fyrstormer

You're probably not shifting hard enough. The synchronizers are very stiff and won't work properly if you shift them with a light touch. Also, if the car is new, don't expect the gearbox to work smoothly until you've put 10,000 miles on it. Those parts need a chance to wear in.

The RX-8 synchronizers have triple cones and use a carbon-composite friction material, instead of the normal single-cone brass synchronizers. Don't expect them to work the same as other cars. They are designed to shift smoothly when the car is being driven at maximum output, which means they will require firmer treatment even when driving in city traffic. I started getting along with my gearbox much better once I stopped trying to be nice to it.

Ian_D

fyrstormer, thanks.
As I understand it, 1-4 have the triple cones but not 5 & 6.
I'll try the being firm tomorrow.
When I stop trying to be nice to my gearbox 6th doesn't like it.
As well as the 4th-into-6th baulking, if I'm firmer & quicker from 5th into 6th I get a lot of crunching.

fyrstormer

I find it odd that the guy writing this post claims to be a technician but he doesn't know how synchronizers actually work. There are spline teeth on the outer edges of the synchronizer cone(s) that physically block the lockring from touching the side of the gear being selected, until the synchronizer has done its job and the torque caused by synchronizing the input shaft has dissipated. There is no way to force the lockring into position before synchronization is complete -- UNLESS the spline teeth are broken off the synchronizer cone(s), or the cone(s) are damaged such that they can't produce enough friction when they touch the side of the gear being selected. (however, lightly shifting a performance-tuned gearbox will also produce this effect even if nothing is damaged.) So yes, damage is a very valid explanation for synchronizer malfunction, but the damage MUST come first.I LOLed. Just open the clutch and the engine will calm down. No need to shift immediately, especially when you're driving double the speed limit.
I have shifted from 2nd to 6th in my RX-8 quite a few times (though I try to avoid it), since redline in 2nd is fast enough to match speeds with highway traffic, and yes, it does take time to shift from 2nd to 6th. I can tell by the resistance on the shifter that the spline teeth on the synchronizer cones are doing their job, though, because there's no amount of pressure I can put on the shifter to make it try to engage prematurely.

That being said, I do sometimes get grinding going into 6th gear from 4th or 5th while cruising, when the forces generated are insignificant. When this happens, the next chance I get to stop at a stoplight, I will lightly apply pressure on the 6th gear synchro while the clutch is still closed and the engine is idling, to burnish the friction material so it will grab properly the next time I use it. It works every time, and I only have to re-burnish it every couple months.

I think the "deal" with 6th gear is that it uses a high-tech friction material that's designed for heavy use, and it doesn't get that heavy use. Th 6th gear synchro never experiences the "upshifting at redline in 5th gear" condition that would keep it burnished without the driver making a point of doing it on purpose. So, the driver needs to do it on purpose.

I haven't had any problems with this method, and I doubt it will wear out the 6th synchro before the heavily-used 1st/2nd/3rd synchros wear out from normal operation.

jasonrxeight

doesnt matter what you do, skipping is always hard on syncros cuz the amount of rpm it needs to reduce/increase.

ASH8

Yep, agree with Jason and fyrstormer....

I don't care what brand of Gearbox (Transmission) if you are going to crash change, fast change or whatever change at high RPM and Speed you are always tempting issues, as in "a" component prematurely wearing or failing or reduced lifespan....for what they are and what is paid they do an excellent job....they are not technically racing gearboxes....go to Holinger if you want one of those.

And YES, I have continuously said that "wearing in" is critical as is more Oil Changes..
The older these box's get the better they are, and always let them warm up or get hot.

http://www.holinger.com.au/

Ian_D

I'd get a 5-year driving ban if I did that here, assuming that I could find a quiet enough stretch of road............

seanp

Hehe - my 5th/6th synchros went at 9,000 miles - so wasn't even "run in"

seanp

Bruntingthorpe might give you a chance, if you can get "track time" there (2 miles of straight, fine condition runway) :-)

I gave up at 141MPH indicated, 139 measured on GPS - because the front end got pretty light and I didn't have the best of tyres on at the time, and fuel guage had dropped from 1/4 tank to "fumes" in about 4 laps... Must try harder next time.

