Shattered Clutch repair - Starter removal
10-29-2011, 09:57 AM
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Shattered Clutch repair - Starter removal
So Wednesday something let go in my clutch system (not my pedal assembly), and everything is pointing to it being one of the internal bearings. I have a new clutch that I purchased from BHR and arrived yesterday, and I am doing the replacement in my driveway. 42F and falling, rain/snow mix on it's way through into tomorrow morning 
Currently, I have everything but the starter off before the step to remove the transmission bellhousing from the engine, but I can't get the starter off. I can get it about 1 inch away from the transmission before it hangs up on something metallic. While wiggling it and shifting it and trying to yank it free, I can hear metallic chunks getting stirred around inside the transmission, and shredded clutch material is sifting through the starter hole, and I can see wads of it farther in.
I've tried shifting the gears around to see if it moves something on the transmission side, I've tried having my wife manipulate the clutch pedal to see if I can get something to move there, but about an hour of work and I'm not making any progress.
The only thing I've thought of that I haven't tried is reconnecting the starter to the battery and juicing it briefly, but I'm hesitant to do that due to unknown side effects. Pre-disassembly, it wasn't turning over the engine anyway, and disconnected from that, I could see some concerns with no-load or with the gears smashing through/into something.
Ideas? Recommendations?
Currently, I have everything but the starter off before the step to remove the transmission bellhousing from the engine, but I can't get the starter off. I can get it about 1 inch away from the transmission before it hangs up on something metallic. While wiggling it and shifting it and trying to yank it free, I can hear metallic chunks getting stirred around inside the transmission, and shredded clutch material is sifting through the starter hole, and I can see wads of it farther in.
I've tried shifting the gears around to see if it moves something on the transmission side, I've tried having my wife manipulate the clutch pedal to see if I can get something to move there, but about an hour of work and I'm not making any progress.
The only thing I've thought of that I haven't tried is reconnecting the starter to the battery and juicing it briefly, but I'm hesitant to do that due to unknown side effects. Pre-disassembly, it wasn't turning over the engine anyway, and disconnected from that, I could see some concerns with no-load or with the gears smashing through/into something.
Ideas? Recommendations?
Last edited by RIWWP; 07-10-2015 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Requested by RIWWP
10-29-2011, 10:11 AM
#2
Just a stab in the dark but if you can slide it off and inch is that enough space to slide something in like a metal coat hanger or a screwdriver and have a feel around, see if you can dislodge something. I changed my clutch a fer weeks back and it slid straight off. Something must have got jammed in the teeth.
Can you get to the flywheel and rotate it manually to try to free it. Only other thing is brute force get something in the gap and try to pry it open, but you really don't want to push too hard and damage the bell housing.
Can you get to the flywheel and rotate it manually to try to free it. Only other thing is brute force get something in the gap and try to pry it open, but you really don't want to push too hard and damage the bell housing.
10-29-2011, 10:19 AM
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I've replaced the starter myself before, and it just slides out, so it's getting hung on something related to the clutch failure.
I can't even find the gap in the starter "nose" where the teeth are exposed. I know it's toward the input shaft direction (inward on the circle of the transmission), but I don't think I've got it out quite far enough yet. I'll see if I can get one of my long thin screwdrivers in there. Thanks.
I agree, I'm not going to just pry it out. It definitely is hanging on something metal, and trying to pry it off is just going to damage the bellhousing and/or starter housing.
I can't even find the gap in the starter "nose" where the teeth are exposed. I know it's toward the input shaft direction (inward on the circle of the transmission), but I don't think I've got it out quite far enough yet. I'll see if I can get one of my long thin screwdrivers in there. Thanks.
I agree, I'm not going to just pry it out. It definitely is hanging on something metal, and trying to pry it off is just going to damage the bellhousing and/or starter housing.
10-29-2011, 10:27 AM
#4
Here is a pic of the starter motor and it is a really small gap for something to fall into and you might struggle to get at the opening.
Maybe if you loosened the bell housing and moved it if there is any play, it might just free up what ever is caught in there or you might be able to see what is causing the problem and come in from the side to free it up.
10-29-2011, 10:28 AM
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My thinnest screwdriver can get wiggled into 2 spots, but neither is moving anything inside the transmission end, and it just restricts the starter movement too much to use a combination to wiggle it free.
Picture might be helpful.
And a video might be even better than that. Sorry for the shaking and close quarters. I don't have much clearance under there.
http://youtu.be/sTuAPKrRVO4
Picture might be helpful.
And a video might be even better than that. Sorry for the shaking and close quarters. I don't have much clearance under there.
http://youtu.be/sTuAPKrRVO4
Last edited by RIWWP; 10-29-2011 at 10:31 AM.
