would be useless.

I'd like to see someone come up with an aftermarket controller for the OMP...that still keeps the stock computer happy as well. There would be REAL good money in that, too bad we don't seem to have many electrical engineers on the job...and no one has ever been able to decipher the 89-95 rx7 e-OMP either.

with a flash you could fill the housings with oil if you wanted to... but yes it is more complicated that just adding the injector..

That's cool to know, that it should be possible to drill and tap and run the additional injector.

BUT..

you could have 5 injectors per housing and it wouldn't do any good because you don't have an OMP to feed the extra lines.

And even if you did somehow rig up an OMP to tee out into extra lines, it still wouldnt do you any good because it won't deliver the additional flow required to feed the extra lines.

The fact that the 04-08 engines only have 2 lines is only part of the problem. The other part is that they do not seem to inject ENOUGH oil into those 2 lines. I for one know that my rx8 burns NO oil, and the ones I have seen do not seem to either. A few people claim theirs burns oil.

I can say I go through more then a quart in a thousand miles with my current OMP map on my AccessPort flash. The oil metering pump can be adjucted in "steps" (the stroke of the pump) from 0-60 steps on a load vs rpm map. Stock map at idle is 3 steps and it works its way up to maxing out right near 8000 rpms if i remember correctly. My map idles at 6 and works its way to 60 steps in a shorter time period.

I could argue that for the same "protection" the 2 oil nozzle system provides, you could get the same from 3 nozzles with even less oil flow because of it being more evenly distributed.

Maybe someone can figure a system out that taps into the throttle thats connected to a motor feeding nothing but premix ?

but project like this only works on extreme ppl. I have a new Reman motor. it might have this updated housing, but Im not going to take it all apart, drill it, and put it all back together. Just no reason for it. I rather just put premix into my tank every fill up.

These can now be ordered directly from our website....http://mazmart.com/ItemDetail.aspx?id=526

Sheldon.

an OMP injection timing modifier would be a fairly simple construction...

few inputs and a pulse 12v set on a variable rate based on the input conditions.

i could probably whip something rough up if there's actual interest. Personally I despise the OMP system so I never looked at trying to improve it. It could be made fairly straight forward with a "tuning" knob that wouldnt allow it to go below stock, i could even buy the rectangle blanks to make it blend in as a stock piece. damn now the wheels are turning, ive already go too much to do lol.

As for adopting a "standalone" OMP type system feeding from a reservoir, obviously done before and fairly well...thinking about OMP motors tho you theoretically could install an "inline" pump to increase volume of spray. With the above wiring mod you'd already be accessing the OMP system. The check valves in the injectors operate based on the line pressure, so you could turn on the OMP to fill the volume of the inline pump almost like extra switched on storage, then at the appropriate time you trigger the OMP and your inline pump and you release twice the volume at the same or preferably higher pressures, check valves in injectors stay open until pressure dissipates (the injectors are in dire need of a redo, theyre somewhat insulting to the word injector)

on a random side note, never noticed filters inside the old OMP injectors, 09's have filters in the injectors, believe it's fine wire mesh....but there's no warning system for a plugged injector. The only time a warning would occur is if either both center nozzles or all 4 of the side nozzles clog at once, since the only monitor is higher then avg pressure which would only pass the spec threshold if there's was more then one nozzle clogged, imho.

wow really rambled. but as i said i never considered aftermarket fixes for the OMP, i basically just consider the OMP a failure and move on :).

kevin.

While we are on this topic, I've always wondered - is the flow rate of the oil nozzles dependent on the viscosity and/or pressure of the oil?

Sorry for the thread drift, and if there is another thread that covers this, please be kind and redirect me...

While we are on this topic, I've always wondered - is the flow rate of the oil nozzles dependent on the viscosity and/or pressure of the oil?

Sorry for the thread drift, and if there is another thread that covers this, please be kind and redirect me...

The OMP and injectors in reality are relatively basic, the actual pumping of the oil is complicated sorta but the way the system works is quick.

Pressure is relatively unmonitored in the OMP system. (clarification: pressure within the OMP lines is relatively unmonitored, only a switch within the OMP which monitors pressures near the OMP itself knows the output pressure) Which seems odd because the pressure is what makes the system work.

The oil injector contains a check valve inside of it. The OMP is connected via the lines obviously. When specific conditions are met based on rpm, temps, and other sensor inputs the OMP is "pulsed" with battery power. Every time the OMP sees 12V the internal pump system basically rotates moving oil into the lines. This is controlled by the stepper motor which decides how much rotation occurs, but we'll skip that part of the system as it doesnt really pertain to the question. When injection of the oil is requested, generally requested a little *before* it is actually wanted inside the motor, the pump starts going and building pressure between the injectors and the pump. Once the pressure reaches spec the check valve within the injector opens and allows straight flow of the oil in the lines as well as any oil still being pumped by the OMP. The OMP is then requested to be off, generally just a little before it is actually wanted off, and the pressure and volume slowly falls, once past its threshold the check valve within the injector is no longer "forced" open by the pressure and closes, turning off injection.

here's mazda's words:
Operation
• The oil discharging mechanism consists of the plunger and differential plunger driven by the driving worm. The driving worm is driven by the eccentric shaft through the driven gear.
• The amount of oil discharged is controlled by change in the stroke of the plunger and the rotation of the control pin attached to the stepping motor according to the signal from the PCM.
• The operation of the stepping motor is monitored by the positioning switch and it ensures the optimum amount of oil discharge according to the driving condition.
• The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure

Now can viscosity effect this system. Theoretically yes, I've never witnessed nor performed a test but in straight theory viscosity is defined as "resistance to flow" the higher the viscosity the more resistant it is to flowing. This resistance to flow *could* effectively throw off the "timing" of the OMP system (remember what i said before, the OMP is generally requested ON and OFF *BEFORE* it the action is actually needed as to let pressure build and/or bleed off, it is most likely in mS but it's still measurable by scientific method and is therefore a factor that must be considered)

Something to keep in mind, and a reason i dislike the OMP, oil viscosity during use within the motor is almost always changing measurably. An oil actually loses viscosity over time due to molecular level breakdown (main cause is fuel contamination). However, as anyone whos been overdue for an oil change will tell you, old oil tends to be thick, the oil viscosity is also effected by the products of combustion contaminating the oil as well as other factors. This back and forth of thinning and thickening makes the actual motor oil viscosity harder to predict/rate as the oil ages.

