Ian_D

I've searched and read threads here on gearbox problems that would help me with my gearbox problems, but tantalizingly they seem to half-answer my situation.

I'd appreciate some quick advice as my car is in the workshop now and my local dealer is doing his best to wind me up and waste my time - I need something to help get my blood pressure down to reasonable levels..

Basically:
May 2009 RHD (UK car) R3 16,000 miles, no engine or gearbox mods, I'm not the first owner

For some time the changes between 1st, 2nd & 3rd have been very notchy with a pronounced kick-back through the gear lever as the lever goes home. It's worse when cold to the extent I habitually double declutch (clutch in, select neutral, clutch out, clutch in, select gear, clutch out) as the only way of getting the gears.
Over the past 2,000 miles the synchromesh baulked when block-shifting into 6th (normally from 4th) regardless of engine speed. Over the past few hundred miles it has occasionally baulked when changing from 5th.

Thanks for any help.

Ian
ps, story of dealer is, to cut a long story short:
it was assessed by my local dealer who said it was a known problem with a failed bearing, they would contact Mazda for approval and then take the gearbox out to investigate & repair. I booked her in for several days, when I dropped off the car with a letter confirming history to date the service desk confirmed that they would be taking the gearbox out and repairing/replacing it as necessary, when they rang a few days later they said that they can't confirm the fault and had done nothing. When i picked the car up i complained to the service manager who apologized and admitted they hadn't got permission from Mazda despite what I'd been told, but he did confirm the symptoms after driving her and said that she would have to go to the master technician at another garage in their Mazda chain. I got the service manager to make the bookiing to avoid further communication problems and dropped the car off 3 days ago when I explained the 2 problems and requested they speak to the first service manager first. This morning I got a call to say that the 1-3rd problems were there but were borderline acceptable; when i asked about the 6th gear problem all I got was silence then an "er, what 6th gear problem". Then later today i got another call, this time from the technician saying they wanted me to pay for an exploratory fluid change; when I asked how this would help the 6th gear problem all I got was silence then an "er, what 6th gear problem?". . . . . . . They're calling me back this morning (middle of night US time!).....

ASH8

Hang on...you are in the UK...your Mazda has a 3 YEAR warranty..

United Kingdom
3 Year or 60,000 miles.... 'Bumper to Bumper' Warranty
3 Year or Unlimited Mile....Paint and Surface Corrosion Warranty
12 Year .........................Anti-Perforation (Rust Through) Warranty

Have you transferred your warranty papers??

You should not have to pay for a fluid change in a diagnostic sense (normally you would pay though).

There are just too many contradictions on what is being reported..

G/Box Bearings are not a known issue...don't know why a dealer would say this.

Yes, there have been a few shift issues with early 09's, mainly 6th gear, it IS an overdrive and should never be shifted quickly.

On later models a slight change was done to 6th gear, but that is about all parts changes in this transmission.

I have a 09 and nothing wrong with trans, these like to be fully warm, yes they can be notchy when cold, I have a 2011 MX-5 which has the same internals, and again it is OK.

Unfortunately because you are the second owner, one can't be sure how car was treated.
Skipping or short shifting is not recommended.

Mazda have probably looked at your PCM data and to see how your Engine RPM's are being used or even abused...maybe?.

Normally I would also recommend a fluid change, and then have a look at it...so get that done.

Find out about your rights locally with Consumer Affairs and car warranties, as I see it you still have a few months left.

Contact Mazda UK....

ASH8

BTW...There is a shift lever "set up" adjustment procedure to ensure correct shifting/changing.

The Dealer or Mazda UK should be aware of it.

bse50

That bolt only adjust the 3rd gear, is there another one i'm not aware of? :D

Ian_D

Guys, thanks.

