C Del

Hello out there. I believe this is actually my first thread, so be nice.

I have a 2010 R3 which I purchased used in March with 30,000 miles on the clock. It clearly was not loved well by its previous owner, as the state of the interior and some scratches and dings on the bodywork lead me to believe the car was kept outside for much of its life (also when I went to change the oil, I noticed the filter was non-OEM ). Being a fool, I bought the car anyway, because I wasn't sure how long it would be until another ABM R3 was up for sale in the area. Shortly after receiving the car, the MIL lit up with DTC P2005 (APV Stuck Open, Position Sensor No. 2).

Now, I didn't consider this to be a huge problem at the time, because the MIL would go out from time to time, leading me to believe that the valve at least wasn't completely seized. I also suspected that the issue was the sensor, given the relatively low mileage on the car and because it seemed that the valves are mechanically linked, implying that, if one valve is stuck, they both should be (it occurs to me now that this isn't necessarily the case). Anyhow, I procrastinated on fixing the problem, so I'm now at 38,000 miles and just replaced the No. 2 APV position sensor. As you can probably infer given that I'm posting here, the code is still present.

My questions are thus: Would you expect this problem be covered under the factory drivetrain warranty? Would I be a fool for attempting to fix it myself? And, the question I'm most interested in: Does the fact that the APV was stuck after only 30,000 miles indicate a more serious problem with the engine, like a sealing issue?

Also, I do not have service records for the vehicle during the course of my ownership as I have been servicing it myself. Any chance the dealer would give me crap about this re the warranty? I don't have receipts for oil or anything, as I use 5 gallon jugs of RP HPS 5W30 to share between the 8 and the Camaro. On that note, should I just lie to them if they ask me what oil I used? I've read the TSB on synthetics, but I don't necessarily believe it and I like RP.

Thanks in advance for any advice or wisdom you can offer.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

With regards to the warranty - why not just ask ?

The fact that the APV is stuck is not an indicator to anything sinister going on . Its just a mechanical device that can fail like anything else .

ASH8

DTC P2005 APV stuck open (No.2)

DETECTION CONDITION
The PCM monitors the input voltage from the APV position sensor No.2 when the APV is closed. If the input voltage is more than 1.0 V, the PCM determines that the APV is stuck open.

Diagnostic support note
This is a continuous monitor (CCM).

The MIL illuminates if the PCM detects the above malfunction condition in two consecutive drive cycles or in one drive cycle while the DTC for the same malfunction has been stored in the PCM.

PENDING CODE is available if the PCM detects the above malfunction condition during the first drive cycle.

FREEZE FRAME DATA (Mode 2/Mode 12) is available.

The DTC is stored in the PCM memory.

POSSIBLE CAUSE
APV control malfunction

APV motor malfunction

APV position sensor No.2 connector or terminals malfunction

APV position sensor No.2 malfunction

PCM connector or terminals malfunction

Open circuit in wiring harness between APV position sensor No.2 terminal C and PCM terminal 2AR

Open circuit in wiring harness between APV position sensor No.2 terminal A and PCM terminal 2AF

Open circuit in wiring harness between APV position sensor No.2 terminal B and PCM terminal 2N

PCM malfunction

************************************************** *****************

It could be as simple as a connector wiring loom to PCM, or APV (however there are only 2 large harness Plug Lock Connectors into PCM (ECU)), which is normally not a problem, unless car had a right front collision?

Just a question, did you clear code after your repair?, might be worth a try.
The best way for S2's is to disconnect Negative battery terminal and stomp on brakes ONLY ONCE within 1 minute....reconnect, Steering and Window initialization will need to be done.

C Del

I had the battery (negative terminal) disconnected for the length of the repair, so the code was cleared and returned normally. It didn't appear, even as a pending code, on the first drive cycle, but appeared pretty much every cycle after that. I did notice the express up/down didn't work on the windows for the first drive cycle. I was not aware of such initialization procedures - I assume this is a self-learning thing and not something that should be initiated manually?

Before replacing the sensor, I did check the resistance values for the sensor from the PCM wiring harness side. They were in spec (non-zero and not open circuit), but I replaced the sensor anyway, kind of hoping against my better judgement that the valve wasn't really stuck.