Actual oil pressure within the motor is irrelevant *most* likely since the OMP builds it's own pressure. But i could be overlooking something there, higher viscosity oil generally results in higher pressures so the OMP would be producing higher oil pressures unknowingly causing earlier and later closing of the injectors which could be enough to offset the effect of the flow rate of the different viscosity, essentially balancing the effects.

cliffs note: the effect of oil viscosity and pressure on the OMP *system* is debatable to a degree.

kevin.

There is no sensor that measures any sort of pressure to the OMP......

The sensor only tells the ECU where the stepper motor position is.....nothing else

There is no sensor that measures any sort of pressure to the OMP......

The sensor only tells the ECU where the stepper motor position is.....nothing else
meh poor typing. The PCM assumes specific pressures at the OMP based on when and how long the OMP switch is closed/open as well as the "step" position of the motor (using the step position sensor ;) ). These assumed pressures are built-in based on repeatability of the system when being designed. They monitor the pressure they have at the OMP while designing the system with external sensors and based on this data assume a standard pressure seen at the pump during specific positions of the stepper motor and other engine control factors.

You honestly think the PCM doesn't at least think it knows the pressures at which a key element operates, or have the ability to determine what effects on pressure (and all other measurements) changes in the system will cause? That's all the PCM is, a whole bunch of algorithms and complex equations. Expected OMP pressure based on pre-programmed reference/variables is a simple math problem for the PCM. Also you can imagine how much work goes into the OMP, it has to operate the exact same on all motors at all times, thats not easily achieved. So considering the amount of work i'm sure the first thing they do is determine and achieve the exact pressure they want and they make it happen everytime before they proceed.

(edit: added to clarify more, seems like rambling but it adds up)
Also a failure in the system which would be used to make these calculations (aka the stepper motor dying) results in limp-mode on purpose.
Limp mod results in the PCM putting the control pin to the minimum position and then bases the calculations solely off engine RPM. The minimum step position + RPM = the most basic OMP "scheduling". The rod-controlled s4 FC's OMP basically assumed RPM via throttle position, it was a rough formula, hard to do complicated formulas mechanically.

So if the car reacts so suddenly to a failure of the OMP you can assume the math of the OMP is critical, because since part of the system is bad it ignores EVERYTHING, anything that does that is considered critical. The only math required for the OMP is line pressure, since as i said the opening and closing of the system/injectors is completely based on line pressure at the check valve. So in a roundabout way hopefully i've demonstrated to you the point that the PCM always knows OMP pressure, when it feels OMP pressure isn't going to be what it wants it essentially kills the drivability of the vehicle.

(end edit)

The reason the car "limps" is because the PCM tells the car "with this much OMP working at this RPM i need this much pressure (it uses pressure to open and close the injectors therefore the OMP's basic function is pressure control)" The reason the car limps is because when the PCM determines it needs MORE then what it can deliver at minimum step it restricts fuel which stops rpm from increasing effectively.

Mazda knows before you can fully develop the rotary motor you still have to figure out the oil-ing/OMP system first. That's why every major OMP revision generally is followed by a new, better mazda rotary motor. (new pump setup on the 09 13b's....16x development and design....)

kevin.

Sounds nice...but take one apart and look at it...it is a very simple no pressure feed pump.....with basically a drip type output. When the pump expels oil...it drips out the nozzles.

I'm sure Mazda has an idea of the output "pressures" but the ECU sure as hell doesn't ;)

I think what Kevin is saying is that the algorithms & data in the ECU are encoded with knowledge of how much oil is flowing and/or needed for any given operating condition, even if there isn't a sensor reporting pressure or flow rate.

Hope I got that right. Any way, thanks for the description, it was educational and I appreciate the thourough reply. And yes, I have been wondering if the viscosity of the oil one chooses has an impact on the amount of oil injected (or dripped LOL) into the engine for any given operating condition.

ECU know what "step" it wants for a given data point........The reality is that it has no way of knowing if the oil is actually being injected

It does know that the stepper motor moves......that's basically it

Sounds nice...but take one apart and look at it...it is a very simple no pressure feed pump.....with basically a drip type output. When the pump expels oil...it drips out the nozzles.

I'm sure Mazda has an idea of the output "pressures" but the ECU sure as hell doesn't ;)

i know the OMP system. No need to explain it's deficiencies, I'm possibly the most anti-OMP person you'll ever meet. Credits due where credits due to mazda since the OMP is what makes the rotary consumer-ready.

But i assure you the PCM *knows* the expected pressure. Technically it doesn't know a specific number, but it doesnt need to. It understands when there is high or low pressure at the OMP, and that's all it needs to know.

a check valve operated system uses pressure, so it cant be a no pressure system. there are no wires at the injectors, they open only because of internal pressure.

Mazda - Service Highlights 2004 Mazda RX-8 - The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet.

designed to prevent other pressures from effecting the internal pressures of the inlet (because the PCM is operating on fixed known pressure values, those pressures are kept fixed).

the 09 oil injectors have certainly improved, about fuggin time. the injector is the peg leg (attachment)

kevin.

But i assure you the PCM *knows* the expected pressure. Technically it doesn't know a specific number, but it doesnt need to. It understands when there is high or low pressure at the OMP, and that's all it needs to know.



I hate to disagree Kevin..but there is no way the PCM can tell what is happening at the OMP...other than the motor is working. There are no pressure transducers...and the only pressure that is in the system is from the mass flow of the oil from the mechanical piston type pump. It injects an amount of oil based on the amount of movement of the pistons needles..that instantaneously pressurizes the output lines till it overcomes the check valves...So basically the system pressure is based on the function of the oil injection valves

I'm so confused. I hope I can go out tomorrow morning, turn the key and just go wow that was easy.