To be clear:
'Warranty' is the first word I use with the dealer.
I don't think i should pay for the oil change, but it's difficult to argue over the phone - I thought it much easier to say "Do it, and I'll argue about it later if necessary" intending to deal with it face-to-face if, in what I think is the unlikely event of there being no swarf/debris/contaminant in the oil, particularly as I spent 20 years as an aircraft/weapons engineer and know all about fluid sampling NDT techniques.
Block (skip) shifting is a recommended technique in the UK, all the dealer's staff have said that it should be fine and some [manual gearbox] modern cars even force block shifting by locking out some gears in appropriate circumstances (eg Ford Mustang often forces shift from 1st to 4th)
Mazda can look at the PCM data all they want. I don't abuse the car and it does the majority of its miles on the motorway so the block 6th gear changes are generally when accelerating to 70 mph in 4th, clutch in, get revs to around 3,500, into 6th slot, clutch out (Screech, grind, Clatter).
Overdrive? I started driving when overdrive was effectively a second gearbox unit that operated when the car was in the main gearbox top. I know the term is now often used to refer to top gear, but the R3 6th is a gear exactly like 5th or 4th (see the diagram in http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13613811/RX8...ght%202009.pdf) and should behave in the same way.
Mazda UK is next on my list should I not get satisfaction from the dealer

ASH8

Yes the adjustment is for 3/4..given the OP description across the gates it is worth looking at...
Also I guess your clutch is OK?

You will almost always have swarf on the magnetic drain plug...but not large pieces.

Please show me where Mazda recommends/suggests you to skip gears??...I cant say I have ever seen that in any manufacturers hand book.

I have never had any "grinding" issues, however I have always change into 6ths with that little more care...as I have with every Mazda, as I said I treat it like an overdrive...check out the ratio's.

Interesting how a well known racer thinks the P66M-D transmission is almost bulletproof apart from synchros....which could possibly even be your issue.

As I see it Mazda either removes your trans, repairs or replaces it.
A dealer should not be arguing over 5 pounds of Trans Fluid.

Ian_D

Now close to losing temper completely.
I rang dealer as they hadn't rung me as promised, said car was ready, said they'd just changed fluid and all was fine, then when i asked about 6th gear they said "er, you've got a problem with 6th gear? there's nothing here on that". He went away to talk to his mates then came back with "car's fine". When i asked what they did over 6th he said "er, car's fine" and when I asked again what they'd done about 6th he said "er, the car's fine" in a troubled voice; when asked again I got the same answer so it looks as if they've yet again ignored what I've said. by then a meeting was going to overrun and I couldn't pick her up tonight and tomorrow I've got my kids 40 miles away so can't pick her up til then. If on Monday morning I drive to the dual carriageway 5 miles away and find I've still got the problem I'll go ballistic.

bse50

Ask them to come with you for a spin.
I am having your same issues but my transmission is an early '09 model with no updates done. It grinds in 5th and 6th gear. 6th only if I jump from 4th to 6th.

In my case I know it's a synchro problem. The shop I bought it from knew that and sold the transmission with the replacement synchros as a "gift". I will tear it down and rebuild it when I have some spare time, in your case going postal and hitting the tech with a 2 by 4 is a good idea given your warranty status.

Ian_D

@Ash. Thanks again for the input. Explaining my comments in more detail, block (skip) shifting is recommended by all driving organizations that I've checked, including the Institure of Advanced Motorists of which I've been a member for over 20 years. You are right, it's not in the driver's handbook/operator's manual, but I think we need to think the other way - it's not forbidden or discouraged in any way, and given modern sensitivities over legal action I would have expected to see a comment if there were any doubts.

ASH8

Look get your, car take it for drive, and just see...

I really don't believe a fluid change will fix your issue, BUT, it may just help..

I am a very strong believer these transmission need more regular oil changes, certainly not the distance Mazda says.

I am not going to sugar coat anything, but I am also a strong believer in letting this tranny warm, get hot even before any hard work on it...if you want to call babying it...then fine.

IMO there is light and day between this Tranny cold and hot.

As we know the more you change the more the Synchro's wear, some owners do lots of engine braking (down changing) some dont...I don't (sometimes I do), I rather wear my brakes out than a transmission..anyday.

And YES, I know "racers" downshift all the time, but last time I checked most of us drive on public roads....blah..blah blah..

I would still go Consumer Affairs and Mazda UK.

Be smart rather than threaten Mazda staff, know your rights first.
And yes, take them for a spin in your car..

Ian_D

Thanks again all.

I doubt that the oil change will help and I can't see how it will help the synchro 6th gear issue.

I don't as a rule downshift to brake as there is relatively little drag on a rotary and I prefer the consistency of my brakes. In any case, I try to drive smoothly and avoid downshifting wherever possible. That said, the R3 is a sports car not a supermarket shuttle and has relatively little torque, so gear changing is to be expected.

If the problem's still there I will complain the same way as I did last time which is to speak to the service manager; I will explain calmly and assertively how my time and effort has been wasted and how angry I am, then I'll offer a test drive together. At the first branch the service manager had already driven her so our test drive wasn't needed. I will then write to Mazda as necessary.

ASH8

OK...

I thought I would put up ALL the changes done to the 2009-2011 Trans...

1.1st- 2nd Clutch Hub, Oct 2010 PRODUCTION..parts interchangeable code AN
2.6th gear Synchro's, April 2009, code A
3.Reverse Gear, May 2010 code AN
4.6th Gear, Sept 2008 code AN
5.1-2 Shift Rod, Nov 2001 code A
6.Shift Lever, April 2008 code AN
7.Shift Lever, July 2008 code A

There are no other changes to the Series 2 Transmission.

So look at the parts that are only ONE Way (A coded) as a replacement part tells me where the issues are.

To me it is 6th Gear Synchro's.

Codes...
AN means, NEW PART AND FORMER PART ARE FULLY INTERCHANGEABLE.
A means, ONE WAY, New parts for Old, but NOT Old for New.

ASH8

...I would be getting that letter together now..

Good luck..

ASH8

Here is something you might find interesting from a Guy who says he works at Honda and he is talking about S2000 transmission issues..a very similar tranny.

http://www.standardshift.com/forum/v...hp?f=6&t=13489

I think that Honda document was in regards to the S2000 which revs to 9000 rpm, so maybe for a car which isn't so extreme it's not a big deal.
Here's another post I found explaining the S2000 problems he has seen:
I am the woodwork and I work for American Honda.
I am writing this to hopefully help S2000 owner/drivers understand the importance of shifting properly to minimize the damage to 2nd gear synchronizer rings. I'm not the Warranty Police but will from time to time quote warranty policy when I read things like "Shifting without the clutch".

My overall objective being in the woodwork is to keep S2000 owners from hurting themselves and hurting their cars. Everytime a transmission or engine gets replaced in an S2000 I get the part. I've seen a lot of damaged transmissions.

Before flaming me please read this and keep an open mind.

You have an engine that revs to 9000 RPM. That means that the transmission mainshaft and clutch disk are also revving to 9000 RPM. When you disengage the clutch (push in the pedal) to shift from first to second the engine and the transmission are disconnected. The engine will slow down from compression when you lift off the throttle. The mainshaft of the transmission is not connected to the engine any more so it is freewheeling in the transmission. Given enough time the mainshaft will slow down but not as fast as the engine. The countershaft is connected to the rear wheels and the speed stays constant during the shift.

When you shift into 2nd gear the synchronizer of the 2nd gear must SLOW DOWN the transmission mainshaft to match the speed that the engine WILL be going when the shift is completed and the clutch is engaged.

The transmission mainshaft and the clutch disk together weigh 19.75 lbs. (not including the pressure plate and flywheel that are connected to the engine) When you shift from 1st to 2nd at 9000 RPM the engine speed drops to 5900. That means that the little brass synchronizer rings have to push on the 2nd gear to slow the mainshaft from 9000RPM to 5900 RPM. It not only has to slow down the mainshaft it has to do it in the time that it takes you to shift. So if you have a tendency to shift fast you may be making the sleeve blow past the synchro rings before it has a chance to do it's job and it will smash into the 2nd gear.

The early '00 cars needed a little change to the sleeve to make the synchros work a little harder. That is what the new parts in the service bulletin are for. Cars after VIN YT006255 already have the new parts. Grinding in a car produced later than 6255 is possible if the synchros have been damaged and now are not able to slow down the mainshaft properly.

Shifting without the clutch, or, shift too quickly and not letting the synchros do their job may permanently damage the gear, sleeve and synchros and make the 2nd gear grind more often.

It makes sense that if shifting at 6000 makes the engine speed drop to 4300 RPM, (1700) into 2nd gear then you should give the 2nd gear synchro twice the time to do the shift from 9000 RPM.

If your car does grind once in a while you may not want the transmission removed, disassembled and a new 2nd gear put in. If it does it quite often, show it to the dealer and have it replaced.

If you hesitate for another 1/2 second while putting constant pressure on the shifter while the 2nd gear synchro does it's job, I'll bet many of your cars would not grind any more. Try it. You might like it.

Added 5-2-03:
Skipping gears:
I have seen many 6th gear sleeves that have been damaged.

The typical story is this: Stop light, 1st gear, engage the clutch, rev to 9,000 RPM, shift quickly to 2nd, rev to 9,000 RPM, same into 3rd, look down and find the car going 80 MPH on a city street and the engine noise is screaming, recognize that any cop is going to write a ticket. Shift to 6th quickly to lower engine noise.

Dragging the mainshaft speed down from 9,000 RPM to 4,000 when going from 3rd to 6th takes time. 6th gear has only a single synchro ring and it doesn't like it. It will grind if you are shifting hard and fast. By shifting hard the synchro ring does not have time to slow down the main-shaft and the sleeve will slip over the synchro and grind the gear. If the sleeve is ground enough in 6th then it will not slide the other way to engage 5th.

So if it is hard to get your car into 5th or 6th it may be because the sleeve is being damaged by skipping gears. Hope this makes sense.

ASH8

Our 6th Gear has Two Synchro's not one, and is still an issue....

Like I have said take a little more care in going into 6th Gear...that half a second longer.

Also agree with his comment here...

DON'T Skip Gears...if you must take more time to select.

ASH8

Apparently Ford is also having a massive issue with 2011-2012 Mustang "Made in China" 6 speed transmissions..

This video is nail biting...

Ian_D

Ash, thanks. Effectively what you are saying is match engine and transmission speeds when changing gear, which is what I do. After 30 years of driving motorbikes, cars, trucks, Heavy Goods Vehicles (particularly old military ones with little synchromesh), armoured cars & tanks, I know how to do this and when I'm not doing it right. Consequently I'm sure that use/abuse of the gearbox isn't an issue in my case.

seanp

Ian D - similar symptoms to what I had (at least with 5th & 6th - both started grinding with every gear change).
I too "block shift" (as recommended by both Advanced Driving organisations I have passed tests with!) with very careful rev-matching, and rarely "hurry" gear changes ("Say hello to neutral" ) but there IS a limit to how long you can safely "coast" with clutch in e.g. shifting into 6th, waiting for the revs to drop.
I too had problems with my dealer not being able to "diagnose" the problem - won't go into it here, but it took 3 months and when eventually *I* took an experienced engineer for a test drive, his first comment on the first gear change into 5th and 6th was "both synchros are shot" - and so, it was booked in, parts ordered and they were replaced.
I understand the replacements are a new material.
Many other R3 owners have also had similar problems, and more with 1,2,3 than 5th & 6th.
I also understand similar issues from many MX5 owners in UK.

You'll find a few threads about this over on www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk :-)

Ian_D

Seanp. Thanks. I've been to the RX8 OC first (I've been a member there for a few years) and you'll find what's on the site ref 6th is from me. I'm here as I drew a blank in the UK.

ASH8

Ian no problems..

Just remember you can not vouch for what the previous owner did to your transmission...so DON'T let Mazda try an bluff you out of anything, it is not your issue what the previous owner did, just make sure your warranty papers have been transferred correctly.

The Series 2 RX-8 transmissions or P66M-D, there is nothing mechanically (drive train) different between an R3 (UK) in USA, Australian, NZ, GT or Luxury model....there are more owners who have not had transmission issues than have.

As I pointed out all the changes or 'updates' done as of 2012 are the 6th Hub Synchro's
and a very early Series II Shift Lever change, and 1-2 Shift Rod, everything else 'updated' in the trans that is the other 3 components can be used either way...that is all the changes in the Transmissions.

The MX-5 uses exactly the same internals now from 2010 as the S2 RX-8, prior to that there were some minor difference to some ratio's, everything else is the same now, same part numbers.

I really can not tell the difference with my 2011 MX-5 and my early S2 RX-8 P66M-D, they both feel exactly the same and I now run the same Trans Oil in both of them, the only difference is my RX-8 has traveled 46,000KMS the MX-5 2,800.

My information does not show a material change to the 6th Synchro's P612-17-26YA done from April 21, 2009, but a slight alteration to the rings teeth profile..It is worth noting that any trans repaired before April 2009, either at a Dealership or at production will not have these updated Synchro's rings...None of the other 1,2,3,4 Synchro's, Gears or Hubs or Sleeves have had any alterations or updates.

Ian, what would I do, demand the updated rings and change the hub-sleeve and 6th Gear ...What also concerns is finding a dealer who can do it or has done these or any transmissions, you need an experienced tech doing this...otherwise it can just turn into a re-work nightmare.

Ideally a complete new trans would be the deal.

seanp

Hi Ian,

Sorry didn't realise it was you and we were only face-to-face last week! I should have taken more time to chat about the gearbox issues!

Anyhow, I hope that your dealer sorts it again very soon - it sounds like you have a "combination" of problems (low gears and high gears) which you know most UK R3 owners(in the club) have experienced at some point; plus your driving style is very similar to mine - for the same reasons (RoadCraft, IAM, RoSPA )!

@ASH8 - if I PM you my VIN code, is it possible for you to check what updates have been applied to my 2009 R3 (and what the actual fix was under Warranty - my dealers are never very forthcoming with details when I inquire!)? Thanks for the info on changes - all very useful to know! It was the dealer who suggested the replaced Synchros were a new material!

jasonrxeight

6th gear on the S2 is very very tall if you go straight from 4th to 6th you need to let the syncro wait a little to do the job especially when the RPM is high.
as for the notchy feel, its what the transmission feels like when cold.

Ian_D

Jason, thanks.

The 1/2/3 changes are much more notchy than other R3s I've driven, hot and cold.

For 6th, I've tried a wide variety of waiting times (clutch in, before trying to move the gear lever into 6th) and speeds of moving the gear lever when I do but with little noticeable difference.
On the odd time that it's baulked from 5th the change has been no different to the others.
My changes are between 40-75 mph, and I've never done a block change near the top of the rev range.
BTW my style is best described as slow and leisurely when changing gears in normal use. I don't often drive her with the acceleration expected of a sports car (and Mazda's marketing) - I'm now in my 50s and no longer feel the need to drive like I did in my 20s.

This is my 3rd RX8. Previously I had 2 6-speed (UK-Spec) 231s that I have driven in the same way for some 50,000 miles without any problems changing from 4th to 6th. Additionally, I've driven the same way without problems for some 50,000 miles in other cars with 6th gears (my own GM & VW cars and a wide variety of hire cars).

I did look at a comparison of the gear ratios where I found that 3 to 5 is a greater change than 4 to 6 ie speed change of input/lay shaft is greater in 3 to 5 where I don't have problems. 1, 2, 3 & 4 have a different synchromesh design than 5 & 6 so I think this is the only valid comparison.

BlueR3

After browsing through this I hope I don't repeat too much. I have an 09 R3, I am the second owner. I bought it with just 2400mi on it. After about a week of owning the car I noticed pretty much the same issues you are having....hard to shift from 1st to 2nd and shifts into 6th always resulted in a loud and painfully shrieking grind. I immediately brought my car to the dealer. They gave me a rental and a week later took delivery of my R3. They said the main issue was a manufacturing defect in the synchros and as an added measure rebuilt most of the transmission. Car runs great now, just a tiny notch when cold from 1 to 2 that disappears in about 1/3 mile and the rest of the gearbox is slick as can be.

Ian_D

Some success at last.


After mucking me about left, right and centre, the dealer now says
"I can confirm that there is a service information repair guidance release r079/09 which was released in October 2009 and is relating to gear noise when shifting into 5 th or 6th gear would be valid on your chassis number "
Was this what the first branch was using when they said that it was a known fault and they would book it in for investigation?

Anyway, now booked in for strip & investigation.

Now for the problems with the first few gears.....