I'm taking it to a local dealer tonight to see if they'll fix it under warranty. If so, It'll be their problem to sort out, otherwise I'll probably dive in, take the intake manifold off, and clean or replace the valves. I'm not expecting that would be the most fun experience, but paying to have it done would be even less so.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Were you aware that the APVs do a self check everytime the engine is shut off ? First thing I would do is have a listen to see if the APV DC motor is making any noise on shutdown .

If not I would be checking if it was getting power to the connector on shut down . If it was getting power but DC motor was not making a noise - I would remove the motor and test that .
If motor operated off the LIM but not when back on , I would be checking for a stuck valve and see if there were any way to manually operate it .
My point is there are a few things to check before yanking the engine out and pulling off the LIM.

logalinipoo

While you have the motor off try to move the gear by hand to see if they are stuck.

ASH8

There is no real effective way to 'clean' the two APV's, you have to remove engine to get Intake Manifold off first...(engine out), and no this does not mean you have serious internal mechanical issues because you have APV DTC.

North American S2's has a specific APV motor/actuator..N3R4-13-B70A ($120)
Or any of the two AP Valve Sensors (which only North America uses)..N3R4-18-221A ($82 each), pity you guys have these APV Sensors as they appear
to be a bit sensitive.

'Initialization' is for Power Steering (turn Steering Wheel all the way to left and right) and Power Windows (USA) after any battery disconnect (Flashing TC Skid Light/DSC)...If you have never done this then are you certain you disconnected battery.

C Del

I did see the flashing DSC light and noticed the window express up/down wasn't working, but I wasn't terribly concerned because these did not persist after the vehicle was turned off and back on again. I have not noticed any negative effects of not having performed the initialization procedure, but I will keep this in mind the next time the PCM is reset.

Thanks for the recommendations regarding the APV motor. I was somewhat aware of the APV motor self-check, but I had thought it would do that when the ignition is turned from the OFF to the ON position. Does it do the self-check then as well, or only when the engine is shut off? I had noticed a sound which I suspected to be the APV motor in operation when turning the ignition on, but was unsure. If it is necessary (still hoping the dealer will fix it under warranty), I will remove the APV motor first and check that. What kind of confuses me is that the No.1 sensor isn't reporting a problem, which is why I originally thought the No.2 sensor was bad and now suspect the No.2 valve is stuck.

Has anyone seen or have a diagram of how the APVs are actuated internal to the intake manifold? I would be curious to know whether the valves are physically linked by some sort of chain drive or pivot mechanism which would mechanically tie them together, or if some sort of spring return is being used. If the motor is only used to open the valves, and springs used to close them, it seems possible for one valve to become stuck in the open position without affecting the operation of the other. If they are linked, however, the No.1 sensor is probably not doing its job.

Regarding the APV sensors in North American vehicles: I'm actually kind of glad to have the sensor there, if the APV is actually stuck. One or both APVs being stuck would be pretty harmful to performance and efficiency, and it's handy having a sensor to tell me where the problem is (assuming there is a problem). I'm currently seeing around 15.8 MPG with a lot of highway driving, but I have little basis for comparison with this car to judge how poor that is. Of course, if the sensors are just giving garbage data, this point is completely moot, as they would have sent me on a wild goose chase.

Also, I'm aware that getting the intake manifold out is a biznitch, but is it always necessary to drop the motor/transmission/crossmember as the service manual prescribes? Information in other threads seems to indicate that disconnecting the motor mounts may give the drivetrain adequate mobility such that the LIM can be maneuvered out. I admit that I do not yet understand the structure and mounting of the drivetrain well enough to independently determine whether that is realistic.

ASH8

AP Sensors are there for reporting DTC, you know IF the APV's are not turning or working (by engine performance....)

What you could be hearing at engine turn off is EMOP system, provided the following conditions are met..

Quote.
Ignition switch off function
* Engine startability at cold temperatures is improved by discharging engine oil while the ignition is switched off.
*If the engine is started with the coolant temperature lower than 20C {68F} and the ignition is switched off
with the coolant temperature lower than 60C {140F}, the PCM calculates the necessary oil amount based on
the coolant temperature. The PCM controls the metering oil pump driver until the engine rotation is completely
stopped.

One thing at a time, but to remove LIM and APV's you have to remove engine as APV's are 6 inches long and they can't be slid out with LIM unless engine is out.