ECU know what "step" it wants for a given data point........The reality is that it has no way of knowing if the oil is actually being injected

It does know that the stepper motor moves......that's basically it

agreed, but it assumes constants, and i agree that the idea of constants in an equation being bad. But even with it considering certain constants it still *knows* them, it isnt simply flying blind with the most critical system of the motor.

GeorgeH: yea that's about the jist of it. It does not know the *current* info that a sensor would know, but it uses multiple other sensors to decipher the situation of specific things that are required to calculate the pressure at the OMP. They choose to keep the mechanical design of the OMP simply, attempting to install an actual equal per port pressure sensing system would make the OMP overbearing and somewhat overengineered. Instead they find out everything that effects the pressure at the OMP, they then use all THAT info to calculate the pressure at the OMP and they fill in the blanks by following patterns, this info is all stored in the PCM in one way or another. Basically OMP Pressure is used in the internal calculations of the PCM.

i think you helped me figure out how to clarify my position, much obliged.

kevin.

Show me something that backs this up.....otherwise it's conjecture

This is an electrically controlled stepper motor...that is otherwise totally mechanical in function

There is no voodoo circuit in there....

The ECU expect certain outputs...but has no actual way to tell if the oil is coming out

I hate to disagree Kevin..but there is no way the PCM can tell what is happening at the OMP...other than the motor is working. There are no pressure transducers...and the only pressure that is in the system is from the mass flow of the oil from the mechanical piston type pump. It injects an amount of oil based on the amount of movement of the pistons needles..that instantaneously pressurizes the output lines till it overcomes the check valves...So basically the system pressure is based on the function of the oil injection valves

exactly but the PCM knows how much pressure and volume that the mechanical piston pump can produce and move. It knows the amount of movement of the needles.

Not because of sensors monitoring it but because the system was designed to operate at constants. These constant can be determined using outside sources. The internal electronics, pressures and volumes of the OMP can be monitored during design. They can determine the voltages and other factors which result in the production of both the needles moving and the pump, basically the "plungers". During design they use the exact oil that they recommend and sell as mazda branded, they obviously don't *make* the oil, but thats the reason it's the "recommended" oil, all mechanical measurements have been made using that oil or at least oil that is fairly identical in specific categories. The oils are scientifically tested, proven, and certified so they know it is a constant as well.

Basically the PCM knows everything that mazda learned in a lab, it just doesnt need to learn it during real world operation because mazda already has told it what will be happening. All i am saying is the PCM *knows* the pressure, it may not physically *determine* the pressure at a specific time, but it knows what it *should* be, it's not responsible for failures in other parts of the motor such as lack of oil flow etc. In a situation like that the OMP would be the effect of another cause rather then being the caused of the problem itself.

(edit after i saw your reply above: yes i agree it doesnt know if oil is coming out, but *thats* not its job. Having a properly running engine, proper oil and proper oil level is ALWAYS assumed in engine design. If any of the 3 things is not good then none of the reliant systems operate properly, hell the seals siezing is a seal failure but is it the seals fault or the lack of oil? As for a "voodoo circuit" it's not a circuit, its programmed in information, code, 0's and 1's, the information is built into the mathematical equations, the proof is in the factor that the PCM uses ECT, MAF and RPM signals to determine the OMP output, that means there is a formula to determine OMP output, a formula has a solution and the solution is the pressure output at the OMP)

also as a note i believe we are disagreeing in misunderstanding, what you are saying is the basic form of my argument. the "ecu expecting certain outputs" is true but it also "uses specific inputs to calculate and control what is being output". The formula for the I/O involved requires knowledge of the pressures at the OMP, the PCM does this conversion of I/O so it *must* have the knowledge of pressure (based on sensors (ect, maf, rpm) and specific pre-programmed constants,tested and proven in a lab), under good engine running, good oil, and good oil level conditions...as these conditions are *always* assumed in calculations. see my above talk.

kevin.

kevin.

All it knows it what is "should" see based on "step" position on the pump......In a fully functional pump...that will result in a set output from the pump

No way to tell for sure though.....

The good thing is the pump is stupid simple..and doesn't likely fail often in a mode the position sensor wouldn't pick up

Not to change the subject but are these filters (in Red) in the prior to 2009 OMP Injectors, and where is the oil coming from through the system? Is it post oil flter?
And what is going to keep them from clogging up after many miles of use and diminishing the oil flow through them?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137000&d=1239850874

Don't see a filter in the older engines........

Looks like a total redesign of the nozzles..also doesn't seem to be an air balancing system on the nozzles like the old ones..

Not to change the subject but are these filters (in Red) in the prior to 2009 OMP Injectors, and where is the oil coming from through the system? Is it post oil flter?
And what is going to keep them from clogging up after many miles of use and diminishing the oil flow through them?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137000&d=1239850874

see my post on the previous page. From the information I have these filters were present in no other oil injectors. Mazda is improving the oil injectors for the first time. The filter i'm assuming to be metal mesh, haven't got the data on them yet. I was saying in a previous post that this seems dangerous to me, the chance of that filter clogged in my opinion is low but if it does it would drastically change the OMP injection system even if the whole rest of the engine is operating normally even the OMP mechanical unit itself. I also am assuming that the only way the clogged injector would be noticed is if the specific OMP has all it's injectors clogged as i would imagine that may be able to short the unit cause to such a pressure that the plunger system cannot moving cause the motor to continually try to open it results in a blown circuit, but that is definitely just conjecture. I've only really started cracking open the '09s real technical info just recently.