Anyhow - any more news from the dealers??

Ian_D

Sean, after all the time & hassle I'm now back where I was in November - the 6th gear problem is 'a known problem' and I've booked her in for the gearbox to be taken out and stripped.
I emailed the dealer early Thu morning (3 full working days ago) asking what they are going to do about the 1/2/3 gear issue, asking for information on the service notice (see my post of the 12th), asking why they put me through all the hassle and expense of the last 2 months (I put it more politely) and asking them what they are going to do about the money I paid for the oil change. Needless to say I've not had a response.
If I don't get an answer by Thu lunchtime I'm going to pop in.
I'm writing to Mazda, hopefully tomorrow, and to the managing director of Freestyle unless the service departments come up trumps by Thursday when I pass by lunchtime (2 1/2 working days away).
The 1/2/3 problem isn't getting better. Indeed, this morning I couldn't get her into 2nd when cold even with double declutching.

fyrstormer

There's no accounting for defective parts, of course.

fyrstormer

My 1/2 synchronizers are quite stiff for the first few shifts when the temperature is near or below freezing. I just push harder on the shift lever and it goes into place. Sometimes I get a dull "thud" from the gearbox when I do this, as the input shaft instantly changes speed. I don't really care; if the gearbox can handle full-throttle acceleration in 1st gear, it can handle "hard-shifting" while cruising in a parking lot at 10mph.

I just look at it as: the transmission is designed to work perfectly when hot and under high stress; in any other conditions, its performance will be less than perfect, because that's how engineered systems bloody well work.

That being said, if your clutch isn't fully opening, your synchronizers will NEVER work right. See if the mechanic can put the car on a lift while the engine is running, close the clutch with the shifter in 1st gear to get the wheels spinning, and then press the clutch pedal to the floor and see if the wheels come to a stop. If they don't, or if they take a very long time to, then the clutch isn't opening fully and there is always torque being applied on the input shaft. Synchronizers won't engage until the input shaft has no torque applied to it, regardless of whether that torque comes from rotational inertia or a malfunctioning clutch.

bhammer

I had my car in at about 15K miles and they replaced the 5th/6th syncro. I would get a grinding noise when trying to shift unles the engine rpm came back to about 1000k.

Ian_D

Booked car in 3 1/2 weeks in advance to ensure relevant technician booked to do work straightaway (can you guess what's coming next?).. .......
.....took car in Weds, 3 days ago.....
............ when I had no update I rang them up late this afternoon.......
.......................only to be told that hadn't started work yet and they'd need my R3 for another 2 weeks rather than the week that they'd agreed!

I can't believe it. After all the aggravation that they've given me and promises to reform, they still snub me and waste more of my time.

So I'm running around in a Mazda 2, a glorified shopping trolley, emblazoned with so much advertising my mates call me 'the unpaid mobile sandwich board man'.

I've now written to the Dealer Principal, one of the directors and Mazda (yet again).

ASH8

Ian, while I understand (sort of) your frustration, you do have transport (Mazda 2).

There "could be" a situation where parts were ordered and not all were supplied..
Or the guy who was going to work on your car is ill, or they don't have enough staff because of illness?...which can happen at the last moment.

Unfortunately it sometimes is not a perfect outcome, or one the owner 'believes' should happen.

A dealer can't just get another new transmission (IF available) and throw in your car without authorization from M UK, they have probably been told to crack it open first and then asses the situation. They then may have to order more parts or you may even get a complete new trans (but I doubt that) ??

But the reality is sometimes work is scheduled, if another priority job comes in and staff is short your trans job can be pushed back..

IN the end the reality is warranty work costs a dealer, they roughly get less than half the labour $$'s back when compared to normal service maintenance and make next to nothing out of parts.

Are you a regular customer of theirs?...have you had your car serviced there?...did you buy the car there?...and one expects priority?

YES..there is no excuse for not communicating the truth.....

Ian_D

Ash,

There are indeed 2 sides to a story and I understand why you would think from a dealer's view. I'm a pretty reasonable guy but I do expect a reasonable standard of customer service. I'm sure that you'd be as pissed off as I am if they'd done it to you.

However, here I have been repeatedly plssed about, had an apology only to be plssed about the next time. I waited for 3 weeks to ensure the technician(s) was available, I wrote a letter to hand in when booking in and I briefed the booker-in of what had been agreed in order to avoid as many problems as I could. They have told me several times that they expect the work to take a week.

You're right about the agreed work (take out, inspect, Mazda UK approval, repair) but Mazda have been involved already (I raised the issues with them after the previous aggravation) and the dealer hasn't even started to do any work let alone find what parts they need. The 6th gear synchromesh repair is a service bulletin and Mazda has already discussed it with them after I contacted Mazda.

The dealer may get less from Mazda for both labour and parts, but that is for them to manage my expectations and they have completely failed here. They know that when they sell a car there will be warranty work and it's all part of the deal.

We have a recession where people are looking to cut costs and there is strong competition from non-franchised garages, the one I've been using for my other cars being excellent, so you'd think they'd get their act together.

As for a car, I'd much rather have them do the work agreed in the timescale agreed and not have a loan car. As it happens, it's snowed here and my loan car is stranded as its cheap tyres can't cope with snow that my RX with winter tyres breezed over earlier in the year, so I may have been better without it.

Ian

ASH8

I would like to see a copy of this "Service Bulletin for the S2 P66M Trans, as there is not one", I have all TSB listed here and none for the trans..

https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-technical-trouble-shooting-160/series-ii-tsbs-technical-service-bulletins-212228/

I will check again, unless something has been added in the past few weeks...All factory TSB come out of Japan and are re-titled for each region, but are just basic a MMC Japan copy.
All world markets use the same trans.

ASH8

Nup, sorry...no Series 2 Service Bulletins or TSB's on the 6 Speed Trans, Synchro's or Gears.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

wow,

thats an ugly mess of crap.. how did you find jmetreo? he has a new site i bet you would love it...

he was a troll here years ago...

beers

Ian_D

Ash, I have a copy of service information repair guidance release r079/09 released in October 2009. It's a hard copy and I don't have a scanner at the moment so I can't show you a copy.

ASH8

Found a copy Ian..

seanp

Ash,
Can you tell, from the part nos. WHAT has changed about them to "fix" this Gearbox problem?
I am sure that I read somewhere here-abouts a posting by you that it was a "profile" change, not a "material" change; yet the bulletin says "In order to prevent wear, the material of synchronizer ring for both 5th and 6th gear has been changed."

ASH8

Yep Sean, I was going on what I was told here then...

But I would agree with the Bulletin about a change to the material in the two new identical Synchro's for 5th and 6th gear..

The Mazda Dealer tech who told me this was/is a very switched on and experienced Tech/Mechanic, he had cracked a few early Series 2 Tranny's, and was supplied by Mazda Australia a kit of parts to use, the kit back then in late 2008 was I believe the same rings and not modded ones as they were not Part Numbered.

Just today (1 hour ago) I was down in the city and talking to my local Mazda Parts Manager about this exact issue plus new gossip and all they are replacing is what the TSB says, plus checking Gears and Sleeves for any damage, they have only done 4 boxes....None of the late 2009~ off the production line Series 2 6 speeders have had any problems, they gear change like my 2011 MX-5 which now uses the exact same parts including the beefed up parts which were once S2 exclusive.....now 95% of all the internal parts are identical to S2 and MX-5.

ober

my fifth gear started grinding before i headed off back to school, supposedly the S2 5th and 6th syncros weren't carbon coated so they wear easy that must be the material change. Thanks for finding that service bulletin i hope that will expedite the repair process.

seanp

Thanks Ash :-)

ASH8

Any news Ian?