I've had KONI's, Bilsteins, KYB's, Tokico's, BOGE's and just about every other OTS shock out there installed on different vehicles that I've owned. That being said I think the shocks that I have had the best luck with have always been Bilsteins. Considering that even with the KONI's I wouldn't be adjusting them that much I wonder if I'm better off with the Bilsteins.

Is anybody running the Bilsteins HD's competitively on a stock car? Are there any arguments against the Bilstein other then they're not what all the "fast" guys are running?

I've had KONI's, Bilsteins, KYB's, Tokico's, BOGE's and just about every other OTS shock out there installed on different vehicles that I've owned. That being said I think the shocks that I have had the best luck with have always been Bilsteins. Considering that even with the KONI's I wouldn't be adjusting them that much I wonder if I'm better off with the Bilsteins.

Is anybody running the Bilsteins HD's competitively on a stock car? Are there any arguments against the Bilstein other then they're not what all the "fast" guys are running?

I do not know of anyone using them at all. Need to make sure they are legal, perch height, length etc. Try them, if they suck its only money. :)

You know what they say about pioneers...they're the ones with the arrows in their backs...:lol2:

All kidding aside, you would have to figure out the valving, ots would probably be way too soft...I ASSume.

I do not know of anyone using them at all. Need to make sure they are legal, perch height, length etc. Try them, if they suck its only money. :)


Well they're only $89 a piece from www.allshocks.com:tightass:

Seriously, I've read a couple reviews and from what I can tell they make the car a little less lofty and a touch firmer. Bilstein usually make a pretty good product so I am sure they're an upgrade from the OE Tokicos. The more I drive this car the more the shocks are starting to bother me, I feel like the car is just bouncing all over the place......:dubs:

Bilstein valving is velocity-based... the harder the impact, the more open the valve becomes. For small, slow motions, they're very stiff.

I'm thinking of trying a set. I've used them on a 944 before and really liked them. The HDs are supposed to be an "OEM replacement" shock, so perches should be the same as stock.

If the shocks have "snap ring" tops, I am going to HEAVILY recommend getting them.
Revalves are only $65 each and you can do some really cool stuff with those dampers if you want to go the revalve route.
REALLY, REALLY cool stuff.
Hmmm....Hey Joe! Want to try out some revalved dampers?
FM

Edit: The only saving grace would be easy revalving, but I think adjustability trumps that...

Don't do it. Just spend the money on the Konis and be done with it until you spend more money on the custom Konis.

Signed,

An idiot with D-specs

And, yes, everyone told me not to do it (especially baghead:))

Adjusters are a nice toy but most people mess with stuff and don't even have shock dyno's of their dampers.
Bilsteins are a VERY VERY high quality damper. I have visited the shop in Poway and it is VERY clean and well run.
Check out this site for more on how good Bilsteins work:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
Read the shock section.
FM

I had KONI's on my MINI Cooper and loved them for racing but not for anything else......Add to that they started leaking after about 1.5 years and I finally took them off and put the oem dampers back on.

Adjustable shocks are nice to play around with but I do not have the equipment to properly analyze the settings after every run......

Bilsteins will make an RX-8 on stock springs look like an off road vehicle ...

Bilsteins will make an RX-8 on stock springs look like an off road vehicle ...
And likely be .75 of a second faster on the autox course if revalved for stock class autox versus the OTS yellow ones!
FM

This is what revalving Bilsteins can do for you:

PRO1 - Pro Indexed Stock (top)
# T Name Car # Year Make/Model
1 T Fastmike Lillejord 1 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.119 [53.673] 100.000
2 T Kyle Freiheit 166 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.502 [54.139] 99.139
3 T Kevin Dietz 77 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.702 [54.382] 98.696
4 T Ron Bauer 190 2007 Mazda MX-5 (XCSP)
44.712 [52.914] 98.674
5 T Joe Goeke 49 2006 Mazda Mx-5 (XCSP)
45.317 [53.629] 97.356

Joe coned his last run which was pretty close to Ron's time.
Kevin was thrilled that he beat the CSP monster by a whooping .010!!! WOOHOO!

But then the new Sheriff and his new Deputy came in on their revalved Bilsteins..... WHAP! WHAP!
Oh...I went for MAXIMUM gas pressure too. Yea...it looks like a 4x4 but sure seems to work well.
Well enough that Kevin's shocks are in SoCal right now getting the FastMikesecretvalving done to them.

FM

And likely be .75 of a second faster on the autox course if revalved for stock class autox versus the OTS yellow ones!
FM

Like you would have a clue as to how fast an RX-8 can go.... You packed it in after what three events? :icon_no2:

I have the HDs and did a short evaluation on them here http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=112151

I have done another track day on them and I am still pleased with my purchase. I really think the suitability of these depends on your goals and your expectations. They are not a hard core stiff shock that will jar you and make you feel like you are a real racer. Instead, you can live with them as a daily driver and not be let down when you take it to your favorite road course.

There are many view points on suspension tuning and I am no expert on the subject but have done a bit of reading. A suspension that has some travel and gives a bit does have merit on a road course. Auto crossing may be a bit different and the speeds are significantly lower. Since I am not and autocrosser, I can't give an informed opinion on what is best there.

At any rate, the price of admission is low, the quality is considered among the best, and they can be easily revalved to meet any application without sacrificing the Bilstein quality.

I have the HDs and did a short evaluation on them here http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=112151

I have done another track day on them and I am still pleased with my purchase. I really think the suitability of these depends on your goals and your expectations. They are not a hard core stiff shock that will jar you and make you feel like you are a real racer. Instead, you can live with them as a daily driver and not be let down when you take it to your favorite road course.

There are many view points on suspension tuning and I am no expert on the subject but have done a bit of reading. A suspension that has some travel and gives a bit does have merit on a road course. Auto crossing may be a bit different and the speeds are significantly lower. Since I am not and autocrosser, I can't give an informed opinion on what is best there.

At any rate, the price of admission is low, the quality is considered among the best, and they can be easily revalved to meet any application without sacrificing the Bilstein quality.

While it is a nice write up the fact that you changed your springs makes it irrelevant for anyone that is going to run in stock.

Sure the price of admission is low to start... Then add on a revalve and you are even with the Konis. Oh wait you did not nail it on the first revalve, how many will it take to get them just right? If you are going to dick around with all of that you might as well spend the money for some real race shocks that are double adjustable and have a lot of range. By the time you pay for multiple revalves, shipping as well as your time to pull them on and off you have blown your season. :scratchhe

While it is a nice write up the fact that you changed your springs makes it irrelevant for anyone that is going to run in stock.

Sure the price of admission is low to start... Then add on a revalve and you are even with the Konis. Oh wait you did not nail it on the first revalve, how many will it take to get them just right? If you are going to dick around with all of that you might as well spend the money for some real race shocks that are double adjustable and have a lot of range. By the time you pay for multiple revalves, shipping as well as your time to pull them on and off you have blown your season. :scratchhe

Well, my season is already blown so that doesn't concern me much.....Mid Pack Mike is spanking the SFR folks pretty good up here so using him as a bench mark should give me a baseline for vehicle set up and driving.

I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to go out on my own and try to reinvent the wheel. The fact I like Bilsteins better then KONI's has more to do with my personal experiences rather then lap times.

That being said, I've only used Bilstein's on cars that have been lowered and not interested in running around in car that looks like the general lee on off road tires.....

Like you would have a clue as to how fast an RX-8 can go.... You packed it in after what three events? :icon_no2:

Yea. You are correct. I was trying to lead the pack pre Koni S/A availability and gave up because of the rear suspension design and TQ weaknesses of the 8.

Local PAX wins are important to me and I hate courses that trap the 8 at the bottom of second gear.
We have a lot of those up here in Seattle. Slow 180's do the 8 no good. Especially if you can't go to first or get revved up in second somewhere on course.

I just designed a recent course that let Joe brush the revlimiter in 2nd 3 times but still met all SCCA legality rules.
Joe had fun on that one. Most courses are not like that though.

Anyhow, I am getting better at this car set-up thing and others are thinking the same thing and copying my stuff.

Did I mention that I only have revalved the rears once(1st try) and haven't touched the fronts yet on the SOL?
Uh...I think I went in the right direction.
We'll see this weekend. If me and my codriver(s) whoop em again, I think I might be onto something.:rock:
I still think Ron is going to win the "faster" events though.
Shocks only do so much. My car is a heavy and wide low hp tank and the math starts to work against you.