The first thing I looked for was oil flow in the system :) luckily i grabbed an image to use for an example (i was planning on making a topic but this one seemed to fit) The oil does in fact pass thru the oil filter first (unless bypassed internally), altho it goes a short distance from the filter (im guessing thats part of the reason for oil filter movement to front cover). See the attachment for a full breakdown of oil flow through the 2009 motor. (the two thin big squares represent the engine and oil pan, items are located in the thin squares if they are in the oil pan or in/on (not just bolted to) the motor


dannobre: see we're actually agreeing in totally different ways on the core subject. I despise the OMP because it can't tell all the conditions available to it even the basics such as oil performance in the system which is so important to it functioning properly. I fully agree the PCM isn't "sure" of the info, i'm just saying it *knows* what it should be seeing in optimal conditions, the mechanical system as you said is basic, kept basic on purpose to prevent malfunction that's why it only monitors things that would effect that mechanical object. The only direct factor is the stepper motor like you said. No need to monitor the mechanical aspect in a "set rules" environment (good running, good oil, good oil level, etc again) once something triggers it to know the needed things for the OMP to operate in the *expected* manner are out of whack the OMP reverts to the basics "oil lowest position + rpm & cutout when oil metering pressure is unattainable" limp mode. I think i'm just overexplaining to try to make it clear since some people require more info to understand the subject, my apologies. And again, so you know, i hate the OMP, i understand it's levels of suckiness, but i know how it operates which is why i hate it.

kevin.

We definitely agree on that :)

I hope they have added some pressure/flow feedback to the new electric pumps on the new engines........Shouldn't be too difficult to do

Would the OMP simply reroute the oil if one became clogged? I mean it feeds all the lines with the same source. Not through individual pumps. So if one clogged I'm thinking the OMP would not know the difference. And simply due to a restriction in flow to one of the injectors it would simply divert the oil being supplied to the remaining injectors. And one would never know. Until some one rebuilt the engine and noticed a bit more wear in the failed injector location.

You are right...the flow on the other lines would go up a bit, but there is no way to tell.

I pulled them when I had my UIM off and checked them...they were all OK on mine..but I seem to remember Jeff had some failed ones on one of his engines

i think you helped me figure out how to clarify my position, much obliged.
kevin.

You are welcome.


The good thing is the pump is stupid simple..

Exactly. Which is why it is relatively easy for the ECU to predict it's behavior. Which is to say, some smart guy back at Mazda figured out how much oil is needed to protect the motor (it's already been argued whether or not he got that part right LOL) and designed a simple delivery system who's behavior could be determined by some basic flow equations and then controlled by the stepper motor. Of course it's all approximate, and with the variations in oil viscosity & conditions, it can only be "so" smart in the absence of sensors.

Which brings me back to my point - it seems to me the further you get from the Mazda reccomended oil weight (and I consider 5-30 to be the "real" reccomended weight) the further you take the OMP system out of it's normal operating zone.

Can't say by how far, and how significant it is, but the conclusion does seem to be logical, at least in principal.

But that's why folks pre-mix, I suppose. Use the heavier weight to protect the bearings and premix to protect the seals.

Dannobre is correct...the PCM has no idea if the OMP is actually flowing ANY oil. It merely opens the floodgates a crack and expects that the predetermined acceptable amount of oil will flow through.

I know this because, I blocked off all 4 OMP ports on my rx8 as an experiment, using short solid (non-banjo) bolts. I then ran straight premix for one oil change to see if the oil level dropped or rose...it did not.

During this time, there was never a code for an OMP issue. The OMP had no idea that zero oil was flowing through it...it was still opening and closing as normal, but obviously no oil could flow through. Think of it as a waterhose with a sprayer on the end, and a spigot. Even if you open the spigot wide open (OMP) if the sprayer is closed (blocked injector, line, or blocked off OMP ports like mine) nothing will flow past the spigot.

IN this case the spigot is to dumb to know that, it only knows whether or not it is open.

For the rest of my experiment, I put the bolts back in and am monitoring further oil changes to see if the oil level drops...thus far it has not. This tells me that my OMP is not injecting any significant amount of oil.

The dumb OMP has been the same ever since the first e-omp in 1989. On those cars we actually sometimes remove the OMP from the engine altogether, so that it is neither delivering oil or being driven by the engine drive system, in order to run premix but still retain a stock computer. As long as the stepper motor and position sensor are plugged into the harness, the ecu/pcm is kept happy...it simply wants to trigger the stepper motor and see an expected change in position, it doesnt know or care whether anything is flowing internally or externally through those passages.

I know mine works..I cranked it up to step 60 on a flash...and it dumped oil in like crazy.

It also uses about 1/2 l / hr on the track......

The nozzles would be worth checking if you have your UIM off

Mine is working also. I know from the last HPDE session. It used about 1/2 qt. in the first two 20 minute sessions. But it is cranked way up with the Accessport. And I premix. So I had plenty of lubrication.

That's what she said! :Eyecrazy:

You are right...the flow on the other lines would go up a bit, but there is no way to tell.

I pulled them when I had my UIM off and checked them...they were all OK on mine..but I seem to remember Jeff had some failed ones on one of his engines

I had both of the injectors on my fd 13brew fail (check valve failed) in the injector allowing OMP oil up out of the injector.... but onto these new injectors as you point out......

Looks like a total redesign of the nozzles..also doesn't seem to be an air balancing system on the nozzles like the old ones..

That check valve you're referring to is still there, it's just been moved and is supported by a spring which must be rated to the specific pressure of the oil in the OMP line at the time of "Oil injector on" command. This provides both things the old oil injector did, it prevents the pressure effects on the motor side of things from interfering with the pressure in the line. By taking out the air sucking part you prevent putting oil back into the intake system which probably improves emissions or something. However the downside is knowing if the check valve fails seems impossible. Overall inspection of the injector seems like it would require removal for testing...which is stupid.

Dannobre is correct...the PCM has no idea if the OMP is actually flowing ANY oil. It merely opens the floodgates a crack and expects that the predetermined acceptable amount of oil will flow through.

I know this because, I blocked off all 4 OMP ports on my rx8 as an experiment, using short solid (non-banjo) bolts. I then ran straight premix for one oil change to see if the oil level dropped or rose...it did not.

During this time, there was never a code for an OMP issue. The OMP had no idea that zero oil was flowing through it...it was still opening and closing as normal, but obviously no oil could flow through. Think of it as a waterhose with a sprayer on the end, and a spigot. Even if you open the spigot wide open (OMP) if the sprayer is closed (blocked injector, line, or blocked off OMP ports like mine) nothing will flow past the spigot.