ASH8

Here is Jon's excellent Vid on a 6 port Intake, even though this is of a Series 1 LIM, without the two APV Sensors used on NA S2's, the design is the same as is the operation...see the long AP Valve tubes..

ASH8

The two Series II AP Sensors are fixed where the red arrows are shown (externally), the purpose is to report the position of each turning APV, I would be more inclined to think you have a faulty Sensor (#2), and or wiring connection.

C Del

Very interesting. It doesn't look like it's mechanically possible for one valve to be stuck without affecting the other, so I would think at least one of the sensors is malfunctioning or not connected properly. I did verify the #2 sensor resistance values from the PCM wiring harness, so I know the sensor was connected at the time, but it could be that a connector is loose and the circuit is only breaking intermittently. I will do a more thorough inspection of the electrical connections and wiring if the dealer doesn't fix the issue.

C Del

So I just got a voicemail from the dealer saying that their techs think the issue is that some integral part of the LIM needs to be replaced (therefor the entire LIM needs to be replaced), which will cost $4,286.00 in parts and labor, excluding tax. LOL. I'm currently playing phone tag with the service rep to see if it will be covered under the powertrain warranty. I have no intention of letting this cost me that much, and I'm a bit skeptical of their analysis.

C Del

Another voicemail from the dealer: The Mazda warranty people say that they will cover the parts and labor if something is physically broken in the LIM requiring that it be replaced, but that they will not cover anything if the issue is carbon buildup causing the valve to stick, for which the dealer would pull the LIM and clean the APVs. The dealer estimates $1,400 in labor to clean the APVs. Essentially they're now asking me if I want to shoot craps to determine whether I'll pay $1,400 or nothing. I did buy an extended warranty on the car when I bought it, and I'm currently trying to get some info on that contract to see whether that will cover it.

As a note, sorry if I'm spam-bumping this thread, but I figure this information will be useful when someone else has this issue in the future.

Update: Before posting this I called the dealer and extended warranty claims dept. Both of them indicate that no claims will be considered until the LIM is off and the problem is known absolutely. The extended warranty people won't tell me for sure if cleaning of the APVs would be covered without the diagnosis, but the likelihood of coverage seemed very poor, and the Mazda powertrain warranty absolutely will not cover the cleaning.

After checking the APV motor, I intend to do a water decarb according to RIWWP's thread before pulling the LIM, as I am disinclined to pay the dealer to do this, and it seems that I should at least attempt everything possible before tearing into it. Is there any precedent or anecdotal evidence that this could or would help, or am I being a fool?

ASH8

Look I was going to suggest this....do you pre-mix at all? (2 stroke oil in gas).

It is the easiest and possibly quickest solution...a long shot...a maybe.

It is worth a try, put in a large dose (8-10 ozs) and drive car for a full tank (use it up) and drive engine all over rev range.

You might find that some blow-back lubrication (pre-mix) ''may un-stick'' #2 APV....if it is stuck.

When related to the actual APV's the only parts which can be replaced (purchased) apart from APV Motor are the 2 Valves (tubes, hard alloy) and the 2 mini Bolts which connects tubes to the moving mechanism, that is it...anything else only comes with a complete LIM assembly in and they are very expensive new for Series II ($2000 your best price).

Actual APV's have not been a problem (reliability wise), as there is not that much to them, the biggest issue is sliding them out with LIM, most of the time noobs break them off as they do not realize how long they are.

And No you are not being a fool, definitely try the decarb if you already pre-mix....good luck.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

This is a solid mechanical device . If you have a sensor on both sides and one side is showing up as faulty .... Then it is either broken somewhere , or the sensor is at fault .
You can't have one side working and the other not because both sides are solidly linked to the motor ( unless one side is broken).

So trying to "unstick" it is pointless.

ASH8

Possibly one (#2) APV getting stuck at the end of its cycle, there is some minor movement in connecting rod (also in the banana looking hinges on AP Valve) causing a DTC...?
I don't know how sensitive these Sensors are, do you?..

Only Series II (USA) RX-8's use them.

In the end it is worth considering a 'lubrication' process without removal of LIM first, and or renewing Sensor #2 first.

I thought I showed where USA S2 APV ""Crankshaft Position"" Sensors are located..