From what I have seen/read/experienced, high end shocks have adjusters but those adjusters might not adjust the area you want to adjust.
Most people want that "adjustability" even if it does them no good.
I still can't figure out why....

Don't worry Jason, if we get Joe's or Shelbi's car winning the pax game up here, I will let you in on the secret sauce formula.
What works here seems to work well at HPT.

FM

GD, BS must literally ooze from your pores ... :rolleyes:

Okay, so in the spirit of diversity I ordered a set of the Bilsteins......:icon_no2:

Once I get the shocks I'll do a quick write up on this board.....Of course, if at the next event I beat Mid Pack Mike on my sloppy 2nd Kumho's then we'll know something has improved.....:lol2:

BTW - www.allshocks.com is a division of Turner Motorsports.

Of course, if at the next event I beat Mid Pack Mike on my sloppy 2nd Kumho's then we'll know something has improved.....:lol2:

You will have to get in the line for that :lol2:

I'd be most interested in your experiment. Adjustment on Koni is not that big of deal to me, and leaking oil seems to be a fairly common problem on OTS units, not just RX-8 application but others too.

Yea. You are correct. I was trying to lead the pack pre Koni S/A availability and gave up because of the rear suspension design and TQ weaknesses of the 8.

Local PAX wins are important to me and I hate courses that trap the 8 at the bottom of second gear.
We have a lot of those up here in Seattle. Slow 180's do the 8 no good. Especially if you can't go to first or get revved up in second somewhere on course.

I just designed a recent course that let Joe brush the revlimiter in 2nd 3 times but still met all SCCA legality rules.
Joe had fun on that one. Most courses are not like that though.

Anyhow, I am getting better at this car set-up thing and others are thinking the same thing and copying my stuff.

Did I mention that I only have revalved the rears once(1st try) and haven't touched the fronts yet on the SOL?
Uh...I think I went in the right direction.
We'll see this weekend. If me and my codriver(s) whoop em again, I think I might be onto something.:rock:
I still think Ron is going to win the "faster" events though.
Shocks only do so much. My car is a heavy and wide low hp tank and the math starts to work against you.

From what I have seen/read/experienced, high end shocks have adjusters but those adjusters might not adjust the area you want to adjust.
Most people want that "adjustability" even if it does them no good.
I still can't figure out why....

Don't worry Jason, if we get Joe's or Shelbi's car winning the pax game up here, I will let you in on the secret sauce formula.
What works here seems to work well at HPT.

FM

Comparing PAX results across different cars, drivers, and classes to argue the advantage of one shock over another doesn't really mean much. It may make you happy, but in the overall scheme of things it's hard to make a case that the "advantage" came from PAX factors, course dependability, driver performance, course conditions during each run group, etc.

Stick a set of Bilstein's on a B Stock RX-8, then get Mike or Joe or Jason to run it back-to-back against their own car. That's the only way you'll ever know if one shock has a clear advantage over another.

Kevin is in the same class as mine(CS) and basically has an identical car(ZOK) other than my revalved rear Bilsteins.
We ran at the same time/same course etc.
THAT is a very good comparison that says my car has gotten faster due to the shocks and the shocks only. My codriver got second place against those guys which is another good data point saying my car is better now post shock change.

I do agree that looking at CSP versus CS is not a fair comparison but Ron has been having some pretty good luck with his new car and I was excited to win by so much over him.
We'll see what this weekend brings.

OH!!!!
RX8 Bilsteins are "snap ring top" models and all dimensions are identical to stock is the word I am getting.
It is likely(VERY, likely) that they will need revalved to compete at the top level.
We have 2 RX8's so we are going to build one to compare to the other(Joe's) to see if anymore BS can come "oozing out of my pores".
It is nice having 2 cars to compare...Just like we are doing with the Solstice(s).
MUCH better than making changes on just one car imo.
We'll see how it goes.
I am excited! Bilsteins rule!

FM

Kevin is in the same class as mine(CS) and basically has an identical car(ZOK) other than my revalved rear Bilsteins.
We ran at the same time/same course etc.
THAT is a very good comparison that says my car has gotten faster due to the shocks and the shocks only. My codriver got second place against those guys which is another good data point saying my car is better now post shock change.

FM

And you guys were both on the same size and model tire with equal life in them?

OH!!!!
RX8 Bilsteins are "snap ring top" models and all dimensions are identical to stock is the word I am getting.
It is likely(VERY, likely) that they will need revalved to compete at the top level.
We have 2 RX8's so we are going to build one to compare to the other(Joe's) to see if anymore BS can come "oozing out of my pores".
It is nice having 2 cars to compare...Just like we are doing with the Solstice(s).
MUCH better than making changes on just one car imo.
We'll see how it goes.
I am excited! Bilsteins rule!

FM

I just ordered a set :)

Adjustability should make a difference. The whole idea that the Bilstein's can be revalved reflects the benefits of modification of damping characteristics. Unless you autocross at the same site all of the time, adjustability should matter.

Also, having a Solstice that looks like a 4x4 might be less of a problem than having an RX8 that looks that way. Adjustability of camber in the front of an RX8 that rides high is a major issue.

According to the Turner Motorsports Rep the heigth increase should not be any more then a 1/8 of an inch if any.....Personally, if they raise my car I'll be a little disapointed but I'm hoping that the height stays the same. As for revalving the shocks, I may do that in the future but for right now I'm just looking for something that is better then the stock Tokicos that work well on the street and track.

I think the KONI is probably a better autocross shock off the shelf even though the Bilsteins are supposed to be stiffer shock in certain situations. Obviously the KONI's are proven and Bilsteins have yet to be explored but I've never been very good a following the leader even if it is the smart thing to do.....:banghead:

And you guys were both on the same size and model tire with equal life in them?

Kevin's tires are 22 or 26 run tires..(You know the size we use)
Kevins were the "day 2" special pick tires from SD which got 6 runs + Pro(14 runs?) + 6 more runs at our first event.)
I think Kevin ran his Day 1 SD tires for the first Pro runs so he could have been on 22 run tires at the day in question.
Mine had 15 runs on them up to then with 2 wicked spins with pretty black curlycue skid marks that went on and on(both at 55mph+)from my codrivers at the first event. (partially from a now fixed mechanical problem).

Kevin and I both have the same weight wheels and use the same tire pressure gauge on both cars..Same pressure, same fuel etc.
My car is white and his is black. Maybe my paint weighs less???LOL!

The visible difference between the cars was huge at the rear.(which has always been my complaint about the ZOK when "I" am driving and why I had such a prob in the long slaloms at Nats.
Not anymore!
Call and ask Kevin (or Ron?) what they thought of how the car looked while on course versus Kevin's car.

Cmon Jason! Get on team Bilstein!

FM

Cmon Jason! Get on team Bilstein!

FM

Why would I spend a dime on a car that is already a winner?

It would be one thing if you could have even matched the BS guys up there and were looking for an edge, you were well behind them and expect shocks to make up the gap. :rolleyes:

Get those shocks on for the tour... I bet you are looking at 4th. :spank:

Okay, so in the spirit of diversity I ordered a set of the Bilsteins......:icon_no2:

Once I get the shocks I'll do a quick write up on this board.....Of course, if at the next event I beat Mid Pack Mike on my sloppy 2nd Kumho's then we'll know something has improved.....:lol2:

You should have been at the last event, I left the door wiiiiiiiiiide open for whoever wanted it...I was loopy with allergies, having spent the previous day cutting down Oak and Apple trees and had a hard time staying awake for a whole lap...I even took off on my last run with the A/C on and my seat back :uhh:

Anyhow, when you get the Bilsteins on, we could do some back to back and see what's up.

BTW, why has Jason's "mid pack Mike" stuck? You guys know I'm either on the podium or in the bleachers...there is no "mid pack"...jeez, now I see guys who have never even run against me using it on unrelated topics...I guess it's "mine", whether I want it or not! :lol2:

Adjustability should make a difference. The whole idea that the Bilstein's can be revalved reflects the benefits of modification of damping characteristics. Unless you autocross at the same site all of the time, adjustability should matter.

Also, having a Solstice that looks like a 4x4 might be less of a problem than having an RX8 that looks that way. Adjustability of camber in the front of an RX8 that rides high is a major issue.

