Well, as promised, I got my rebuilt turbo back from Scott in just a few weeks; most of that spent in shipping. (I was promised an in-house 7-10 day turn around and the turbo was only gone for three weeks and a couple days. Doesn't get better than that. Shipping each way took a week. It would have been faster but FedEx couldnt find the delivery address and missed a few days. FedEx called me three times complaining that they could not find the address. Bizarre. ) During all this, I got email and phone updates from Sara. This is par-for-the-course with my dealings with Mazsport. Never have I had an issue. Normally, i would not mention such things as dealings at this level are, IMhumbleO, best kept between those that are having the issue, not spread thin on facts across a public forum. Furthermore, if I did post such issues, I would expect readers to become informed from my post; I would not expect them to be recruited inappropriately to some "cause." That is called, quite frankly, a witchhunt.

I am astonished at what I got back. First, the turbo looks brand new. Not sure how they got it looking like that. What went out was somewhat rusty and what came back looks like it has never seen the underside of the car. But I digress.

I should have taken pics of the wheels before I sent it out, but what came back seems disproportionally larger. That may be my mind playing with me. Interestingly, the cold-side has double vanes. One good thing is that the bearings were shot (i think) when I ripped out the turbo and the wheels spin solid now. Hopefully these journal bearings will hold up for a year or so, at least for some time to pass for the next upgrade.

I am curious, why I need to run non-synth oil for the first oil change. This is not an issue, but it is curious. I was informed of this via a sticker on my wrapped turbo. I would be genuinely interested in the reason for this.

Job now is to get the snail back up and mounted, get my fuel issues dealt with, check the base tune for safety and then get the car out for paint. Then I mount up my new Bride Gias when they (well "it" for now; i will buy the pass side later) arrive hopefully in December-January.

If the weather turns warmer, I will get tuning and maybe post up some dyno numbers this year. While I dont keep track of costs, I believe I might be in the running to for the cheapest route to 300hp on the RX8. The GReddy kit was used and I think I got it for under $2k. IIRC like $1500 (maybe it was more. I could be way off, sorry.) That kit put me at 250whp. This upgrade was only a grand and should get me to 300hp. How's that! (I suppose you should count the int-x, injectors, fuel pump in that calculation but would rather not.)

What? Is Scott soliciting customers to post in his behalf to restore his good name? All I have to do is look at that awful lower intake manifold and 'nuff said. (My God, what a hack job).

What? Is Scott soliciting customers to post in his behalf to restore his good name?

Ahh. A pitchfork carrying member of the mob. How nice of you to stop by.


Look, I dont know you and you sure the fuck dont know me. So dont come posting implying that MY motives are less than honorable. How the fuck do you come off impuning MY name? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?

Unless you have some shit on me I suggest you STFU and back off.

u need to relax

Well it is true that b'Eight' made the exact kind of remark carbonRX8 wasn't wanting - some witchunting anti-mazsport mob-type post.

If you got a good product from Mazsport - it's great you let people know so it's not just a one sided flame war against a company, especially if they are actually doing "something" right "some" of the time. I will say more people post negatives because they have problems, than the majority who don't post who don't have problems. I know I wouldn't make a post for every item I buy that worked as claimed, but for the ones that don't work as claimed I would probably be pissed and want to share my experience with others to help save them from possibly going through what I went through.

That said, I don't think carbonRX8 should get attacked for saying his Mazsport transation went through great; it's childish, grow up. If you want to post anti-Mazsport, go to the Good Guys/Bad Guys thread and post your experience.

I believe I might be in the running to for the cheapest route to 300hp on the RX8. The GReddy kit was used and I think I got it for under $2k. IIRC like $1500 (maybe it was more. I could be way off, sorry.) That kit put me at 250whp. This upgrade was only a grand and should get me to 300hp. How's that! (I suppose you should count the int-x, injectors, fuel pump in that calculation but would rather not.)

um, thats like saying "i got ripped up by using nothing more than the Pilates DVD's off TV that i got for the cheap.......(oh yeah, but im not counting the roids i was shooting also)" :uhh: :squint:

Ahh. A pitchfork carrying member of the mob. How nice of you to stop by.


Look, I dont know you and you sure the fuck dont know me. So dont come posting implying that MY motives are less than honorable. How the fuck do you come off impuning MY name? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?