IN this case the spigot is to dumb to know that, it only knows whether or not it is open.

For the rest of my experiment, I put the bolts back in and am monitoring further oil changes to see if the oil level drops...thus far it has not. This tells me that my OMP is not injecting any significant amount of oil.

The dumb OMP has been the same ever since the first e-omp in 1989. On those cars we actually sometimes remove the OMP from the engine altogether, so that it is neither delivering oil or being driven by the engine drive system, in order to run premix but still retain a stock computer. As long as the stepper motor and position sensor are plugged into the harness, the ecu/pcm is kept happy...it simply wants to trigger the stepper motor and see an expected change in position, it doesnt know or care whether anything is flowing internally or externally through those passages.

yea exactly what we both realized we were agreeing on. The OMP mechanically is never assumed to fail because it is a super basic system therefore it is not checked nor are the other conditions of a motor that are "assumed" during design. We were just showing the same picture from different minds, mainly due to a typo because of laziness to fully explain and amazingly from like the last sentence of the whole post. I personally thought id fuck that post up somewhere in the beginning, not the perfect state of mind :).


Which brings me back to my point - it seems to me the further you get from the Mazda reccomended oil weight (and I consider 5-30 to be the "real" reccomended weight) the further you take the OMP system out of it's normal operating zone.

Can't say by how far, and how significant it is, but the conclusion does seem to be logical, at least in principal.

That will continue to realistically be unproven, as it's hard to get someone with the right equipment to do real R&D style tests.

Considering that viscosity slows flow yet increases pressures the differences caused by the two may completely balance themselves out. One of the reasons it is so important to not miss oil change intervals.

As of right now I'm thinking it has a chance of balancing out but only with some actual testing will anyone find out. I don't have the time nor the real scientific measuring systems to carry out the tests to any degree of "conclusive", and thats why motor oil "preferences" and "myths" will always exist especially with rotaries.

kevin.

dang IB 'maintenance' last night blew away my post, it went something like this:

series II omp system has a [real] pressure sensor?

since series II is electrically driven it could fail with zero output, compared to series I which during stepping failure would be assumed to be a 'minimum' output for limp mode.

edit: one more thing...

the series one omp is a positive displacement pump, and so should be minimally affected by pressure (assuming no air gets in there?)..

series two is what kind?

i would think that in the event of some blockage, the mechanically driven pdp would be more likely to overcome than the electrical one (but i've got no specs on the driver motor).

~

also I 'approve' :) if they really did remove the air system to the nozzles.... (has this truly been confirmed?)

i wonder if the new nozzle check valve spring is strong enough to prevent engine vacuum draining a bit from the lines.... I suppose it must be, and I like that solution better, than the old one which would just feed in air if the nozzles saw vac.

also I 'approve' :) if they really did remove the air system to the nozzles.... (has this truly been confirmed?)

i wonder if the new nozzle check valve spring is strong enough to prevent engine vacuum draining a bit from the lines.... I suppose it must be, and I like that solution better, than the old one which would just feed in air if the nozzles saw vac.

that is a pic out of a mazda '09 rx8 manual.

kevin.

the series one omp is a positive displacement pump, and so should be minimally affected by pressure (assuming no air gets in there?)..


Interesting! In that case I take back all my comments about the viscosity affecting the flow rate. For that matter, the condition of the oil shouldn't matter terribly either, although of course these factors matter in terms of how well the oil lubricates the seals.

The engine oil filter on the 09 is of extremely high quality fine filtration type in order to prevent problems in systems like this. It should not be substituted for anything questionable for the task. An engineer at Mazda told me that and I think I remember it correctly.

Paul.

The engine oil filter on the 09 is of extremely high quality fine filtration type in order to prevent problems in systems like this. It should not be substituted for anything questionable for the task. An engineer at Mazda told me that and I think I remember it correctly.

Paul.

yea i actually think thats in the '09 owner's manual too, altho it might be some other manual.

i have a cutaway pic and info on the filter somewhere too, post it after work.

kevin.

yea i actually think thats in the '09 owner's manual too, altho it might be some other manual.

i have a cutaway pic and info on the filter somewhere too, post it after work.

kevin.

Cool. I have the new filters here but didn't want to sarifice one for curiosity sake at this time.

Thanks Kevin.

Paul.

They don't have any Micron filtering specs for them do they Paul. Compared to the prior years filters? Are the new filters interchangable with prior years. I know the mount location is different, but is the filter mount?

when speaking of the OMP you need to realize its a positive displacement pump. It will deliver the same amount of oil with zero back pressure or 300 pounds of backpressure. Therefore clogging is less of a concern, and changing oil weights has no effect.

The engine oil filter on the 09 is of extremely high quality fine filtration type in order to prevent problems in systems like this. It should not be substituted for anything questionable for the task. An engineer at Mazda told me that and I think I remember it correctly.

Paul.

So you mean the new filter has higher than 99.99% filtration rate ? (cuz some filter claim to have 99.98%)

hmm. maybe I should use it ? ( I still have some filters left, OE and aftermarket)

Sorry, coming in late here...as usual :)

On Paul's pic....

Well it really is just a manufacturing parts super-session done by Mazda, so they cast ALL the RENESIS 13B housings to the latest series II set up with 3 nozzles per housing, but do not drill the 3rd hole for Series I Engines....no big deal, Mazda do this all the time, it makes sense a they only have to 'cast' or make one rotor housing.

From a selling/retailing point Mazda obviously still has 2 different types of housings, one for Series I and one for II. N3H1-10-B10C and N3R1-10-B10.

Yes you could drill the 3rd injector into this housing "pictured", but WHY would you do it, you might as well just buy the Series II N3R1-10-B10 Housings as the job is already done for you.

As far as drilling the hole on an "assembled engine"?, how are you going to guarantee that no debris will fall into the rotor chamber?

Then there is also the issue that the Series I Stepper MOP won't handle 2 more extra Nozzles, it does not have the capacity to deliver.