Adjusters can be of help unless your adjusters never meet the damping rates of a well setup non adjustable shock. Will your adjuster help you adjust "your" shocks to fit the site? sure.
Will that automagically make them faster than a shock that is revalved that works well on all asphalt bumpy or smooth, rain or shine? "I" don't think so because that has not been "my" experience.
I have owned lots of Koni Yellows. OTS/revalved/DA etc and not one of those has ever approached how good the revalved Bilsteins work or feel.
Didn't matter how much I turned the knobs. Never as good or as fast. IMO of course.

I don't get too hung up on static camber while at rest.
Max the adjusters out and what you get is what you get. Just because your car sits 1/4" lower and has .2 more neg camber when it is sitting there while the motor is off does not mean that you will have more camber while on course and turning versus the car whose camber is measured sitting 1/4" higher at .2 less neg.
People degas shocks to "lower" the car and "make" more static camber but I am not of that camp. I worry more about cavitation than making more static camber at rest.

We'll see how it all works out. Looks like from the earlier post that we are past the point of no return.

BTW, why has Jason's "mid pack Mike" stuck? You guys know I'm either on the podium or in the bleachers...there is no "mid pack"...jeez, now I see guys who have never even run against me using it on unrelated topics...I guess it's "mine", whether I want it or not! :lol2:

You guys can settle this once and for all in Packwood.... mwood VS FM, the loser is mid-pack mike for life. :boxing_sm :icon16: :rollingla

You guys can settle this once and for all in Packwood.... mwood VS FM, the loser is mid-pack mike for life. :boxing_sm :icon16: :rollingla

I think FM has lost it forever, now that he has won a number of Tours and done podiums at Nationals...I can't make any of those claims. :)

Hmmmm......Packwood, I've never been and hear it's wonderful that time of year.....

Jason, you bring your wheels and tires and I'll drive up my car. Fly in, fly out....Check out the Bilsteins, there's an excuse in your back pocket if you need it and you'll get to share a room with a sleep walking zombie.....Sounds like fun.

Hmmmm......Packwood, I've never been and hear it's wonderful that time of year.....

Jason, you bring your wheels and tires and I'll drive up my car. Fly in, fly out....Check out the Bilsteins, there's an excuse in your back pocket if you need it and you'll get to share a room with a sleep walking zombie.....Sounds like fun.

Justed checked the dates for the Packwood Tour and it's not going to work for me....It's the same weekend as the Pebble Beach Concours and I'm pretty sure my attendance to this event is written in a contract somewhere.....Maybe next time.

I have owned lots of Koni Yellows. OTS/revalved/DA etc and not one of those has ever approached how good the revalved Bilsteins work or feel.

they were either never valved right or you're brain dead ...

they were either never valved right or you're brain dead ...

jeez, Mark, tell us how you really feel.

well...at least you left an "out" (either/or)....kinda...:lol2:

Just because I have moved away from the K-yellows doesn't mean I didn't win top pax or tour events with them from time to time.
Serious money into getting the yellow's to the point where "I" could do that though. Converted to D/A's etc.
Remember 04 SD tour, FM vs Chiles?
That was a very exciting race. Tied to the .000 going into the last runs.
He sure was a lot nicer to me AFTER the event than before.

Even after all that $$$ and tuning, they did not have the feel and confidence and repeatability and trust that I now get with the Bilsteins.

Heck! Why not setup a 8 with revalved Bilsteins?

Once you revalve them, you have an EXCELLENT pure autox shock if you get the valving right or even in the ballpark.
I am getting better and better at that with the more experiments that I do 2!

Also, I think that a damper(I don't care how many adjustments it has) is never "perfect" for a complete course.
It is impossible to have perfection unless you have fully active suspension.

Why would the Bilstein be a better engineered or designed shock? I've heard that from a number of people who seem to have well respected opinions. Hey, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but I'm curious to hear thoughts.

I have seen a Penske revalved to match a 2812... I am sure with enough work you could get the RX-8 to go fast on any shock. I however have doubts that the guy that packed it in after a few events will be able to. At this point if FM made the car 1 sec faster he might be able to keep up with Joe based off of his past performance when he actually tried to run the RX-8.

We all know FM likes to talk, usually about how fast his buddies are. So I am sure we will hear about how fast he makes the RX-8 go but I doubt we will see him run it outside of a few local events.

:stickpoke

I like talking about how fast my buddies are too, humblepie I guess. I only wish I beat them as often as mike does.

I can't even begin to tell you how many car sites I have read threads that go on and on and on about Twin Tube vs Monotube, Single vs Double, Degassed vs normal. Everyone has an opinion because they have won on that particular shock(ie Twin Tube, converted DA, Degassed etc) and sometimes the argument gets pretty ugly. What I have taken away is that on a stock car, low speed compression is KING. It may be a bandaid as it mimicks stiffer spring rates, but it is a huge one that really helps and the fact is, you can get this a limited number of places, through revalving a Koni Yellow, a Bilstein or going to something custom(DA etc). Rebound is a bandaid as well and does make the car more stiff and predictable but at the expense overall traction. Unlike compression, you can get this anywhere, OTS shocks, Koni Yellows(crank em up), Bilsteins(look at Miata R shocks) and all the other guys(tokico, AGX, etc).

I am not going to get into the specifics of monotube vs twin tube, but in an apples to apples comparison, monotubes are better(bilstein, koni 2800, penske etc) but not absolutely necessary.

The # thing that I see keeping fast drivers fast are car predictability/repeatability and the driver familiarity with that setup. At the end of the day you still have to drive the car and what fast guys like FM, Jason, mid-pack mike and TeamBaghead all have in common is that they have the shocks on their cars that they are comfortable driving at the limit in.

Flame away if you want, but Mike's solstice feels a whole hell of lot better then it did. Do I think it would be faster on koni yellows? Who cares, I will probably never know, I like the way it feels now. I will gaurentee this though, if somebody starts beating Ulllose every weekend in a RX-8, and the only difference between the cars are shocks and driver, he will be making some changes.

Well said Kyle.

Jason: Making the 8 "fast on any shock" is not my goal.
Making the 8 FASTER than the fast ones is.
You can doubt than I can do it but that will just make me try harder. Growing up, people would tell me "you can't do that". Uh..wanna bet?
I am pretty easily baited into doing stuff. Andy gets me "going" all the time.

Yea...I really tried hard with the 8 for those 3 events:uhh: not.

I mostly went to the Miata over the 8(besides not liking the 8) since I had something to prove in ES after all my ballyhooing and met my goal with that one.
The MiataR is a good choice in ES.
I might still be running that car if not for the SOl which I considered more "grown up".
Solstice is a given now.
The car will be plenty good and fun and competitive from now on and mine is working well for me. I don't do as well in Kevin's for whatever reason(s).

RX8 is a fun experiment. I will know pretty quickly if I got something going in the right direction.
I will likely share my damping curves/rates too. As long as everyone is nice to me.
:)
But Jason is right, once my little experiment is done, it will be unlikely that you will see me much of me in BS.
You might see the shocks though!

FM

:newbie:

The RX8 is the second car I've autocrossed and the first that I've taken more than a dozen runs on non oem shocks (there was an infamous experiment with Penske DA's on my old Z06:puke: )...so, I have no idea what I like or don't like...therefore, I'm all ears and looking forward to learning how people choose valving and what the implications are of changing.

I will say the setup ULLLLLLLLLLOSE has shared with me seems to be very, very good. It will be hard to improve on, I'd bet. ;)

Why would the Bilstein be a better engineered or designed shock? I've heard that from a number of people who seem to have well respected opinions. Hey, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but I'm curious to hear thoughts.

If you haven't read the shock section of the link I put up on page 1, DG goes into much more detail of why he likes the Bilsteins. He says it much better than I can.
Here it is again:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

I think it is a combo of many things why I like the Bilsteins.
VERY high quality materials and very good designers and those dang things will do just about anything you ask of them on revalves without failing.
It's all oil and orfices and gas pressure but Bilstein seem to have it figured out for a cheap ass like myself.
Also, I have never had a Bilstein fail.(leak/break/change/whatever).
Damping a year after a rebuild will be the same in 99.99%+ of the time.

It is still amazing to me that I can literally draw a picture on a shock dyno print-out and write "do this" and presto! My shocks come back and they "do this".

Another thing I really like about Bilstein is that they are big into off road racing which really tests the durability of dampers. Can you say 500F degree oil? You learn some stuff when you are designing against that kind of abuse.