Unless you have some shit on me I suggest you STFU and back off.

we, in fairness you did kinda bring it up and open pandora's box with your comments here.....
....I would not expect them to be recruited inappropriately to some "cause." That is called, quite frankly, a witchhunt.

...........................

Well it is true that b'Eight' made the exact kind of remark carbonRX8 wasn't wanting - some witchunting anti-mazsport mob-type post.

If you got a good product from Mazsport - it's great you let people know so it's not just a one sided flame war against a company, especially if they are actually doing "something" right "some" of the time. I will say more people post negatives because they have problems, than the majority who don't post who don't have problems. I know I wouldn't make a post for every item I buy that worked as claimed, but for the ones that don't work as claimed I would probably be pissed and want to share my experience with others to help save them from possibly going through what I went through.

That said, I don't think carbonRX8 should get attacked for saying his Mazsport transation went through great; it's childish, grow up. If you want to post anti-Mazsport, go to the Good Guys/Bad Guys thread and post your experience.

agreed agreed and agreed... anyone who has positive dealings with MazSport should be equally as free to post about it here.
its always possible that the preponderance of evidence we have here on the forum is misleading in some way:uhh:

really.... awe fuck it whats the point:lol:

Ahh. A pitchfork carrying member of the mob. How nice of you to stop by.


Look, I dont know you and you sure the fuck dont know me. So dont come posting implying that MY motives are less than honorable. How the fuck do you come off impuning MY name? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?

Unless you have some shit on me I suggest you STFU and back off.

jesus, relax.

interested to see what power you can make - I have the same upgraded turbo ...

everybody, why don't we just take it as a peaceful thread.
he did the greddy upgrade, and he likes the way mazsport did it, so it's good for him. at least mazsport does good job on the turbo. if other ppl have bad experiences with mazsport, just post with a new thread. i am aware what is going on with the vendor and other ppl, but we can't always burn people when ever they talk about the product that they are happy with, and it comes from the vendor. so, since he talks ab out the turbo greddy upgrade, why don't we focus on the thread topic instead of trying to make it as an arguments.
i am not looking any argument....
i hope you can dyno it and show us the HP
steven

Forgot to mention, good luck getting to 300whp & don't forget to post the dyno! :)

the flow maps comparing the upgraded wheel to the original greddy one showed a minor change in the amount of air flow.

Given that the greddy kit stock technically CAN make 300 whp if you really push it (I've only seen two people do it out of all the people with greddy), I'm going to assume the same psi on old and new will net you maybe 10 whp gain. So while 300 is still within reach, it isn't likely. You aren't going to make 300 whp on 9 psi with this.

The upgraded cold side makes the GReddy turbo, effectively, a 20g.
Its good for about 8 pounds more air.

Doesn't do anything for turbine flow.

^ So what does that mean in terms of comparing it to the original greddy? It has issues generating heat instead of boost at 12 PSI onwards.

Well, the TD06-18g hybrid that GReddy ships will move about 32 pounds of air.
Whatever manifold pressure that translates to is dependent on a bunch of other stuff, as we all know.
The TD06-20g that it becomes after being upgraded moves the flow map up a notch to 40 pounds of air or so maximum.
The main problem with the Mitsu turbo is its oil cooled and gets both over-spun and over heated in our application. That doesn't really change by making the compressor wheel bigger, though it does slow it down a bit.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/compress_comparo_20g_18g_3071.jpg

if you need a wrench hander, let me know. im really excellent at putting sockets on socket wrenches and handing them to people under a car.

:lol:

im serious though. if you want some help (even if its just handing wrenches) i'll be there. would love to see this go in.

This is the mass flow i'm getting from the upgraded turbo .
300g/s = 39.6 lbs/min which is spot on to what MM predicted .

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/brettus_rx8/MAFchart.jpg

What Type Of Pressure Is That Translating Too...trying To See Where It Falls On The Compressor Map

it's 5.1 psi at 8250rpm - just did a run to verify

dumb question time - how do you get a psi figure from the chart ?

i got my turbo kit for $1500. ;)

it's 5.1 psi at 8250rpm - just did a run to verify

dumb question time - how do you get a psi figure from the chart ?
You take the psi you run your car at, add 14.7, then divide by 14.7. So for your car Brettus, you're running a pressure ratio of 1.35 at that rpm.

So PR=(Boost pressure + 14.7)/14.7

hmmmmmm - that would put me off the chart - wonder what is going on there ?