Forget trying to add the two Series II Electromagnetic MOP's, you have issues of wiring, PCM , OCV (oil control Valve) ,Oil Pump, and the critical one OIL PRESSURE, the Series I does not have the 50% extra oil pressure needed to operate this new system.

Mazda have completely overhauled the MOP system on S2's.

Rough cost to buy all the parts about $2K , that does not include PCM (1K) and Wiring looms, new oil pump, that is if you can get it to work.

Good find Paul.. :)

These can now be ordered directly from our website....http://mazmart.com/ItemDetail.aspx?id=526

Sheldon.

If someone wanted the 3 rd nozzle housings (don't ask me why), why not just sell the S2 housing?

N3R1-10-B10

There is no sensor that measures any sort of pressure to the OMP......

The sensor only tells the ECU where the stepper motor position is.....nothing else

The new system on the Series II does have an oil pressure sensor on one of the two EMOPS for monitoring oil pressure to the EMOP's, but not as far as I know on the Stepper MOP on S1.

Not to change the subject but are these filters (in Red) in the prior to 2009 OMP Injectors, and where is the oil coming from through the system? Is it post oil flter?
And what is going to keep them from clogging up after many miles of use and diminishing the oil flow through them?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137000&d=1239850874

The new system has a self cleaning mode that shoots the crap back down to the sump, but yes, I don't know how they clean the filter in the injector...I cant see it is possible there at all to clean at this point..

The engine oil filter on the 09 is of extremely high quality fine filtration type in order to prevent problems in systems like this. It should not be substituted for anything questionable for the task. An engineer at Mazda told me that and I think I remember it correctly.

Paul.

Yeah, I have been saying for ages to not use any other type or larger filter, perhaps that is why Mazda put that semi-circle type alloy flange around the oil filter to stop anyone from changing to a larger diameter filter and to protect the filter body.

I can see no reason why a S1 owner could not use the S2 oil filter.
Remember that the S2 does run a 50% (approx) higher pressure oil pump.

Ash

P0522 Oil pressure sensor low input
�� The voltage of oil pressure sensor input terminal is less than 0.2 V for 0.5 s or more.
P0523 Oil pressure sensor high input
�� The voltage of oil pressure sensor input terminal is more than 4.8 V for 0.5 s or more.
P0107 BARO sensor circuit low input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the BARO sensor when the engine is running. If the input voltage is
less than 2.09 V, the PCM determines that the BARO sensor circuit input voltage is low.
P0108 BARO sensor circuit high input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the BARO sensor when the engine is running. If the input voltage is
more than 4.02 V, the PCM determines that the BARO sensor circuit input voltage is high.
P1680 OCV circuit low input
�� The PCM monitors input voltage from the OCV. If the voltage of the OCV input terminal is less than the
specification for 1 s when the battery voltage is more than 10 V, the PCM determines the OCV circuit voltage
is low.
P1681 OCV circuit high input
�� The PCM monitors input voltage from the OCV. If the OCV current is more than 3.5 A for 2 s when the battery
voltage is more than 10 V, the PCM determines the OCV circuit has a malfunction.
P1682 Metering oil pump No.1 circuit low input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the metering oil pump No.1 when the battery voltage is more than 8
V and the metering oil pump No.1 control signal turned from ON to OFF. If the input voltage is less than the
specification, the PCM determines that the metering oil pump No.1 circuit has a malfunction.
P1683 Metering oil pump No.1 circuit high input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the metering oil pump No.1 when the battery voltage is more than 8
V and the metering oil pump No.1 control signal turned from ON to OFF. If the input voltage is more than the
specification, the PCM determines that the metering oil pump No.1 circuit has a malfunction.
P1684 Metering oil pump oil pressure sensor–oil pressure is low
�� It is that the oil pressure at the metering oil pump system is less than 40 kPa {0.41 kgf/cm2, 5.8 psi} continues
for 10 s, after specified period passes after the engine starts.
P1685 Metering oil pump oil pressure sensor–oil pressure is high
�� It is that the oil pressure at the metering oil pump system is more than 180 kPa {1.84 kgf/cm2, 26.1 psi}
continues for 10 s, after specified period passes after the engine starts.
P1686 Metering oil pump No.2 circuit low input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the metering oil pump No.2 when the battery voltage is more than 8
V and the metering oil pump No.2 control signal turned from ON to OFF. If the input voltage is less than the
specification, the PCM determines that the metering oil pump No.2 circuit has a malfunction.
P1687 Metering oil pump No.2 circuit high input
�� The PCM monitors the input voltage from the metering oil pump No.2 when the battery voltage is more than 8
V and the metering oil pump No.2 control signal turned from OFF to ON. If the input voltage is more than the
specification, the PCM determines that the metering oil pump No.2 circuit has a malfunction.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137111&stc=1&d=1239940333

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137112&stc=1&d=1239940333

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137126&stc=1&d=1239942472

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137114&stc=1&d=1239941229

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137115&stc=1&d=1239941229

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137116&stc=1&d=1239941229

ALL 6 Oil Nozzles are the exact same type and are new and unique to the new EMOP System.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137121&stc=1&d=1239941624

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137122&stc=1&d=1239941624

NEW OIL PUMP DETAILS

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137123&stc=1&d=1239941624

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137124&stc=1&d=1239941624

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137125&stc=1&d=1239941624

LMFAO, i was gonna post the '09 service highlights pages too as there's so much info on it. But there's a good cutaway, outline cutaway at least, with decent specs on the filter. I think i have another paper on it too

kevin.

Good info...looks like a much different system ;)

Good thing I suspect :)

?..


As I see it the new EMOP set up is somewhat incorrect (in description) as the two EMOP's are not really Pumps but Electromagnetic Actuators, the actual "Pumping" of oil is done by the engines main and only New "OIL PUMP" with the Oil Control Valve maintaining supply to the two "Actuators", when they receive an electric current via the MOP Driver the Electromagnetic Solenoids main centre Plunger Opens allowing oil to flow through to the Injector Nozzles.
When current is turned off the Plunger closes oil supply.

So the EMOP's are not actually Pumping anything they are just a gateway or controlling chamber Opening and Closing Plungers to allow oil flow.