10-29-2011, 10:30 AM
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One of the bellhousing bolts is under the starter flange. I can just barely get a 14mm open ended wrench over it, but even if I turn it free, I'm only going to be able to back it out a little bit, and it's a long bolt.
10-29-2011, 10:39 AM
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Ray gave me an idea, rotating the engine back and forth by hand to wiggle the flywheel back and forth. My wife is getting bundled up to do that while I yank on the starter underneath.
Temp down into the 30s now, hands freezing.
Temp down into the 30s now, hands freezing.
10-29-2011, 10:48 AM
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Alright, that didn't work. The rotation of the engine is limited to about 10-15 degrees of pulley rotation, and it's being stopped at each limit by the same thing that's causing the starter to hang. One end of the engine rotation limit would 'anchor' the starter in place more, the other end would loosen it up the most it can, but you can definitely feel the connection between the two creating the limit on engine rotation.
10-29-2011, 02:55 PM
#11
Any luck on getting it off?
One thing I thought you might be able to do is to dismantle the starter it you could remove the cog mechanism from inside the starter the outer case might just wiggle free. I don't think there is an easy way to dismantle the starter so you may have to destroy it, were talking last resort here.
If you can locate the foreign object can you get your screw driver on it and give it a good hit to dislodge it.
I still think removing/siding the transmission a little bit might let you get in from and angle maybe get a flash light in there and see what is stuck and how to free it.
Sorry to hear about the weather that really sucks!
One thing I thought you might be able to do is to dismantle the starter it you could remove the cog mechanism from inside the starter the outer case might just wiggle free. I don't think there is an easy way to dismantle the starter so you may have to destroy it, were talking last resort here.
If you can locate the foreign object can you get your screw driver on it and give it a good hit to dislodge it.
I still think removing/siding the transmission a little bit might let you get in from and angle maybe get a flash light in there and see what is stuck and how to free it.
Sorry to hear about the weather that really sucks!
10-29-2011, 03:19 PM
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No, no further progress made. I'm pretty much waiting out the weather right now.
My next attempt is going to be removing the rest of the other bolts between the bellhousing and the engine, and then as I rotate the last bolt under the starter flange, rather than removing the bolt, the separation will occur between the engine and bellhousing.
In theory. If whatever is jammed in there is caught on the flywheel in such a way that it just moves the bellhousing to the starter flange and no further, then I think the only option at that point is destructive.
My next attempt is going to be removing the rest of the other bolts between the bellhousing and the engine, and then as I rotate the last bolt under the starter flange, rather than removing the bolt, the separation will occur between the engine and bellhousing.
In theory. If whatever is jammed in there is caught on the flywheel in such a way that it just moves the bellhousing to the starter flange and no further, then I think the only option at that point is destructive.
10-29-2011, 04:30 PM
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I'm pretty sure that it's a piece of whatever disintegrated, and it's fallen into the opening where the starter gear is, and it's sticking out, catching on the flywheel. It's metal, whatever it is. I'd have to hope that it would break/bend before my starter or bellhousing would, and I'm not sure I want to take that chance.
10-29-2011, 04:44 PM
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Done. Next idea? 
I only have about 10-15 degrees of pulley rotation before I hit a mechanical limit on each end.
Moving the crank pulley one direction (think it's clockwise) makes the starter harder to move at all. Regardless of the position it's in, it's like something is clamping it harder and harder. It could be out as far as I can get it, and it just gets "locked" into that position and I can't wiggle/nudge it at all, even hauling on it. If it's back into it's installed position, it locks there as well.
Moving the crank pulley in the opposite direction "loosens" the starter up, and I get full range of wiggle/yanking on it. However, I still can't get it free from that end, and I can still feel the metallic resistance blocking it.
It's a fairly smooth gradient of pressure on the starter between the two extremes, no "Sweet spots" I could find.
With my wife on the crank pulley (via my breaker bar and a 19mm socket), I can clearly feel the flywheel moving the starter around. I'm having a hard time explaining that, but you know how you can feel the resistance or impact bits through the metal handle you are holding for whatever? It's like that. I can feel the teeth hitting something as they turn, I can feel the tightening of whatever against the starter, etc... I'm positive that whatever is anchoring the starter is preventing the motor from rotating any further in either direction.
I only have about 10-15 degrees of pulley rotation before I hit a mechanical limit on each end.
Moving the crank pulley one direction (think it's clockwise) makes the starter harder to move at all. Regardless of the position it's in, it's like something is clamping it harder and harder. It could be out as far as I can get it, and it just gets "locked" into that position and I can't wiggle/nudge it at all, even hauling on it. If it's back into it's installed position, it locks there as well.
Moving the crank pulley in the opposite direction "loosens" the starter up, and I get full range of wiggle/yanking on it. However, I still can't get it free from that end, and I can still feel the metallic resistance blocking it.