Just did some reading around some old Greddy Dyno threads .
This has convinced me that the upgrade turbo wont do anything unless the stock wastegate is modified (spring strengthened ,welded shut, external wastegate fitted ) to allow more boost in the higher rpm range .......

So with the upgrade you will see the same hp numbers as the stock Greddy unless you do something with the wastegate .

that's a lot of effort for a turbo that dies every year.

mine was rebuilt twice, the first rebuild done by mazsport.

I agree - but i'll do what i can with the spring and be content with that till it needs a rebuild ....

im curious how you would accomplish this, i want to upgrade my internal wastegate while my turbo is out but im afraid of doing major mods to make it work

apparently the actuator can be taken apart (if you are clever) and a larger spring put in . There could be a little adjustment with the stock spring (just wind in the clevis as far as it will go ) but not sure that will get you much


edited

you can just buy a new actuator assembly. you can't really take the other one apart and get it back together.

cool - where from and what part no ?

cool - where from and what part no ?

i've been looking on Himni Racing (http://himni-racing.com/). not sure if they have any for the greddy turbo but they have them for the GT3071R.

The TD06-20g that it becomes after being upgraded moves the flow map up a notch to 40 pounds of air or so maximum.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/misc/compress_comparo_20g_18g_3071.jpg

This is really confusing me .
Currently i'm at 41 lbs /min and 6.3 psi . so P1/P2 = 1.45

this puts my turbo way off the chart - what gives ?

Even if im losing say 1.5 psi through the piping my PR would still be off the chart at 1.53 .

Charge temperature.

Charge temperature.

are you saying my charge temp will be too high and I shouldn't run it up there ?
I still don't get it - at 6psi you would need to be around 220g/s to be on the chart which is what the car makes NA .....

The charge temps will be high, but they are also throwing off your calculations.
At max flow, the NA Renesis only pulls about 190 g/sec, which is about 25 lbs.
At a Pr or 1.6 (8psi), you are off the efficiency chart at 280 g/sec.
That doesn't mean the turbo cant push that air, it just means its really hot.
Which, in turn, actually lowers the effective flow.

So , that tells me that i'm better off raising the psi to say 10psi and changing gear earlier 7000 -7500 to stay safe (ish) rather than wind it out to 8500 or so at a lower psi

Yes.
Plus, the motor pretty much stops making boosted power at 7500 RPM, anyway.

ok thanks for that - may have to somehow stage the p2s a little earlier if i am to do that . The secondaries are already at 100% duty cycle (according to my powermod) .

has anyone done a dyno yet with the upgrade?

for the upgrade cost, you may as well get a ball bearing turbo though.

I have it gave me 260hp with no drop off at all after 7500 - but with only 5-6psi from 6500 onwards . May dyno again once io'm back on the road and got it humming at 10psi (if i'm feeling brave)
agree about the ball bearing thing but if you allready have the upgrade I don't think the jump to the MM turbo will be nearly as dramatic ....

I have it gave me 260hp with no drop off at all after 7500 - but with only 5-6psi from 6500 onwards .


whut? no drop off, but it dropped off? Can you hold 9 psi to redline?

I meant no power drop off .

I can get 10psi at 7500 but had issues there . Not sure what I can get at redline - not game to try as my IATs will probably be through the roof

I meant no power drop off .

The power always drops off. It may not feel like it, which is why we need a dyno chart to see what it's doing :)

/\ not necessarily - it only drops off if you go past a certain hp level .
At 260hp with the upgrade turbo it doesn't drop off and I have the dyno to prove it ;)


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/brettus_rx8/TurboDyno.jpg

yeah, I guess you're low enough that it doesn't drop off much. If you raised boost, you'll get a nice midrange gain, but it will drop down to where your peak is now.

i should've been saying this all along. :)

Ahh. A pitchfork carrying member of the mob. How nice of you to stop by.


Look, I dont know you and you sure the fuck dont know me. So dont come posting implying that MY motives are less than honorable. How the fuck do you come off impuning MY name? HOW FUCKING DARE YOU?

Unless you have some shit on me I suggest you STFU and back off.

btw, turbo looks clean. hope you enjoy it.

wonder what happened to carbon - that was his last post ...

Some have less tolerance to the "forum crap" than others ;)

Personally I find it entertaining......better than TV :) :lol:

wonder what happened to carbon - that was his last post ...