Does this sound correct?

Ash

Hmm ... self cleaning .... hmm

Good luck "self cleaning" those filters.......

Ash,

I was wondering where you were. You probably would have given Zoom a run for his money in how quickly you could have figured out the oddity of this housing. By the way, I didn't buy them in order to provide the 3rd nozzle option; that was a pleasant surprise to me. I can't as yet guarantee that the N3R1 (09) will work the older parts though and it retail in the US at almost $1000 (Although I can do better :eyetwitch).

Paul.

my oven is self-cleaning too....and its dirty as hell. food for thought.

ASH8: As far as specific wording, the Service Highlights line of mazda books has a tendency to have grammatical errors, phrasing errors, and some "old" pics in it. These eventually are amended before the release of the next service highlights book. The manuals are pretty constantly updated, updates just are only released at specific times and their is no notification of print/image changes.

glad to see everyone getting some use out of that file someone else posted.

kevin.

?..


As I see it the new EMOP set up is somewhat incorrect (in description) as the two EMOP's are not really Pumps but Electromagnetic Actuators, the actual "Pumping" of oil is done by the engines main and only New "OIL PUMP" with the Oil Control Valve maintaining supply to the two "Actuators", when they receive an electric current via the MOP Driver the Electromagnetic Solenoids main centre Plunger Opens allowing oil to flow through to the Injector Nozzles.
When current is turned off the Plunger closes oil supply.

So the EMOP's are not actually Pumping anything they are just a gateway or controlling chamber Opening and Closing Plungers to allow oil flow.

Does this sound correct?

Ash

That's the way i see it.
Engine oil pump creates flow. OCV regulates flow rate. EMOP is just a valve to turn on flow to the side and center oil injection nozzles during engine operation.

By the way this is some great info.

Ash,

I was wondering where you were. You probably would have given Zoom a run for his money in how quickly you could have figured out the oddity of this housing. By the way, I didn't buy them in order to provide the 3rd nozzle option; that was a pleasant surprise to me. I can't as yet guarantee that the N3R1 (09) will work the older parts though and it retail in the US at almost $1000 (Although I can do better :eyetwitch).

Paul.

got to watch Zoom :)

?..
As I see it the new EMOP set up is somewhat incorrect (in description) as the two EMOP's are not really Pumps but Electromagnetic Actuators, the actual "Pumping" of oil is done by the engines main and only New "OIL PUMP" with the Oil Control Valve maintaining supply to the two "Actuators", when they receive an electric current via the MOP Driver the Electromagnetic Solenoids main centre Plunger Opens allowing oil to flow through to the Injector Nozzles.
When current is turned off the Plunger closes oil supply.

So the EMOP's are not actually Pumping anything they are just a gateway or controlling chamber Opening and Closing Plungers to allow oil flow.

Does this sound correct?

Ash

That's the way i see it.
Engine oil pump creates flow. OCV regulates flow rate. EMOP is just a valve to turn on flow to the side and center oil injection nozzles during engine operation.


I agree with you guys that it make more sense they way you describe it, but if you read the section below carefully, it would seem not to be so.

The way it describes it then there is no power applied to the oil metering pump, the oil pressure in the oil tube is greater than the oil pressure in the oil metering pump, the sub plungers are retracted, and oil fills the space between the sub plungers and the oil tube check valves.

When power is applied to the Oil metering pump the the main oil plunger pushes the sub plungers towards the oil tube check valves, forcing the trapped oil in front of the plunger through the check valve and into the oil tube.

The Oil metering pump driver must pulse the power to the oil metering pumps, so when there is no power to the oil metering pump the plungers reset and oil fills the space between the sub plungers and the oil tube check valves, and when the next power pulse the plungers force the oil through the check valve into the oil tubes.

Thus increasing the oil pressure in the oil tube to the point where the oil nozzle check valve is forced open and oil is discharge into the engine.

At least that's how it's discribed in the section below, which means the oil metering pumps, are actually pumps, and are rapidly and constantly cycling.

I would have thought the way you guy described it made more sense, where the oil metering pumps and oil nozzle are acting almost like fuel injectors, no power oil is blocked from entering oil tubes, power applied pressurized oil is allowed to flow into oil tubes and exit oil nozzles. (or even the oppisite where when no power is applied oil is allowed to flow to the oil nozzle, and when power is applied it is blocked the flow of oil, which would make the oil meter pump fail state to feed oil in the nozzles constantly).

It's all a little confusing trying to understand the way they describe they did it. :Eyecrazy:


http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=137116&stc=1&d=1239941229

^+1

fancy --lot of thought and trial into this system by Mazda.
Too bad it still doesnt get enough to the side seals.
OD

this OMP design seems a hell of a lot more reliable than the old stepper motor types. it's just a spring loaded plunger. you can't get much simpler than that. the original 89-91 E-OMP (which had no OCV in the system) was especially notorious for stepper motor problems, leading to limp mode and/or a fried ECU due to an internal short.

TAZ-NZ

Sorry mate, they are not pumps, they do not "pump" anything, they are electromagnetic solenoids that open and close the main plungers in the two EMOP's.

When the battery voltage is supplied by the metering oil pump driver, the main and sub plungers in the metering oil pump move. The plungers return to the original position by spring force when the battery voltage is not supplied.

The Solenoids electromagnetically (battery voltage via driver) open and close the main Plungers that lets oil through.

The plungers are spring loaded (this is the exact process of any solenoid set up with a plunger, a smaller example is a Fuel Cut Off (stop) solenoid in a Carburettor., works on voltage on plunger in, voltage off plunger out (stop)...

BTW..there is constant oil in the system.
And No I am not confused as to how it works, it is elaborate but simple really.

fancy --lot of thought and trial into this system by Mazda.
Too bad it still doesnt get enough to the side seals.
OD

I agree with you OD... that is why I pre-mix even with this new system on my car.
Yes it is far better than anything Mazda have done on any rotary...BUT..

this OMP design seems a hell of a lot more reliable than the old stepper motor types. it's just a spring loaded plunger. you can't get much simpler than that. the original 89-91 E-OMP (which had no OCV in the system) was especially notorious for stepper motor problems, leading to limp mode and/or a fried ECU due to an internal short.