Who knows the very small mini throw away (single use only) APV Bolt (13-B65 # N3H6-13-B65) which connect AP Valve to Slider to APV Motor could have come loose and fallen off?...never heard of it before.

This is the best I can do right now.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Fair enough . But like you said .... "it's a long shot" .

C Del

That is exactly what I thought, and why I replaced the No.2 sensor first. Interestingly, I forgot to connect up a vac hose after replacing the sensor, so on the first drive cycle the SSV and APV would not open, I presume due to the vacuum leak. When this happened, a DTC for the SSV failing to open was thrown, as well as P2007, APV Stuck Closed, Position Sensor No.2. While it seems unlikely to me that the No.1 position sensor would have failed in precisely the right way to go unnoticed by the PCM, I'm beginning to suspect that the No.1 sensor either is being ignored or is failing to report a problem.

I do not premix yet, though I had planned on starting. I will try that as well.

ASH8

#1 is P2004...constantly monitored and PCM stored (like P2005) until physically cleared (wont drive cycle out).

Sorry I misread, I did not realize that you have already renewed #2 Sensor originally...doh!
Just to ask, you did renew the correct #2 Sensor and not #1?

If so, I don't think you have any other choice but to remove LIM.

My guess it the tiny weeny little APV Bold which fixes APV arm to APV Motor slider mechanism is missing or AP Valve pivot arm is broken somehow.?

C Del

Update: After decarbing with a gallon of distilled water and a tank of running the car fairly hard with premix, the problem persists. I will still take the APV motor off and check it, but it looks like I'm going to be pulling the LIM.

ASH8

This is Mazda's 'official' procedure to remove LIM...

• The engine must be removed to remove the intake manifold.

1. Complete the “BEFORE SERVICE PRECAUTION”...Disconnect battery, secure vehicle safely.

2. Remove the following parts:

a. Front wheel and tires.

b. Engine cover.

c. Front suspension tower bar.

d. Battery cover, battery, battery box and battery tray.

e. Air cleaner, intake-air duct and air cleaner insulator.

f. PCM.

g. AIR pump.

3. Drain the engine coolant.

4. Disconnect the brake vacuum hose.

5. Disconnect the quick release connector going to the charcoal canister from the engine room side.

6. Disconnect the fuel hose from the fuel distributor (housing side).

7. Remove the ignition coil.

8. Remove the A/C belt.

9. Remove the A/C compressor with the pipes connected and secure the A/C compressor using wire or rope so that it is out of the way.

10. Disconnect the engine wiring harness from the main fuse block side.

11. Remove the aerodynamic under cover.

12. Remove the under cover.

13. Disconnect front ABS wheel speed sensor connector.

14. Disconnect the radiator hose, the heater hose and coolant reserve tank hose.

15. Disconnect the selector link. (AutoTrans)*

16. Remove the clutch release cylinder with the pipes connected and secure the clutch release cylinder using wire or rope so that it is out of the way. (MT)*

17. Remove the shift lever component. (MT)*

18. Remove the engine, transmission, and crossmember component.*

19. Remove the extension manifold (upper and lower).

20. Remove the AIR control valve.

21. Install in the reverse order of removal.

* This is when removing engine and transmission, downward and under car, most here remove engine out hood/bonnet upward.

Himmy

C Del I just bought a 09 R3 with 30k miles from Car Max. Two days after buying it I had this same issue. Mazda fixed it for free under the emissions warranty

The work was done at Sam Galloway Mazda in FT Myers FL. Hope this helps you out

C Del

Now that's interesting. Did they just clean the valves or was there a defective part? Was it under the 8-year emissions warranty? I believe there's a more expansive emissions warranty for the first 30k/36 months (maybe that falls under bumper-to-bumper). My understanding was that only the cat was warrantied for 8 years.

Himmy

Was told it was under Emissions warranty . I was told this from carmax who took the car to Mazda. This is word for word off my invoice.

Check engine light system check
codes p2005 p2004
scanned for codes. found codes 92004 (intake manifold runner control stuck open bank 1) and P2005 (IMRC Stuck open bank 2) Tested Voltage at pins 2an and 2af at the PCM. Contacted Tech line and was advised that carbon build up causing intake runner controls not returning to closed position. Performed engine decarbon procedure. Cleared codes and test drove vehicle. Concern corrected.


oh also my car is a 09 so its out of the bumper to bumper coverage