When I visited the shop in Poway CA, I was very impressed with the cleanliness of the place and the professionalism that I saw. Lots of microfiber towels protecting shock shafts and parts.

They are nice too. In the past, I have been treated with disrespect and poor customer service from some other "big name" shock companies so I went shopping with some new idea's(actually other's idea's that made sense to me/thanks Andy!) and came across the Bilsteins which seem to fit the bill for what I was looking for.
Others have been very nice to me along the way and I like doing business with those people and would help them out if they needed it and I was able to.

FM

:newbie:

The RX8 is the second car I've autocrossed and the first that I've taken more than a dozen runs on non oem shocks (there was an infamous experiment with Penske DA's on my old Z06:puke: )...so, I have no idea what I like or don't like...therefore, I'm all ears and looking forward to learning how people choose valving and what the implications are of changing.

I will say the setup ULLLLLLLLLLOSE has shared with me seems to be very, very good. It will be hard to improve on, I'd bet. ;)

Here's the deal.....Our next event is at Candlestick:puke:

If you're wooping up on everyone again after your second run you should take my car out with the Bilsteins installed and see how it feels.....I do not know how it's going to feel but I bet it's going to be quite a bit different then your fully compressed KONI's. :SHOCKED:

All kidding aside, you would have to figure out the valving, ots would probably be way too soft...I ASSume.

You are correct Mid...uh..I mean Mike.

Cooper47: take your shocks when you get them and send them to Bilstein in Poway and have them revalved for your specific wants/needs.
Do you want maximum autox performance or some streetability?
What is your "style" of driving?
It will be the best $65 per shock that you will ever spend.
If you are scared of going "all out", you can easily find a happy medium.
Lots of concrete freeway expansion joints in your daily drive? You will notice them more if you go with a typical revalve.
FM

I think FM has lost it forever, now that he has won a number of Tours and done podiums at Nationals...I can't make any of those claims. :)
Thanks...
Hey!If you stay off the cones:nono:, I see great things in your future.
You impressed me in SD.

I will gaurentee this though, if somebody starts beating Ulllose every weekend in a RX-8, and the only difference between the cars are shocks and driver, he will be making some changes.

Yep, I will work on the driver just like I did in 2005 when they were all kicking my @ss. :spank:

It is a stock class car, you can do a lot more to slow a stock car down then you can to speed it up. The worst thing you can do imho is spend all your time fing with the car at events rather than driving it. :dubs:

Yep, I will work on the driver just like I did in 2005 when they were all kicking my @ss. :spank:

It is a stock class car, you can do a lot more to slow a stock car down then you can to speed it up. The worst thing you can do imho is spend all your time fing with the car at events rather than driving it. :dubs:

I totally agree, I know of some national champs that spend the big $$$$$$$$ on high end DAs, do some testing, Set em once and then never touch them again, Seriously.
I think thats why the bilsteins are a great fit for autoxing. Bilsteins come with a ton of rebound out of the box, just add some low speed compression front and rear(proportionately) and DRIVE. Its like those infomercials, Bilstein "set it and forget it" :)

Kyle

Am I wrong in thinking that ride height has something to do with center of gravity? And while static camber does not necessarily impact camber in motion, it seems that if the camber is closer to optimal at the beginning of a corner there would be a basic advantage to that. I believe the difference between a high riding RX8, like mine, and a low riding RX8 is anywhere between .5 and 1 degree. And that will make a difference. No doubt in my mind.

The Bilsteins might work, but this cheap fix is going to cost 360 bucks plus shipping to begin, 260 bucks plus shipping for the revalve, and repeat until the optimal is found. Konis can be had for 575 shipped. It could be argued that the Bilsteins have more potential, but until somebody demonstrates that and shares the recipe, the smart money is on the Konis.

What happens if it rains? Or, what if it is unseasonably warm or cold at Nationals? Even the "set it and forget it" crowd will be making adjustments in the case of climate issues--if they can. Adjustability will pay dividends then.

The best way to see if another car is attaining more lateral G's because of higher static camber solely due to a lower static ride height or other settings is to put a data system inside it and your car with the same tires on both.
Some cars will have more static camber even though ride height is the same as your car. Those are the really good ones that got made.

FM

how will the bilsteins work combined w/ aftermarket springs?

The Bilsteins might work, but this cheap fix is going to cost 360 bucks plus shipping to begin, 260 bucks plus shipping for the revalve, and repeat until the optimal is found. Konis can be had for 575 shipped. It could be argued that the Bilsteins have more potential, but until somebody demonstrates that and shares the recipe, the smart money is on the Konis.

Shipping is free on on orders over $200 from www.allshocks.com

BTW - I think you're right that the smart investment is to buy the KONI's for $575, set em up like Jason and go out to see where you stand.......Personally, I don't want to deal with the KONI's on the street and have better experiences with Bilsteins.

My objective with these shocks is to get something better then the stock Tokicos that I don't have to mess with or worry about. I'm going to call Bilstein to see what my options are for revalving but chances are since I'm running on stock springs they'll work pretty good OTS. I'll keep everyone posted....

Looks like the $89 shocks are gone according the website:confused: :crazy: .....

HD - Recommended shock for most applications, designed to work with the springs that came with your car. These shocks provide improved handling and stability without sacrificing ride comfort.
QTY Part # List Price (per shock) Our Price (per shock) Notes
BE5-B004-H0 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $151.00 $98.15
BE5-B005-H0 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $170.00 $110.50 OUT OF STOCK

Looks like the $89 shocks are gone according the website:confused: :crazy: .....

HD - Recommended shock for most applications, designed to work with the springs that came with your car. These shocks provide improved handling and stability without sacrificing ride comfort.
QTY Part # List Price (per shock) Our Price (per shock) Notes
BE5-B004-H0 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $151.00 $98.15
BE5-B005-H0 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $170.00 $110.50 OUT OF STOCK

It is a sign, even they don't want you to run that crap. :rollingla

It is a sign, even they don't want you to run that crap. :rollingla

No, I think what happened is that the can was opened and the worms are just starting to trickle out......:nono:

It is a sign, even they don't want you to run that crap. :rollingla

Yea...They are selling out quickly.
Bilstein in Poway only had 4 rear's left and like 12 fronts.
Better hurry!
PLEASE revalve them before putting them on your car if you are totally serious about autox performance.
I will be doing a revalve shortly on another set for SZiglers car.
www.fatcatmotorsports.com can also do some cool stuff for you. The guys name is Shaikh(pronounced "Shake"). Call and talk to him and tell him you need to make your RX8 faster than Ullllllloooossseee's and he can likely hook u up even faster than going directly through Bilstein.
Tell him "fastmike" valving and don't let him give you no wussy specs.
FM

FM pointed me to this thread. Kyle's post really hit a lot on the head and FM speaks from experience. We both agree that consistency is worth more than adjustability. I decided several years ago to understand how dampers work and am now developing my own valving (currently using Bilstein bodies). I'd never be here had I just handed my credit card to Penske/Koni. My curiosity got the better of me!

Bilstein does great work and has excellent products. My services are more personalized with options that go beyond what they provide. I know I could have made Fastmike's Miata even faster and am working on other E/S cars right now.

You can take FCM-converted Bilsteins apart yourself if you have the correct tools. I install a needle valve to allow easier recharging. It also allows me to service the damper more quickly (end of year fluid freshening, etc.). I haven't seen dyno curves on the RX8 HD but I'm guessing they're similar to the HDs/Sports for the 99-05 Miata (firm but not crazy stiff like the 94-97 R-pkg). If so, FM is right - they will need a revalve to work well for autocrossing. I've posted dyno runs for many popular models on the Miata.net forum.

To my credit, I've tuned the local C/S 99 Sport of Dave Theodore. He's running rebuilt Hard S Bilsteins using a custom piston (port sizes modified, etc.). Performance-wise, it's closer to a Penske or Ohlins than what Bilstein rolled off their production floor!

The car is absolutely amazing in damp/wet conditions and has vastly improved grip in the dry over the previous OTS Koni Sports. Rick Gould (whom some of you may know) felt the improvement after his very first run. His comment was 'the car is perfect! don't change anything!' This is the same C/S Miata I won this year's Atwater Tour in - my very first win at my fourth-ever Tour. The car was flawless and fast in the wet on Saturday. My driving was sloppy on Sunday but the margin from Saturday was big enough for the win. So yeah, the setup works - wet or dry.