I am around. With the "end-of-year" issues at work and at home, I haven't had time to do much else. I hadn't seen this thread since and am surprised that it has gone so long.

I decided to ditch the int-x (which will go on sale at some ridiculous price) and run the accessport (or more accurately the stock pcm.) I got it from Jeff and have it already. I also decided to buy Jeff's upgrade. I bought it and am awaiting delivery sometime in March. I will likely install the Mazsport upgrade this week, tune the car with it, then install the Lucifer's Lighter (or whatever you all are calling the Honeywell 3076 that jeff mods) when I get it in the spring. I might then sell the mitsu unit cheap.

I am currently working on deciding how to stage the injectors that I have. I bought the 650cc and 720(780?)cc from Mazsport but because I am going to ditch the int-x I think I should rearrange the injectors from what scott suggested. I am thinking of keeping the 290 (reds) in their P1 spot, then put the 650s in secondary and the 720s in P2 (or 720 at sec and 650 at p2.) Unfortunately, I dont have the sophistication to make that decision unaided and would welcome advice. I might post this question in its own thread.

I did install my new Bride Gias on lowmax rails. LOTS of headroom, even with a helmet. I will say that my USDM butt barely fits in that JDM seat.

^dibs on the upgraded greddy turbo! wouldn't mind having that lying around when mine craps out. let me know when you are ready to sell. ;)

The upgraded Greddy kicks ass . True story !

Well, the car is approaching completion. I kinda made a iffy decision that bit me in the ass. I sent off my downpipe and exhaust manifold to JetHot for their e-series ceramic coating. I dealt with them before and had good turn around.

Not this time. After numerous calls where they told me that they would call back and let me know where things stood, and after a month of having my parts, I eventually called and asked for my parts back. I got them the next week...coated. The coat looks great and they do good work, but I am a little shocked at their CS. I would be hesitant to send them stuff again (but would still call, I suppose.)

So the day I got the parts, I started bolting things up. Turbo is such a PITA to get in that small space. I should be able to fire things up this weekend. AFTER NEARLY A YEAR IN MY GARAGE!!!!

We will see.

If any one has tips on how to get the turbo and manifold in place while they are in one piece, please post up. I shifted the motor over and everything and still had to put them in one at a time. Such a pain.

Which turbo did you end putting in there?

Jeff's or the Greddy?

How did you end up liking the Bride Seats? And How tall are you btw, I need to get a new seat that will fit my tall self in the car with a helmet on...

Good to see you are getting the car running again.

Which turbo did you end putting in there?

Jeff's or the Greddy?

How did you end up liking the Bride Seats? And How tall are you btw, I need to get a new seat that will fit my tall self in the car with a helmet on...

Good to see you are getting the car running again.

I have Jeff's on order, but installed the upgrade. I will install Jeff's at a friends house as a car proj once I get it. Maybe this summer.

The seat is AWESOME!!!! More headroom than stock, no question. It is a little tight in the hind end, but that was expected. I will measure the seat-to-roof clearance once I remount the seat so that you can know how much space you have. I had to take it out while we installed my K40 and Blinder, and I am adjusting the mounting holes.

I will be ordering the pass side after I pay for paint.

Very Cool keep me posted, being 6'4" doesn't help having a helmet on top of that as well..lol

Well, the car is approaching completion. I kinda made a iffy decision that bit me in the ass. I sent off my downpipe and exhaust manifold to JetHot for their e-series ceramic coating. I dealt with them before and had good turn around.

Not this time. After numerous calls where they told me that they would call back and let me know where things stood, and after a month of having my parts, I eventually called and asked for my parts back. I got them the next week...coated. The coat looks great and they do good work, but I am a little shocked at their CS. I would be hesitant to send them stuff again (but would still call, I suppose.)

So the day I got the parts, I started bolting things up. Turbo is such a PITA to get in that small space. I should be able to fire things up this weekend. AFTER NEARLY A YEAR IN MY GARAGE!!!!

We will see.

If any one has tips on how to get the turbo and manifold in place while they are in one piece, please post up. I shifted the motor over and everything and still had to put them in one at a time. Such a pain.
I installed my turbo with the manifold bolted on still. I only removed the pass. motor mount, dropped the engine as far as it could go, removed the studs from the manifold to add more space. It's still not easy, but I did it. That's all I got. GL.