It's a fairly smooth gradient of pressure on the starter between the two extremes, no "Sweet spots" I could find.
With my wife on the crank pulley (via my breaker bar and a 19mm socket), I can clearly feel the flywheel moving the starter around. I'm having a hard time explaining that, but you know how you can feel the resistance or impact bits through the metal handle you are holding for whatever? It's like that. I can feel the teeth hitting something as they turn, I can feel the tightening of whatever against the starter, etc... I'm positive that whatever is anchoring the starter is preventing the motor from rotating any further in either direction.
10-29-2011, 04:50 PM
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Hmm. Might work. I'm pondering the best way to get angle and force and where to actually hit it.
See how many ideas I can build up for ~11am tomorrow when the weather clears and hopefully the driveway dries off. Might have to run a portable heater out under the car to dry it all faster
I've thought about turning the car over and shaking the debris to the other end of the bellhousing, but haven't figured out how I would actually do that
See how many ideas I can build up for ~11am tomorrow when the weather clears and hopefully the driveway dries off. Might have to run a portable heater out under the car to dry it all faster
I've thought about turning the car over and shaking the debris to the other end of the bellhousing, but haven't figured out how I would actually do that
10-29-2011, 06:15 PM
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Realistically, if it doesn't come out any other way, pulling the engine to turn the engine/transmission combo over should actually work. No need to turn over the entire car
That's not something I'm prepared to do right now though.
And it's probably cheaper /easier to cut off the starter and replace that as well.
That's not something I'm prepared to do right now though.
And it's probably cheaper /easier to cut off the starter and replace that as well.
Last edited by RIWWP; 10-29-2011 at 06:20 PM.
10-29-2011, 06:53 PM
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I've added "disassemble starter" to the list of things to try before destructive options. In theory, if I can get to the gear/rod inside the starter, I may be able to use the hand rotation of it to help, or to reach that gear enclosure and whatever is stuck in there
Last edited by RIWWP; 10-29-2011 at 06:59 PM.
10-29-2011, 10:17 PM
#22
Option A:
Remove all the bolts and drop the trans, the 130 lb of pressure should break the piece of clutch/PP that is holding the starter in place.
Option B:
Remove the whole upper intake mani to get to the little metal flap unbolt that and get a very long screw driver and start jamming around until it breaks free.
Option C:
Get a large can of gasoline pour it over the vehicle light on fire and collect insurance.
Remove all the bolts and drop the trans, the 130 lb of pressure should break the piece of clutch/PP that is holding the starter in place.
Option B:
Remove the whole upper intake mani to get to the little metal flap unbolt that and get a very long screw driver and start jamming around until it breaks free.
Option C:
Get a large can of gasoline pour it over the vehicle light on fire and collect insurance.
10-30-2011, 08:22 AM
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an inch of snow on the ground and 8 this morning. ugh.
Shady:
I have no idea what you are getting at with Option B? "little metal flap"? You are making a reference to something that I am not aware of. Explain?
Option A is only viable if I can actually unbolt the transmission. If I can get the transmission off with the starter still installed, I will be able to reach into the bellhousing and manually correct it. However, the bolt under the starter flange is going to be the problem there. With the rest of the bolts out, in theory I can back out that one, moving the transmission off of the engine without moving the bolt out of the transmission (does that make sense?) I guess it depends on if the bolt threading is in the transmission and engine or just in the engine. If it's threaded in the transmission to (Which I doubt) then this wouldn't work, because I can only back that bolt out of the transmission the distance to the starter flange. It's also dependant on if whatever is jamming it is so hung up on the flywheel that it links the engine and transmission together and prevents the transmission from coming free. But, if I only have 1 bolt between them, and it's loose, then I have a pivot point to try to see what might be able to change.
Brettus:
I don't think the bellhousing would survive a crowbar
Shady:
I have no idea what you are getting at with Option B? "little metal flap"? You are making a reference to something that I am not aware of. Explain?
Option A is only viable if I can actually unbolt the transmission. If I can get the transmission off with the starter still installed, I will be able to reach into the bellhousing and manually correct it. However, the bolt under the starter flange is going to be the problem there. With the rest of the bolts out, in theory I can back out that one, moving the transmission off of the engine without moving the bolt out of the transmission (does that make sense?) I guess it depends on if the bolt threading is in the transmission and engine or just in the engine. If it's threaded in the transmission to (Which I doubt) then this wouldn't work, because I can only back that bolt out of the transmission the distance to the starter flange. It's also dependant on if whatever is jamming it is so hung up on the flywheel that it links the engine and transmission together and prevents the transmission from coming free. But, if I only have 1 bolt between them, and it's loose, then I have a pivot point to try to see what might be able to change.
Brettus:
I don't think the bellhousing would survive a crowbar