There's also a 300hp Miata in Florida running a full FCM rebuild and in so doing picked up about 0.7s on their standard 20 second test course. :Eyecrazy: I've also tuned numerous street cars to have far more comfort and control than any existing off-the-shelf damper can provide.

I can add external reservoirs for compression adjustment, do a standard-ish revalve like FM is talking about, or a full rebuild with custom pistons/port sizes for even better control and precision. I'm also developing a few schemes to provide additional adjustability. As I said, a bit beyond what Bilstein does.

The RX8 B/S crowd is so hot/competition so tight that any setup advantage will rise to the top. For anyone local to the SF Bay Area, I would really love to work on your HDs to perfect the valving. First one to buy the rebuild will get two free revalves (which is all I'll need). We can sort details from there, but that's my plug.

Mr. Wood, I've got my eye on you ... perhaps during slush? unless someone beats you to it? ;)

Shaikh

EDIT: I realize this post constitutes advertising. I am a sponsoring vendor on Miata.net and would happily become one here if there is a need for my products/services related to the RX-8. Responses to this post will help determine that.

The RX8 B/S crowd is so hot/competition so tight that any setup advantage will rise to the top. For anyone local to the SF Bay Area, I would really love to work on your HDs to perfect the valving. First one to buy the rebuild will get two free revalves (which is all I'll need). We can sort details from there, but that's my plug.

Mr. Wood, I've got my eye on you ... perhaps during slush? unless someone beats you to it? ;)

Shaikh

Hmmm, that's convienent.....Did I mention I live in San Francisco and should have my shocks by next week:eyetwitch

I have used Bilsteins in off road use only so I can attest to the abuse they can take versus other "off road" shocks (Rancho, etc.)

If you haven't read the shock section of the link I put up on page 1, DG goes into much more detail of why he likes the Bilsteins. He says it much better than I can.
Here it is again:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
that's a very interesting link, and an opinionated guy! but at least he backs it up with dyno charts, not just talk.

on this subject, i'd be really interested to see dyno charts of OTS konis vs. OTS bilsteins vs. some of these "secret squirrel" setups that he makes reference to (which i imagine correspond to the "best EVAR" secret sauce recipes alluded to in the posts recently made above this one).

do i think anyone's going to do all this work for me and post 'em up? no, not realistically. :D but if i were to slap something on the car, i'd want hard evidence that they improved things, not just a mishmash of subjective opinions.

The RX8 B/S crowd is so hot/competition so tight that any setup advantage will rise to the top. For anyone local to the SF Bay Area, I would really love to work on your HDs to perfect the valving. First one to buy the rebuild will get two free revalves (which is all I'll need). We can sort details from there, but that's my plug.

Mr. Wood, I've got my eye on you ... perhaps during slush? unless someone beats you to it? ;)

Shaikh


Gosh dang it! Kevin and I were going to have our way with these BS boys with our cheater shocks and now you have to go and wreck it!!!
LOL!
Seriously, ANYBODY THAT DOESN'T JUMP ON THIS IS A MISSING OUT!!!!

Hey wait a second!I am doing some 8 shocks too.
We'll talk later today Shaikh...I have to go set up a course.
I have some idea's on what the 8 needs and would like you to test a theory about the rear suspension that I have.
Getting Mr. Wood on your side is not a bad idea. Jason is a smart pick but probably too stubborn to go for this until MidpackMike starts beating him. and we have Joe Goeke in our region and the car I am working on Shelbi Ziglers.

FM

that's a very interesting link, and an opinionated guy! but at least he backs it up with dyno charts, not just talk.

on this subject, i'd be really interested to see dyno charts of OTS konis vs. OTS bilsteins vs. some of these "secret squirrel" setups that he makes reference to (which i imagine correspond to the "best EVAR" secret sauce recipes alluded to in the posts recently made above this one).

do i think anyone's going to do all this work for me and post 'em up? no, not realistically. :D but if i were to slap something on the car, i'd want hard evidence that they improved things, not just a mishmash of subjective opinions.


What really shocks me :hahano: is far and wide all over the web people are reading his site and taking what he says as gospel. I will agree that he has some great information and seems to come off as a smart guy. However he lacks one thing, the most important thing to me, results. :rolleyes:

I prefer to get my advice from people who names appear with "National Champion" next to them multiple times in the back of the rule book. :icon_tup:

Gosh dang it! Kevin and I were going to have our way with these BS boys with our cheater shocks and now you have to go and wreck it!!!
LOL!
FM

Well you would have to try.... We have already seen with the overdog car you cant beat a slow @ss Miata. :lol2:

As far off the pace as you were in the RX8 you better get some springs, 18X9.5 wheels, 285s and a 3rd rotor. :evil_laug

Fastmike may want to post his dynos for the MiataR or Solstice. If a customer of mine wishes to share theirs (and some have), that's their business. If you buy a revalve and order dyno plots, you can do whatever you wish with them.

If someone brings me an RX8 Koni or Bilstein (Cooper47 may soon provide the latter), I'll post the results for free, as I've done on Miataforum for a variety of products. GeorgeH provided curves for his RX8 Tokicos, IIRC. In the meantime, I suggest doing a search there for 'dyno' under my same username to get plots of many popular brands. The curves Dennis indicated on his website are indeed typical for each manufacturer.

In broad strokes, excess rebound or compression will cause a loss of grip. How much depends upon the surface and also the driving style. In general, it's much more likely a car is running more rebound than necessary since that's what most OTS dampers allow you to adjust. You get a lot of 'feel' which fast drivers have gotten used to but it's not an optimal setup.

There's a lot of misinformation about dampers propagated by marketing departments. It makes it easier to sell products. This feeds into 'Mr. X won on Y, so I need to buy them, too.' No, Mr. X won because he's faster than you are. If you had a better setup than Mr. X, you would have the tools to go faster than him.

I've found out the truth for myself through study, experiment, and working with people who have decades of experience in racing, tuning, and winning. The people not posting (and who never will) know what I know and more. I've have had plenty of discussions about suspension tuning on Miataforum. My friend Jason was excoriated for discussing the flaws of the aged Koni design on a BMW forum and I will not get into a protracted debate on this forum over the same topic. People have differing approaches and there are various ways to skin a cat. However, some are definitely better/faster than others. I plan to prove that with the RX8 as I am doing for the Miata.

I convinced myself the best way to promote my product and philosophy is to do what the big companies do - go out and win on them, whether it's me driving or someone else. I'm in the business of making competition cars faster, street cars more comfortable or creating anything in between.

Attachments: Koni info (rebound values are positive) provided by Lee Grimes, the rest generated by me (compression values positive).

Well you would have to try.... We have already seen with the overdog car you cant beat a slow @ss Miata. :lol2:

As far off the pace as you were in the RX8 you better get some springs, 18X9.5 wheels, 285s and a 3rd rotor. :evil_laug

:rant: :rant: :rant: is all I hear you saying..:P

Drive your car and a car with the Bilsteins once they get revalved back to back on the same tires and then decide. It is a little bit different style of course attack but I'm sure you will pick it right up.

I don't take what DG says as gospel but I do agree with much of what is in the shock section.
Not all of it.. but most of it. That Penske PDF is a good read too.


FM

Why would the Bilstein be a better engineered or designed shock? I've heard that from a number of people who seem to have well respected opinions. Hey, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but I'm curious to hear thoughts.

I pulled this off of a BMW site and thought it explained the "Koni vs. Bilstein" design in fairly simple terms.....

"Technically the main difference is that Bilstein uses a monotube
(single tube) gas shock versus the Koni twin tube (inner and outer
tube) gas shock. In the monotube design, the nitrogen gas
and shock fluid are separated. The gas pressure is higher and the
shock piston is also larger diameter. These features make the shock
more sensitive, more cavitation resistant, and aid cooling."

This doesn't state that one shock is better then the other it just shows there's an obvious difference between the two shock designs. As far as proving which one works best......That still needs to be decided and no matter how good the shock works you still have to drive the car. :beerchug:

That's a good summary of design differences. However, in terms of performance twin-tubes have a big problem due to the double-wall design - they simply displace less fluid over the entire stroke vs. a monotube. *Especially* in compression, which is really critical as you start looking for better chassis control. This makes monotubes more sensitive as the writer states, which means better control and also reduced cavitation. If you spend sufficient time with a well-tuned mono vs. twin tube, you'll understand why hardcore racers prefer monotubes. I certainly went that direction.