I installed my turbo with the manifold bolted on still. I only removed the pass. motor mount, dropped the engine as far as it could go, removed the studs from the manifold to add more space. It's still not easy, but I did it. That's all I got. GL.
Ah, I left the studs in. THree on top. Maybe that would have helped. I suppose I could have dropped the engine more. THat like would have helped. I am replacing the studs and bolts on the next go around this summer. Will try to remember this. Thx.

Well after much fiddling and on-again off-again work in the garage, I finally got the gumption to turn the key after nearly a year (well 10 mo.) on jack stands.

And what do you know, the car started right up without any hesitation.

So the new mods (after going under the knife) are a semi-return fuel pump upgrade, 780cc/min and 650cc/min injectors replacing the yellow bank, cold side upgrade as discussed, a bride gias driver seat (waiting for $ to by the pass side,) a K40 radar detector and a Blinder laser jammer. I think that is it.

I also pulled my int-x (if ya'll want it let me know) for the AP. (I also deleted my secondary air injector pump with thanks to Jeff for the blocking plate!! Note: that big honking resistor on the sec air pump mount is the fuel pump resistor. You need that.)

This raises some issues. I dont have a map from Jeff for the tune, I dont want to wait for one and I think I am smart enought to tune my car myself. This last part might prove my undoing, but I have started making my own *.ptm starter map this evening. I think I might be able to pull it off.

But for now, I just need to get the injectors scaled on a cribbed valet map so that I can drive the car to VEIP (emissions; I am 6 mo. late) and to the painter. After paint, I will worry about the tune.

Why don't you just download one of my FI calibrations?
It'll get you in the ballpark and you can at least drive the car safely.

Hey! Whats happining? I would have liked to say "hey" while you were in town, but deadlines are pending and the clock stops for no man. (that is fancy talk for "I had to work.")

Again, thanks for sending out that blocking plate early. You didn't have to do that and I appretiate it.

There are two reasons why I didn't want to use your services at the moment. First, I didnt think it was productive to clog up your email with an other request for a base FI calibration when I can do some work and reading at get to a lower quality but workable result. Second, if I install your maps, I wont be able to tinker with any maps that I am writing.

As for downloading availible maps, I will have to scale my injectors to the appropriate size. If the map is locked, I am stuck. (I also have no idea where I would download said map. I checked your site and this one with no luck.)

Now, maybe there is something that I am not understanding?

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/dl/apcal/

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/dl/apcal/duuuudde..........

And, since you went to bigger injectors, the scaling would be off in a positive direction - maning too rich, not too lean.
So, it would be drivable and safe.

I'll be in Maryland again in the 3rd week of April (20th - 25th).

I want to post up two questions:

1) I forgot that I was not supposed to use synth for the first oil change and loaded up with Mobile 1 as usual. (I am not asking for comments on using synth or Mobile 1.) I forgot that there was a sticker on my upgrade suggesting that 3000miles should be synth free. I have NO intention to drain $30 of oil to put dino in there. In fact, since the dealer, there has never BEEN a dino oil in my car. The turbo might not last a year and I am pulling it when I get the 3071 anyway. However, I am curious WHY synth MIGHT be bad for the first oil change.

2) in AccessTUNER, am I correct to assume that bank 2 fuel injectors applies to P2 and bank 3 applies to secondaries?

And, since you went to bigger injectors, the scaling would be off in a positive direction - maning too rich, not too lean.
So, it would be drivable and safe.

I'll be in Maryland again in the 3rd week of April (20th - 25th).

I'll see you round then. I will bring beer.

I'll load that cali and see what I can see. I just need to get to about 3250 rpm to drive. Currently I start bogging around 2700 rpm with too much fuel. this is with cobb's base map (or their stage 1)

2) in AccessTUNER, am I correct to assume that bank 2 fuel injectors applies to P2 and bank 3 applies to secondaries?

No.
Bank 1 is primaries, bank 2 is secondaries and bank 3 is P2.

FWIW that base map does what I need it to do. No cels, I can rev to about 3500rpm, and is easier to remove than expected. It is perfect to put in someone elses hands as they cant go nuts and hurt the car.

Now to figure out why there is an A table and a B table for the AF targets.... This is going to be fun.

I spent this weekend trying to figure out the AccessTuner Race (ATR) software. I think I made some good headway.

I first made sure that my MAF was scaled appropriately from about 4000rpm to maybe 5000rpm under MM's base calibration. I am not completely clear on this concept, but I am pretty sure that the idea is to look for differences in AFR in open loop from the AFR mapped. This air necessary to bring this difference back to zero is the additive inverse of the difference in air that the MAF is reporting from the true mass of air delivered.

Interestingly, even with a greddy MAF housing, my LTFTs have been pretty close to zero. I am not sure why this should be. I was under the impression that the greddy housing was smaller. Anyway, until I am forced to change, I will just run this one.

After I didnt adjust my MAF calibration, I went ahead and opened the "Stock Style Mode MTv100" map and started poking around. It became obvious pretty quickly that the first thing to do was scale injectors, then RESCALE the fuel tables. I rescaled the injectors, but noticed no change in behaviour of the car. The fuel tables were much more difficult to understand.

The biggest issue blocking my understanding of how to tune, was understanding "Load." I am still not completely clear on calculated load, but my assumption is that load is some how linked to VE. While I dont have any way to crib responses from the car while boosted under control of some other piggyback, nor un-boosted, i did follow "load" while driving out of boost. It looks to me that the AP reported "load" is a percent of output at a theoretical 100%VE. The "Calculated Load" in AccessTuner Race, looks to be a fraction of the same number. If this were the case, then I would be boosting into ranges of a map that would need to be scaled much higher than 1. In fact, my very very rough guess would be that boosting to 14lbs would require a map scaling to at least 2 (this rough guess is not only based on a known error (that doubling boost doubles mass flux) but seems to be incorrect altogether as I achieved loads of 170 at only 8 lbs or so of boost.) I then scaled my fueling maps to 2.

Scaling to 2 has some advantages as the evenly spaced Calc. Load steps are simple tenths. I kept the tenth map columns and transfered them to my new map. I filled in everything with 0.73 that I thought MIGHT be in boost. At this point i had a very, very poor understanding of load instead of just a very poor understanding. I hadn't, at the time, equated the load on reported by the AP to the calc load on the maps. I then took the car out and repeatedly tried to get the AFRs to drop just prior to boost. This never happened so I pushed the low lambdas deeper into the lower load and tried again, but with no success.

At this point, I figured the relationship between load and calc load, and started understanding where I would want to enrich the map. I figured that anything under 3500 rpm would not be able to get into high load, i.e., the bottom left and upper right part of the maps are somewhat unused. I also noted on the AP the basic cruise load, and load just prior to boost, in a very rough way. Using this info, I could put my low lambda points.

I took the car out and expected to get good AFRs. Unfortunately, I noted that just prior to boost I was getting AFRs around 19!!! This was nearly instantanous and at low RPM and low boost (ebc set at 3.9lbs). I remembered right then that there were limiters on load in the ATR. I went back in and set the load limiters up to near or at 2 and headed back out.

BINGO! Car MOVES! AFRs under boost are nice and flat and close to what I set them (I set to 10.7; I am getting about 11.1.) Boost holds to decent revs. (Figure 1 is Load vs AFR.)

On the downside, my transitions into boost are crap and I get a consistent bog.

I will post up my map for ya'll to look at.

There are major issues that I am not sure about. For instance, why do I get uncontroled flow at high load (Figure 2: Note the "Bulge" in airflow at high load. The graph is filtered for rpm >4k, TPS 30-100%.) Also, I have got to figure how to transition from closed to open loop.

I will say at this point that I have NO idea what I am doing, so dont go use it or this method on your car. Your car will certanly explode, or at a minimum, be permanantly damaged.

do you have access to a logger to plot your rpm vs load vs AFR ?
You will need this - I have found a chart like shown below invaluable for tuning


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/brettus_rx8/maf330.jpg

once you get this pretty right you will find you can pretty much use the same lambda values in all cells at each rpm row from 100% up

You mean like this? Sure. I figured using plots that eliminate time give you more data from multiple runs and make it a little neater. It takes more time for me to set up these multiple plots as well.


http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136104&d=1238383843

BTW, I am not sure what is going on in the afr chart. I just randomly pulled a run. Not sure what was going on.


So just set the target boosted AFR to every cell above 100%? What about in between?

Thanks

looking pretty good - the spike from Aux port needs to be knocked back a little - hit every point on the 6500rpm row and above 100% load and drop the lambda value by 3-4 % for that row only. You can lean it out 5-6k range also but take it a few % at a time

You can leave everything below 100% unless you notice it running rich somewhere

Thanks man! Will try it out and post back. Might take a week or so, tho.

here is what they mean by load, according to SAE standards:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136105&stc=1&d=1238384725

oh and for airflow:

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/flow-mass/calculator/pound-per-minute-%5Blb/min%5D-to-gram-per-second-%5Bg/s%5D/

most compressor maps are displayed in lb/minute, so you can trace where you are on the map if you convert the units.

That is a good read. I am thinking that I need to scale my map out to 2.2-2.3 just for safety because I would like to reach about 330g/sec air flow.

Of course, I have several other issues to sort. I would like to get the MAF cali'ed over a larger flow profile (for stable and accurate AFR) and the injectors compensated (for accurate AFR), the AFR zeroed onto about 11.5 in boost (maybe 11.9? final), the closed-open transition evened out and the AFRs up to about 15.0 in cruise.

That is a good read. I am thinking that I need to scale my map out to 2.2-2.3 just for safety because I would like to reach about 330g/sec air flow.

.

330 g/s should be well within the range you already have ?

Yeah, but there is something(s) funky going on that I dont understand.

Without any error or some other behavour that I dont understand. I should be at around 150% load at my current max flow, which I am, but it looks like I have excursions to 300 g/sec even as flow drops (see load vs flow). If you look at my time trace, you can see load dropping while flow increases. IATs as far as I can remember were near ambient, but I will log them next time. Is this a MAF scaling issue? A separate behavior? If I dont understand what the hell is going on, does it makes sense, to be safe at 330 g/sec and 10 psi (just on the edge of the chart, IIRC), to buffer of 20-40%? These would be calc. loads near 2 on average.

have a look at the chart I posted - load drops away as rpms increase .

Yeah. You're right. Must be increasing IATs limiting mass transfer at high boost. You (and I hope to be) right on the edge of the chart. This makes nearly complete sense now. That is just a little scary.

So I will be completely fine with calcload maxing at 2.

Thanks dude.

BTW isnt is, like, REALLY early morning where you are>??

Here you go Carbon - first dyno of cold side upgrade .....

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=170884

Über cool. Trying to get there, but still working out kinks in my ATR maps. Not even tuning yet.

Anyone willing to make a few comments on my timing that I cobbled together from teh stock maps and generalized info from the forum? I was mistakenly running on a stock timing map under boost. Hopefully I didnt break anything.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=136590&d=1239220242

I'm running a few more degrees in the mid range than you and similar up top . Can't say if that is a good thing or not - but have had no issues with it .

just remembered - I did run a lot more retarded timing at first and found my egts were higher than optimal . After some discussion with MM i increased it to where i'm at now and found egts came down a good 20 deg c

Well, I tried it out with an updated MAF scale and it feels good. The car sounded very raspy at load and just felt odd. Now the car sounds deeper. I will do a few days of data collection to get my MAF complete and then address the timing later. I think that I have done about 20% of the total work needed to get the car going from scratch. I prolly put 100 hours in so far just gettin the maps to a point that will drive the car safely. At least, I think I am safe for now. I flogged the car pretty hard on a stock timing map unknowingly. I guess that is how it goes. THanks to Chickenwafer for the heads-up.

wow - stock map !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at what psi ?

P2=5-8. Unknown at the UIM.

I know. Could have been some bad shit.

This is why there are so few folks with zero experience tuning on the ATR. I highly recommend letting an expert do the work.

On the other hand I wouldn't even trade for tits and beer for doing this myself .

Hey carbon - I assume you are logging knock (or kncok retard). Overly aggressive timing will result in big time knock. Depending on how your boost comes on you will need to back off from the stock naturally aspirated timing.

^The knock sensor, I am told, doesnt work so well on a rotary. Basically, but the time it senses anything, it is too late.

I have found another issue that is going to derail my return to form. I just discovered that one of the upgraded injectors that I added is a low impedance injector. The stock pcm is likely not able to handle this low resistance and could fry. Maybe. The other two injectors that I added are high impedance.

This was likely fine when I bought the injectors as I was running the microtech Int-x which can handle the low resistance. Now I need to determine if this is a big enough issue to tear the car apart and install new, high impedance injectors.

I should note that I have been driving around for weeks now with no issue...yet.

You can buy a resistor box to make the low impedance injectors, high impedance. I do not believe there are low impedance 780cc injectors available. 650cc is about the limit, but I could be wrong. (I did a quick google and no high impedance 780cc injectors came up)

Found some - RC engineering makes a 750cc high impedance injector. The other option is to get another pair of the Siemens 650cc injectors that you currently have.