I agree, like i've said from the beginning mazda knows before they can further develop the rotary motor they need to figure out/solve the OMP system. That's why i feel this system and the 16X motor have "come out" around the same time (16x was shown before new OMP i believe, but its easy to assume the OMP was being designed alongside or just before the 16X)

the OMP is what makes the rotary usable for average consumers, fix it/advance it and you can up the ante of the rotary motor itself, which in the end has been mazda's underlying goal for like 40+ years, it just wasn't always obvious. Mazda of japan LOVES rotary, the only hybrid they have is the Hydrogen renesis.

kevin.

I'm all for making the OMP better. I feel like the new setup has shoehorned in that second OMP... hopefully the 16X will have one simple, reliable, integrated unit. The two rotaries I've owned have had the oldschool mechanical pumps that injected oil directly onto the housings and into the intake manifold. I've never premixed and never felt the need to, even after tearing my motor down.

For the 16X, what I'm really hoping for is that the new housing designs will retain the oil film better, and the new combustion chamber will dissipate heat on the seals better. The result would be that the current low oil consumption would in fact be enough oil to maintain longevity, instead of just being an emissions compromise.

One good thing is the 16X rotor housings are thinner, so the rotors and Apex Seals are also not as wide (more like the width of a 12A) , however because of the longer rotor stroke the side seals will also be slightly longer.

From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.

I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.

One good thing is the 16X rotor housings are thinner, so the rotors and Apex Seals are also not as wide (more like the width of a 12A) , however because of the longer rotor stroke the side seals will also be slightly longer.

From what we have all seen of the 16X the location and layout of the 3 oil Nozzles looks the same as RENESIS II, so I think we will see a similar (or same) delivery method with the engines OIL Pump moving the engine oil to the Nozzles.

I think the test will be after a few years of this new MOP system in the "field" with the 09 RX-8's.

since all the smart and knowledgeable people are commenting.

how about some info on the differences in the fuel injectors and spray patterns! :)

beers :beer:

I see what your saying about the "Sub Plunger" It actually make the oil delivery. Small piston pump in a way.

It is a Plunger not a Pump, it moves by a electro-"magnetic" coil. Plungers are either open or closed, the Plunger(s) slide up or down and are spring loaded allowing oil to flow to nozzles.

Oil flow to the Plungers are controlled by the OCV (Oil Control Valve).

Oil and pressure to the OCV comes from the Engines Oil Pump.

I think it is very simple and really ingenious, I really don't know why Mazda did not do this in the first place...Perhaps it had something to do with cost....or FORD???

:)

since all the smart and knowledgeable people are commenting.

how about some info on the differences in the fuel injectors and spray patterns! :)

beers :beer:

:lol:Do you know it Swoope, come on spit up the info!

:lol:Do you know it Swoope, come on spit up the info!

i am not the knowledgeable one. i just know them.. and i sure as shit dont have access to the 09 printouts like you.. and thanks for that.. right now i am looking for a better filtering low bypass that works with the 04!

it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.

but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad! :)

beers :beer:

i am not the knowledgeable one. i just know them.. and i sure as shit dont have access to the 09 printouts like you.. and thanks for that.. right now i am looking for a better filtering low bypass that works with the 04!

it has been mentioned that the spray pattern and pressure might have changed.

but what do i know i am just a troubleshooter and dickwad! :)

beers :beer:

AWWWW...We Still Wove Ya!:uhh:

I think it is very simple and really ingenious, I really don't know why Mazda did not do this in the first place...Perhaps it had something to do with cost....or FORD?? :)

the old 04 OMP is pretty much the same design as the 89-91 units from what i can see. You have to compare the two systems to the prevalent technology at the time. The 89-91 pump functions much like a stepper-motor based idle air control valve, something that was being increasingly adopted at that time among other makes (Mitsu for example). You have to realize just how crude the PCM technology was back then. Mazda made a LOT of compromises because PCM's were so slow/crappy. All you really need for that old stepper design is a PCM map of steps vs TPS voltage (Mazda designed a new TPS just for the e-OMP) and maybe a modifier for engine load as measured by the airflow meter. The PCM was simply too slow to make the kind of calculations used in the 09 system, and the additional sensors etc would add cost. The FC3S fuel injection system was still basically a slight modification of the Bosch L Jetronic EFI system as used in say the old 280ZX.Mazda also made a lot of compromises in the series 6 FD3S sequential twin turbo system because they just didn't have a powerful enough PCM.

The new 09 system has a lot of characteristics of a returnless fuel system if you think about it. That's a now-prevalent technology that they clearly modeled the new OMP on.

the old 04 OMP is pretty much the same design as the 89-91 units from what i can see. You have to compare the two systems to the prevalent technology at the time. The 89-91 pump functions much like a stepper-motor based idle air control valve, something that was being increasingly adopted at that time among other makes (Mitsu for example). You have to realize just how crude the PCM technology was back then. Mazda made a LOT of compromises because PCM's were so slow/crappy. All you really need for that old stepper design is a PCM map of steps vs TPS voltage (Mazda designed a new TPS just for the e-OMP) and maybe a modifier for engine load as measured by the airflow meter. The PCM was simply too slow to make the kind of calculations used in the 09 system, and the additional sensors etc would add cost. The FC3S fuel injection system was still basically a slight modification of the Bosch L Jetronic EFI system as used in say the old 280ZX.Mazda also made a lot of compromises in the series 6 FD3S sequential twin turbo system because they just didn't have a powerful enough PCM.

The new 09 system has a lot of characteristics of a returnless fuel system if you think about it. That's a now-prevalent technology that they clearly modeled the new OMP on.

Very true and very well expressed! The newest system has the potential of being the best if it doesn't develop glitches.

Paul.

Very true and very well expressed! The newest system has the potential of being the best if it doesn't develop glitches.

Paul.

yea i agree on both points.

the OMP will only continually improve with time, if it doesnt the rotary ends, as far as a consumer vehicle.

kevin.