Looking forward to talking with you this week, Stuart!

We'll see this weekend. If me and my codriver(s) whoop em again, I think I might be onto something.:rock:
FM

Hey! I think we are onto something!

FM

It's true - where the heck did this Kyle kid come from? :)

Tempted to try this out. I'm really not a big fan of the OTS Konis, so for 600$ it might be worth messing with these Bilsteins, as long as it isn't gonna make my DD too stiff. :)

That's a good summary of design differences. However, in terms of performance twin-tubes have a big problem due to the double-wall design - they simply displace less fluid over the entire stroke vs. a monotube. *Especially* in compression, which is really critical as you start looking for better chassis control. This makes monotubes more sensitive as the writer states, which means better control and also reduced cavitation. If you spend sufficient time with a well-tuned mono vs. twin tube, you'll understand why hardcore racers prefer monotubes. I certainly went that direction.

Looking forward to talking with you this week, Stuart!

unfortunately unless you're making other suspension mods, like hardcore racers do, you can't realize the benefit of a true racing monotube, which is not to be confused with a low buck street monotube like Bilstein HD, Tein, etc., nor can a good Koni double tube be thrown into the same category as the other crap needle valve controller shocks like GAB, Tokico, etc.

it's all relative, and as usual wide sweeping generalizations only muddy the water and cause further misbeliefs on a subject most people don't understand

Not true. You don't need to make other mods to enjoy the benefit of a high-quality damper, which the HD/Sport are. I can tell the difference on an otherwise-stock suspension, with stock springs/sways. I've spent a LOT of time on Koni Sports, tested JIC, Tokico, Tein, KYB, and now several years with custom-valved Bilsteins with many different valving schemes.

The Bilstein HD is made with the same technology that goes into their higher-end racing products. There is no 'street' monotube (implying lower quality) and no comparison to other twin-tube design, esp. what seems to be called the 'leaky Koni' on the RX-8.

BTW, only the Tein RA and Monoflex are monotubes. On most cars I've investigated, the Basic/HA/SS/Flex are twin. Good designs, though, using needle valves for bleed. Koni uses a spool/preload valve for their rebound adjuster, which is incredibly non-linear by design and amounts to cr*p for serious tuning purposes.

It's not relative to those who know.

Check your pm, Shaikh.

The Tokico Illumina (formerly GAB) or D-spec bleed adjuster is very consistent and pretty linear. The Illumina had a much stronger knee in bump/rebound compared to the D-spec, though, making it a better fit for competition purposes. The D-spec is a bit soft on both rebound and compression for autocross use, IMO.

The KYB AGX is not a great damper, at least on the Miata, due to the valving. Too soft in bump, too high in rebound and you can never find a setting that doesn't jack the car down. Not that reliable it seems, too. The Koni Sport is usually a great match on stock springs and can do the job for autocrossing (obviously) but it's certainly not the end-all of dampers, not even twin tubes. Getting them to match is a big question mark, and I've gotten Bilsteins to match within a few percent side-to-side (comparing forces at 10ips). Truly an excellent design.

Biggest front bar you can bolt on...OTS K-yellows....The widest Hoo-Hoo's you can fit on the rim!
ARGH! Autox nirvana.
:banghead:

Biggest front bar you can bolt on...OTS K-yellows....The widest Hoo-Hoo's you can fit on the rim!
ARGH! Autox nirvana.
:banghead:

Good enough for fastest BS time second day at the San Diego Tour...against some very tough, very proven competition, with a mid pack driver ;)

Trust me, you are going to prefer racing on the revalved Bilstein's over the OTS K's.
I wish you were here so you could try my ZOK. It ain't fair. Luckily, Kevin's dampers will be back at the end of the week so we can be on a level playing field again.
Some tricks up Ron's sleeves too for the near future.
It is sickening how easily I am top paxing with the new setup.
The car practically drives itself.
FM

Trust me, you are going to prefer racing on the revalved Bilstein's over the OTS K's.
I wish you were here so you could try my ZOK. It ain't fair. Luckily, Kevin's dampers will be back at the end of the week so we can be on a level playing field again.
Some tricks up Ron's sleeves too for the near future.
It is sickening how easily I am top paxing with the new setup.
The car practically drives itself.
FM

The only way I'm on Bilsteins will be with FatCatMotorsports sponsorship ;)

I need to concentrate more on learning to drive the car and less on playing around with set up...one of the few things I will publicly admit to agreeing with ULLLLLLLLLLLLLOSE on...:)

You won't jump ship if there is good evidence that you can make your car consistently .5 faster than your current setup?:icon_no2:

I also agree with Jason to a point about driving better. :)

That is, I agree that you can drive around a couple of tenths but you start getting one car better than the other in the .5 of a second + range and that is hard to make up by "driving better".
At least it is when you already are at the level you are or at least the level you are when you are "on" and are having a good day.
:D:

Warning: Non RX8 info ahead.
I think it does relate though because I don't think the OTS K dampers are the be all end all for an autox 8.
The near future will tell if I am right or not.
After what happened this last weekend, more 8 drivers are open to some experimentation.

Kevin and I had a deal.
If I could out run him in his car versus me in my car by more than a few tenths on the same course, same day for a couple of events in a row, he was going to convert his car to my specs.

First event was an advantage to me by .709 in 53 seconds and, going off memory, this last event was about .8XX in 38 seconds :Eyecrazy: but Kevin coned his best run which would have been about .6XX advantage to me. Still alot in 38 seconds.

Heck! I was only .3 off of Ron's CSP NC straight time in 38 seconds but this lot does not let Ron's car run free and he was on his second tier tires so I don't use that for comparing.
I would have LOVED to straight time him.:lol2: though. That was probably my one chance that I am ever going to get.
I "do" think I can now run with his CSP car paxwise at most events that we will have. I did NOT think that before I did the revalving.

If Kevin could not get the new valving specs, he was going to go to a different class.
I would do the same if the situations were reversed.
You can only drive around a better car to a point.
Kevin is better at that than I am but too much is too much.
The word is that his shocks are almost done and will be getting shipped back soon. That should make him much happier.

Anyhow, I hope it all works as planned and we see some top BS drivers on the revalved Bilsteins kicking some butt.
I would love to have Bilstein start up a contingency program for us people that like them so much and use them.
There is a slim "possibility" of that in the future and I have my fingers crossed.

FM

Hmmmm.......A package arrived today:)

So is my brand new Koni front replacement. Will see if Shaikh can fit me in for dyno-run next weekend.

Jeez, you guys are getting serious...I better watch out, the smackdown might be coming:uhh:

Jeez, you guys are getting serious...I better watch out, the smackdown might be coming:uhh:

Even the mighty must fall........:yesnod:

Until then, enjoy your time at the top.

Jeez, you guys are getting serious...I better watch out, the smackdown might be coming:uhh:

To make it happen, how about skipping Reno two-day fun and grace us with your teaching at 6/2 SFR autox school =)

To make it happen, how about skipping Reno two-day fun and grace us with your teaching at 6/2 SFR autox school =)

Actually, the two day event the weekend of the school is at Mather AFB in Sacramento. But, I received a specific request to teach at the SFR school, so that's what I'll be doing that weekend. I really wanted to run up at the Shriners event in Sacramento, but it's better to give something back to the region and help out...although, given that I'm not a very experienced teacher or autocrosser, I'm not sure how much help I'll be! :)

Sweet, this is the best $75 I ever spend on if I'm lucky enough to have you as my instructor. There are many other qualified instructors in SFR for sure, though being able to drive the RX-8 at the top level consistently, you are THE man!

Sweet, this is the best $75 I ever spend on if I'm lucky enough to have you as my instructor. There are many other qualified instructors in SFR for sure, though being able to drive the RX-8 at the top level consistently, you are THE man!

Be careful what you wish for..."look ahead" is about the only contribution I can make:lol2:

Thanks for the props, CRX, but I'm far from the man...well, unless you're talking to my wife, of course ;)

Hmmmm.......A package arrived today:)

You going to put 'em on or revalve first?

Once you get it going, let's do some back to backs of our two cars and see what we think. It could be interesting. Of course, the tires you bought from me might make it hard to get an "apples to apples" comparison...those suckers must have 65 runs on them, by now!