Anyone willing to make a few comments on my timing that I cobbled together from teh stock maps and generalized info from the forum? ]
did you read this thread ?
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=153091&highlight=timing

yeah. That is how I put together my maps. The biggest issue is that most of that information is based on load equating to pressure (MAP system). Your map on there was most helpful. But it is a bit of a stretch to safely convert from a RPM vs boost timing map to a RPM vs Calc. load timing map. There was just enough info to extrapolate.

The upgraded cold side makes the GReddy turbo, effectively, a 20g.
Its good for about 8 pounds more air.

Doesn't do anything for turbine flow.

I think this might be wrong . I think what Carbon has is more like a T04E 50 trim
54mm inducer 75mm exducer .

Can you confirm Carbon ?

I cannot. However, my understanding is that the Greddy T618Z is similar to the TD05-18G, which is is a 50 trim with a 50.5mm inducer, but I dont know if this is the inducer that I have. In anycase, I should have what ever inducer I started with from the T618Z. The new cold side is now a 20g which is a 68mm exducer. The 3071r isnt even 75mm on the coldside.

Now if you are asking if I actually measured anything, I did not.

A TD05-18G is a much larger turbo than the Greddy snail. The upgraded wheels might be similarly sized but the Greddy housing is tiny. Much smaller than the TD05-16G in my Evo.

Oops, I think I meant the TD0618g. That is at least the map being used in comparison. Slightly different inducer. 52.5mm

Again, I have no primary measurements to back up these "facts." Nor do I know the specs of the turbo that is now whispering sweet nothings into my engine.

I scaled the pic in your first post and came up with around 54mm which would make it bigger than a 20g .

Ok, That was skillful. Not sure how you did that.

Just to understand a little more an to clarify the nominclature, the TD0618g, and possibly the T618Z, have 50.5inducer/68mm exducer compressors, yes?

The 20g should be 52.6/68? I am assuming that we can see the inducer on the compressor, but not the exducer. Where are you measuring? Fin tip to fin tip?

I assume that the hotside is a 60 trim (EDIT: actually, the hotside is a 72 trim by my calculation. Hotside trim on the GT3071r is 80)? I really dont know if it is 50 or 60. For the TD06, the smaller (exit) side of the turbine wheel (exducer is where the gasses exit and are therefore is he radius of the face of the wheel that you can see on the hotside. On the coldside the gas enters "facing" the wheel and exits on the edge. Hence the inducer radius is the radius of the wheel that you can see on the cold side. Confusing change in name.) is listed as 55.1. On my hot side the exducer diameter looks much larger than the inducer on the coldside. So 52mm seems more resonable than 54mm.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/tech_center/tech_102/enlarged_Images/tech102_enlarged.gif

Ok, That was skillful. Not sure how you did that.


I used the theory of relativaty , LOL

Although Greddy uses Mitsu turbo components, they do not use Mitsu nomenclature. Garrett has their own nomenclature as well. BTW a TD06 tubo is a very large turbine housing. It is comparable size wise to Garrett T3 turbines. No way any RX8 turbo is comparable. There is more to turbo sizing then just the wheel sizes. BTW i'm just helping carbonrx8 out. I'm not trying to be a know it all but I hate it when greddy turbo RX8 guys actually think that their "18G" turbo is bigger than what is installed in an Evo from the factory. That is simply incorrect.

Shadow1,

RX8 greddy turbo has a bigger turbine wheel than the evo turbo. The evo turbo is a TD05 version with a TD05H turbine wheel. The compressor on the evo is a evo style 16g. It is as efficient as the 18g but the inducer is smaller than the 18g. The turbine on the Greddy 8 turbo is a TD06H turbine which is waaaay better than the 5h that is in the evo. All bearings and internal parts are interchangable in the 05/06. The Evo turbine housings are 10cm2, just like the rx8 just a totally different design. Evo is twin scroll and the rx8 is single scroll. Compressor housings are about equal to one another.

I prefer the evo compressor wheel, but neither is a good application for a wankel engine. I have a EVO3 16G in my 323 GTX in the picture. That thing is about perfect for that little 1.8 liter engine. 22 psi by 3800 RPM. It throws you back in the seat so hard it isn't even funny :D.

:pokeowned

The turbocharger guru speaketh!