Steve, I'm heading to Socal on business for a few days but look forward to dyno'ing your Konis when I get back.. waiting to hear that Stuart has HDs in hand... ;)

You going to put 'em on or revalve first?

Once you get it going, let's do some back to backs of our two cars and see what we think. It could be interesting. Of course, the tires you bought from me might make it hard to get an "apples to apples" comparison...those suckers must have 65 runs on them, by now!

Yeah, I'm sitting here and wondering what I should do.....Bilstein recommended I install them first before considering the revalve. I guess that's the direction I am leaning right now. I think ulitmatley I'll end up with a better shock if I can add some input to the valving preference.....Plus, it's a three day weekend and I do not have anything planned.....:dunno:

We got our package too!
Ours are getting revalved before installation once we confirm stock class legal measurements.
FM

We got our package too!
Ours are getting revalved before installation once we confirm stock class legal measurements.
FM

Yeah, they'll probably need a revalve to be competitive with the Koni's. I've had mine installed now for about one week. I put them in with stock valving because I wasn't sure where to start or what I wanted. My intitial impressions on the street were pretty good. They are firmer then stock but feel like they absorb the bumps much better then the stock shocks. Taking corners on the street are again much more stable and easier to control.

Fast forward to R compounds and and "real" race situations......They're better then then the stock shocks but there were times I wanted more control today at Candlestick park.....Granted, this surface is horrible and is full of big bumps so I'm not sure how these will handle a flatter surface. Still, I was hoping for a little more control over some of the big bumps today. I would say adding some compression is a must......

As for ride height, I can tell you that they will not lower your car:wink2:

Yeah, they'll probably need a revalve to be competitive with the Koni's. I've had mine installed now for about one week. I put them in with stock valving because I wasn't sure where to start or what I wanted. My intitial impressions on the street were pretty good. They are firmer then stock but feel like they absorb the bumps much better then the stock shocks. Taking corners on the street are again much more stable and easier to control.

Fast forward to R compounds and and "real" race situations......They're better then then the stock shocks but there were times I wanted more control today at Candlestick park.....Granted, this surface is horrible and is full of big bumps so I'm not sure how these will handle a flatter surface. Still, I was hoping for a little more control over some of the big bumps today. I would say adding some compression is a must......

As for ride height, I can tell you that they will not lower your car:wink2:

I would agree, the ups and downs of Candlestick definitely gave the shocks a workout! One person described it as "kind of like motocross", meaning you have to plan where you are going to land from the various jumps :uhh:

Until you are on a new set of tires, it will be hard to know exactly what you are working with...the 'stick surface really requires soft tires to get good grip, imho. :)

I'm going to get new tires before I start blaming the shocks for my lack of improvement.....To be honest, I don't feel I'm driving that well right now and still need some time to get comfortable with this car. I spun hard on my second run and need to adjust to having oversteer. My set up seems pretty loose right now. I may end up adding some rear camber and stiffening up the front sway bar to see how that works. Until then, I'll just imagine I'm loosing my mojo......

The car will be nowhere near as loose on fresh tires. Before you change anything, get some tires, IMHO.

I have to concur with Mike about Candlestick being the primo example of fresh R-comp making a big difference. The fast back sections of long sweeper right before 1st slalom and the transition between 1st and 2nd slaloms give fresher tires a clear advantage. Also, the front section with offset/box galore is more forgiving on fresher tires in term of line selection.

I was on M+S street tire in a Miata on Sat's practice course, running in reverse direction, and the difference of grip/velocity/approach was huge.

Good looking kids you got there, maybe they got your mojos =)

I met with Steve and his very patient fiance yesterday ;) I ran the brand-new front RX8 Koni (warrantied by Koni due to leakage issues) and an existing rear on the Roehrig. Results are attached showing full soft, 1 turn, 2 turns, and 2.5 turns which I called full stiff on the graphs.

Rebound: At soft it was very stock-looking (similar to other stock dampers I've run, I don't have OE Tokicos to compare to). Turns one and two made changes that were more proportionate at mid to high piston speeds (above 5ips) but less noticeable below 3ips which is where a lot of autocross action occurs, at least on smooth lots. As most of us know who've used Konis with their preload adjustor, the real damping increases occur in the last 1/2-1 turn from full stiff, which was about 2.75 turns from soft but I only went to 2.5 turns on the dyno. There was more front rebound damping available than rear at all settings.

Compression had a decent rise to it beyond 1 ips, though the car would definitely benefit from more low-speed, as Penske and my revalves are set up. As with the Honda S2000 dampers, there is more front vs. rear bump which I imagine was intended to reduce exit oversteer (those settings promote exit understeer). Good for higher-speed stability, but not for good autocross tuning.

The force vs. displacement curve showed the typical Koni hysteresis (i.e. lack of control) due to their twin-tube design and small volume displaced vs. stroke. It was better than some Konis I've looked at, however, due to the larger diameter body and rod. The lower rear vs. front compression would promote exit understeer as I already mentioned, parallel to the fact that the lower rear vs. front rebound would promote entry understeer. I believe some have complained about these behaviors, at least the exit understeer?

There did seem to be some cross talk between bump and rebound on a few settings and it was difficult to get consistent results with the rear damper (as the light blue and green curves illustrate - they were supposed to be full soft but gave very different high-speed results!).

The rear adjustment, by fully compressing the body then turning it, is a necessary evil given the packaging constraints. I wonder how JIC and other dampers with rod-mounted bleed adjustors, are accessed. Or is it the same situation - change settings only when the unit is out of the car without a spring? Having a bleed adjustor through the rod seems an advantage in this case, which is what I plan for the Bilsteins.

Given these dyno runs and my evaluation, I know how I'd tune a set of Bilsteins. I'd like to autocross Steve's and Stuart's cars (hint!) to get a sense of the balance and then see how I can improve Stuart's if he's ready to Go Faster! :)

Shaikh

I met with Steve and his very patient fiance yesterday ;) I ran the brand-new front RX8 Koni (warrantied by Koni due to leakage issues) and an existing rear on the Roehrig.

It was educational to see shock dyno for the very first time. Thank you Shaikh for making the dyno and results available to the RX8 community, in the pursuit of better performance. Learned a great deal and can't wait see to what you can do with Stuart's Bilstein.


Given these dyno runs and my evaluation, I know how I'd tune a set of Bilsteins. I'd like to autocross Steve's and Stuart's cars (hint!) to get a sense of the balance and then see how I can improve Stuart's if he's ready to Go Faster! :)


Let's make that happen, say event 11 or 13? I hope to have the little incident taken care of before than. See http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1918758 for my rear sway bar broken bracket bolt. Sometimes a torque wrench can do you more harm than good I swear!

And here is a dyno graph for rear D-Specs:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=72385&d=1142393666

Full soft on the Konis is clearly much stiffer than full soft on the D-Specs, which is consistent with some subjective street impressions posted in the handling forum.

Full stiff, the two are very close. Konis have a little more of a knee, but not much more. D-Specs appear to be actually stiffer from about 1.5 ips on up, although we don't know how much more the Konis have in the last 1/4 turn. This is consistent with some subjetive impressions made by myself and a few others who have autocrossed both and found them quite similar.

I have OEM curves (for the rear) somewhere. If I recall correctly, they were somewhere between the Konis at full soft and the D-Specs at full soft.

Let's make that happen, say event 11 or 13? I hope to have the little incident taken care of before than. See http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1918758 for my rear sway bar broken bracket bolt. Sometimes a torque wrench can do you more harm than good I swear!

I'm game for this.....I need to get new tires before we can do any "real" comparisons. We're in the process of trying to buy a house so pulling thousands out of the bank account for my hobby is a tough sell to my wife....:icon_no2:
Still, I have my ways.

I'm game for this.....I need to get new tires before we can do any "real" comparisons. We're in the process of trying to buy a house so pulling thousands out of the bank account for my hobby is a tough sell to my wife....:icon_no2:
Still, I have my ways.

Event 11 is at Marina. The good news is that the entry number is usually low enough to allow a number of fun runs. The bad news is that the surface there is very smooth/sandy concrete that promotes understeer.

Events 12 and 13 are at Oakland...less chance for fun runs, but a good surface to test on.

If you need a "control" driver, let me know ;)

I believe we're shooting for Oakland, I'll be towing over the STU car, not sure if DKNV will drive the Stock one over or not

I'm shooting to be at the Oakland event.....I doubt I'll make Marina.

What ever happened to this thread? I'm interesting in hearing about the results of any further Koni/Bilstein testing. :)

Thanks to those have posted already; lots of great info in this thread.

40th anniversary RX-8 will get Bilstein from what I've read.

What ever happened to this thread? I'm interesting in hearing about the results of any further Koni/Bilstein testing. :)

Thanks to those have posted already; lots of great info in this thread.

I haven't seen Cooper47 aka the Bilsteing guy at the last couple of local events, so we haven't had the opportunity to do any comparisons...too bad, we've had lots of "fun runs" lately, so it would have been easy to drive one car, then the other, on the same course and conditions.

The only thing I can tell you is that the Bilsteins, ots, do raise ride height a fair amount and also don't seem to be stiff enough, just watching the car.

I haven't seen Cooper47 aka the Bilsteing guy at the last couple of local events, so we haven't had the opportunity to do any comparisons...too bad, we've had lots of "fun runs" lately, so it would have been easy to drive one car, then the other, on the same course and conditions.

The only thing I can tell you is that the Bilsteins, ots, do raise ride height a fair amount and also don't seem to be stiff enough, just watching the car.

What can I say, two kids, a wife, a job and trying to buy a house has not left much time for me to autocross.....

As far as the Bisteins are concerned.....I would not say they "raise" the car. Yeah, the folks running KONI's are all sitting 1/2" lower then myself but according to my measurments the car is still sitting at stock ride height.

I do like these shocks even though I do not think they are stiff enough to compete with the KONI's without a revalve. Still, even with revalve I do not think you'll get the static height advantage the KONI's have.

To summarize, I would buy these shocks if you're looking for a good replacement for the stock dampers or if you plan on doing additional suspension modifications or a revalve. If you're running a stock suspension you're probably better off sticking with the KONI's and rebuilding them after they start leaking....At least they have a warranty.:rolleyes:

Reviving an old one here.

I was looking at getting a set of Konis for my car soon but was thinking about a set of revalved Bilstein HD's. I didn't see a clear winner on this thread (and there probably won't be one) since FM and Shaikh haven't comeback with results or info on the revalved shocks.

I was a week away from getting some revalved Bilsteins for my Solstice when it died, which is why I am so interested.

Anyone... info please.

Mike's been slowly working on revalved Bilsteins, but having trouble getting them to be stock legal. It's possible with a bunch of cutting and welding, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.

I didn't see a clear winner on this thread (and there probably won't be one) since FM and Shaikh haven't comeback with results or info on the revalved shocks.


Anyone... info please.

There is a clear winner, and has been for years now... Get the Koni sport and save yourself the trouble. That is unless you need a built in excuse at natls, like you had the wrong shocks. :lol2:

What I will say is that you need to adjust your driving style, if you are to run on OTS Koni. Adding compression to rear is the easy cop out, or deal it with via other means. In this case, ULLLOSE is just exceptional as far LFB/trailbrake go (purely conjecture on my part).

What I will say is that you need to adjust your driving style, if you are to run on OTS Koni. Adding compression to rear is the easy cop out, or deal it with via other means. In this case, ULLLOSE is just exceptional as far LFB/trailbrake go (purely conjecture on my part).

Why would you need to adjust?

^I think CRX may be talking about the car's increased rotation under trail brake, after I convinced him to go full stiff on the back shocks...

I've driven cars with OTS Konis at various settings and, like most other set up variables with the RX8, just don't think it really matters all that much...you just need good tires and minimal driver input errors to go BS quick, imho. Of course, I am known to drive around stuff, so my opinion may be worth exactly what you've paid for it... ;)

Mike's been slowly working on revalved Bilsteins, but having trouble getting them to be stock legal. It's possible with a bunch of cutting and welding, but he hasn't gotten around to it yet.

I take it that the Bilstein HD's are not stock class legal on the 8?? Or are you talking about the Miata-core Solstice shock he's been working on??

If the HD's are legal than Shaikh or Bilstein should be able to revalve them without a problem.

There's a clear winner because no one has run a set of revalved Bilsteins competitively right?

Just lookin for info guys. Where's Shaikh and FM?

Assuming you are willing to have the bilsteins revalved multiple times until you get the proper balance. Seems like a lot of work for very little possible gain.

:yawn:

^I think CRX may be talking about the car's increased rotation under trail brake, after I convinced him to go full stiff on the back shocks...

I've driven cars with OTS Konis at various settings and, like most other set up variables with the RX8, just don't think it really matters all that much...you just need good tires and minimal driver input errors to go BS quick, imho. Of course, I am known to drive around stuff, so my opinion may be worth exactly what you've paid for it... ;)

imho if you have to trail brake the car you did slow down enough in the first place.

imho if you have to trail brake the car you did slow down enough in the first place.

Don't tell that to Matthew...might hurt his feelings :lol2:

He's one trail braking hombre :)

OTS HD Bilstein's do not match stock class legal measurements.

After watching David's car recently, I think he might be onto something with his "new settings".
Watch out...UmightLose!
He is straight timing me and Kevin by 2 seconds!!!!
His changes did exactly what I thought they would do.
Perfect? not yet.
Time to mess with toe and bar.


FM

OK, so we can take trailbrake out of ULLLOSE's playbook =)

My co-driver and I are simple minded folks, so brake in a straight line and no fancy footwork with LFB. We are fighting exit push, besides our own driving deficiency.

OK, so we can take trailbrake out of ULLLOSE's playbook =)

My co-driver and I are simple minded folks, so brake in a straight line and no fancy footwork with LFB. We are fighting exit push, besides our own driving deficiency.

Slow in=Fast out, it is very simple. If you have corner exit understeer you are probably going in to hot. It is a long car and does not like to change directions if you are behind.

OTS HD Bilstein's do not match stock class legal measurements.

After watching David's car recently, I think he might be onto something with his "new settings".
Watch out...UmightLose!
He is straight timing me and Kevin by 2 seconds!!!!
His changes did exactly what I thought they would do.
Perfect? not yet.
Time to mess with toe and bar.


FM

As long as he has you helping him, we have nothing to worry about. :lol:

Watch out...UmightLose!
He is straight timing me and Kevin by 2 seconds!!!!



I know David is a good driver, but do I have to be the first one to call bullshxt, on this one? :lol:

As long as he has you helping him, we have nothing to worry about. :lol:

:spew: :pokeowned

HAHA!
At least most of the cars that I work on win lots of big events.
Maybe not with me driving everytime though.:uhh:

Hmmm, I wonder if I got the CS/BS results from SD confused with our CS/BS results in regards to the 2 second per day thing?:dunno:

I can say that David's 8 looked better on course than it ever has and is getting very close to the Solsti scourge that seems to infect the NWR.
I figure if he can always :spank: us, he can have his way with the current BS.

FM

OTS HD Bilstein's do not match stock class legal measurements.
FM

Hmmm.....that's a shame.

I wonder if the OE Bilsteins on the 40th Anniversary are snap-rings? I may have to call Mazdaspeed and find out.

FM,

I found a pic of the OE Bilsteins for the 40th Anniversary car. Do these look like they'll be crimp tops like the Solstice OE Bilsteins??

Is there a chance they'll be snap-ring tops??

http://www.zcars.com.au/images/mazda-rx8-bilstein-dampers1.jpg

call Koni instead, they can install a new wet kit in them :stickpoke

call Koni instead, they can install a new wet kit in them :stickpoke

I actually have the OTS Koni Sports installed but I always like exploring options (whether they're fast or not :banghead: )

If the 40th Ann shocks are snap-rings Shaikh would be able to revalve them and possibly make them adjustable.

Stay tuned on the Bilstein HD front; something interesting might be coming along for those that need a streetable suspension setup. Won't help the B Stock guys and probably won't be that interesting to the STU people though...

we've got a set of these 40th ones sitting around. the car pretty much came off the dealership we broke the engine in, then replaced it with the koni's....

what do you want us to check for/take pictures of?

Looking closer at the pic I think I've figured it out. They appear to be crimp-tops which sucks. You could confirm this by knocking off the steel dust cap and taking a pic of the top of the shock body.

If it looks like this, it'll be a rear pain to revalve.

http://homepage.mac.com/alandahl/.Pictures/images/BilsteinPartsCrimptop.jpg

:icon_no2: