3rd transmission on the way? To keep or shed this lemon?
 

Hey guys, I have been browsing the forum since I bought a new 2009 rx-8 in August of '09, but obviously this is my first post. I am hoping to get some opinions on my transmission issues because I love the rx-8 but these repairs are getting ridiculous.

The first problem with the transmission arose at about 6000 miles. When shifting into 5th gear, it would grind pretty bad about the half the time. When I took my car in, they tore the transmission down and decided to replace some synchros and a few other things. They put it back together, but before placing it in the car, decided to order more parts as it was still not shifting right. After about 3 weeks from the initial day in the shop, I was able to pick up my car.

When I got in my car to leave the shop, I had to struggle for about 10 seconds to get into 1st gear. Once moving, I found that from 1st-4th gear, at least two of the gears would be nearly impossible to engage at a given time. I returned the car and began another waiting game. They tore it down for the third time and said nothing appeared wrong. Mazda authorized a remanufactured transmission be installed though since the problem could not be found. I was under the impression it was a brand new transmission though, stupid me. Anyways, Once the car was returned with the new transmission, I noticed immediately that shifting into 2nd gear at any speed above 20 mph would produce a very strong shudder throughout the car. :wallbash:

Despite the shudder, I drove the car for a few months since I could baby 2nd gear and I couldnt stand the thought of taking it back to the shop immediately after being there for over a month.

Now the car has about 10,000 miles and is at the shop getting the 2nd transmission torn down for investigation. Worst off, the dealer mentioned that he is fighting to make sure it is covered under warranty and not blamed on abuse. That got me real angry, I have never raced, tracked, autocrossed my car or anything. I occasionally hit 9000k but my shifts are smooth and I don't abuse it in any way!

So, based on what I have read about the PA lemon law, I have met the requirements. I just need to decide whether to contact a lawyer and initiate the process. I know rx-8s are not known for transmission problems so I am very suspicious of my car and the problems it has and may continue to have!

If you made it this far, thanks for reading, please share any opinions or suggestions. Even flame me for driving 3500 miles with a bum 2nd gear, I can handle it.

My first reaction is that the issue isn't the transmission, because all of this certainly should have addressed it by now. I.e., They aren't addressing the problems with the transmission repairs and replacements because it isn't at that point.

Have they looked at the clutch, flywheel, pedal assembly at all (including engagement points, fluid lines, springs and bearings, etc...)? Or the shifter itself?

Yeah, I know the reaction is that it shouldn't be there if it is an issue with specific gears, but either the mechanics at the dealer aren't good enough to see the problem or the problem isn't with the transmission. Those are the only 2 options.

Sounds like Clutch and Motor mounts issue not transmission.

I started to get a grind going from 4th to 5th above 70mph at 2500 miles on my R3. Told the dealer they said they couldn't get it to happen (at that time I didn't know it was above 70mph when it would do it). Around 6k miles it was grinding with no problems: 4th to 5th..6th to 5th. They replaced 5th and 6ths syncro's, gears and shift forks I believe. The tech said that they were revised part numbers. So far no grinds, 5th and 6th are a lot smother engaging. They are not as notchy as 1-4, also 4th pops out sometimes. Im going to bring that up to them when I'm there again about the wear on the Recaro's.

...did anyone use your 8 as a deep sea submersible during boat stops from Japan?

These many issues brand new is really rare.

Get your clutch pedal welded.

Agree, and frankly I think many of these issues are Owner/Driver related.
Ie..
How you use your Clutch, Gearbox and at what RPM and at what Temp.

I have driven the shit out of my transmission.....

I have 30+ hard track days.....and the thing is smoother than the day I bought it...

I have 2 spares.....and I think that is why the first one is still stellar :)

I also think that user error is a big part of this issue....

That and a clutch pedal that moves around like a piece of wet spaghetti ;)

The driveline "shudder" and gear-grinding descriptions are symptoms of a clutch that is not fully disengaging. When the clutch does not fully disengage, the engine torque loads the synchros and they start to grind. The driveline shuddering (or sometimes a "thud" sound) during shifting is a milder form of this same problem.

The reason for the incomplete clutch disengagement is because the clutch pedal spot welds flex and disallow the full stroke of the clutch hydraulic actuating system.

The clutch pedals on all RX-8s are the same and they are a known failure point, which is why we at BHR strongly encourage EVERYONE to either have their pedals reinforcement-welded or bracketed (both, if you can afford it).

To perform this welding will eliminate the transmission problems you are having and, when this solves your problem, you can tell Mazda BHR says "You are welcome" as we discovered and have been on top of this issue for about 2 years (maybe longer, I can't remember).

Had Mazda listened to us about the RX-8 they would have saved a SHITLOAD of money for themselves by not having to replace transmissions (and cat-pipes, too) all day long.

My transmission went after about 11000miles and 4 track days because of this flex, the new one has got 9000miles and double the track days and is doing fine.
Keep in mind that a clutch that does not fully disengage won't last very long. Mine lasted about the life of the transmission but was more than cooked. It wasn't worth keeping it on the car.
How Charles saved the day at the time is another story :beer05:

Do we know for sure that the Series II have the same weakness with the clutch pedal? And if so, what are the details for the "fix"?

Edit: I saw the RR bracket. Will this fit on the 09s? Link:
http://raceroots.com/index.php/produ...cessories.html

Right Hand Drive Clutch Bracket is a different bracket (manufactured same principal).
The weird thing is there has not been the epidemic numbers of bracket failures, I know of one, basically worn out I think.
Which perhaps, perhaps has more to do with vehicle numbers, but then again, have not heard of the issue in UK.
MA have not seen any pedal brackages.....yet?

AU and UK numbers of Series II RX-8's are so low no real or any pattern of issues can be seen.

However, I know in the UK the NC MX-5 6 speed has had a few owners with the 5th 6th gear "grind" at very low mileage. Starting in 2005-2006 to 2010.
I still put this one down more to driver use.

Bulkhead/Firewall Panel FLEX (at Clutch Master-cylinder), this panel has been factory changed 4 times, original, August 20th 2004 and August 8th 2007 and Series II RX-8.

It must be all that torque ......

Mine failed - in exact same way that the LHD models have . Mind you I had a HD clutch on there for some time so that would have made quite a difference to the force applied to the bkt.

my original S1 bracket is still fine despite 5 years of competition use with the OE clutch

I can't see it failing in that short of mileage/use

the mazda dealer here replaced my whole gearbox under warranty, im lucky

Yep, you are the one I was thinking off...could not recall the exact detail.

Thank you for the suggestions so far guys. Unfortunately, the dealer has not been receptive to any suggestions and insists it is only a problem with the multiple transmissions. The 3rd is on order and should be in by Friday.

As for the drivers use causing any problems, I can assure that is not the case. This is my 5th stick shift car and have never had any problems with the other car's gearboxes. Also, the day the second transmission was installed, the shuddering was apparent. Upon inspection, the dealer noticed the shudder immediately. Also, the car was never raced or shifted hard, the clutch was never ridden during driving, or anything that may cause unusual wear or failure. These problems fall entirely on the car and its faulty parts.

Even after the 3rd transmission, I still need to decide if I want to undergo the hassle of getting a Mazda buyback under the lemon law. With days in the shop approaching 45 after this repair and only getting a Remanufactured transmission replacement, I am getting annoyed with these issues. Decisions decisions

The fact that is re-occuring problems across multiple transmissions means it isn't the transmission. I'd contact MNAO if this transmission doesn't fix it... get the dealer to examine other parts suggested here.

check clutch pressure plate, maybe its broken

Tend to agree...

Did the Dealer Report on the 'faces' of either your Fly Wheel or Pressure Plate?, and or the condition/wear of your Clutch Plate??

Inspection of the Flywheel and or PP face can tell many a story on "How" you drive your car and "how" it's gearbox may be treated...

And I am not suggesting anything, BUT, many Techs (Mechanics) don't even take the Clutch Assembly off to inspect the parts., they just remove the box, fix it and put it back when all the time the Flywheel and Pressure plate face can be lit up like a Rainbow from getting too hot from clutch plate slipping at high RPM, Driver Abuse, Riding the Clutch Pedal, etc, etc...again not suggesting anything about your driving style or use of your car.

Generally though there are tell tail signs like excessive Clutch Plate dust inside bell housing which should send out alarm bells to the Tech.

I really don't think the clutch bracket or slave cylinder would be an issue on such a low mileage S2??

The DEALER should be investigang all these things ...

for some reason the SII has some issues with the trans and synchrons. I am having a same issue with my SI. However I managed to rack the 5th gear on the track with a miss-shift.
Still there are several SII with similar issues. In EU the transmission of the SII are the old MX5's.
I guess thats the problem.

Ive done 12K miles on my R3 still shifts like butter, never missed a gear.
S2 has the new MX-5 gear box, the old S1 had the old MX-5 gearbox.:smoker:

I'm not an expert with mechanics but I've had the same problem with not getting the car into gear, it turns out it was not the transmission it was the clutch pressure plate. Does the car shift into gears smoothly when the car is not on?

heck some dealers dont even know how to adjust the ppf, dont replace the pilot bearing when they change the trans etc. nd never mind the clutch adjustment.
Shees
OD

Really? After 5 years & 55K on my series 1, including many track and activity days, I had NO issues, and would in fact say I was a MUCH MORE aggressive driver, certainly in the earlier years!

These days, I consider myself VERY smooth with the gearbox and clutch, performing rev matching (no, not blipping the throttle or heel'n'toe - proper, considered rev matching), up and down the box for both "granny" and "spirited" driving styles. (My RoSPA examiner thought so too, awarding me a Gold pass for my Advanced Driving test last March :icon_tup: ).

However, the 5th & 6th synchros went at 8,900 miles on my R3; Heck it's not like they get any abuse - they're only selected at typically cruising speeds and relatively low revs (apart from perhaps a 60MPH 2nd to sixth block shift ;-)).
It took Mazda until 12K miles to properly "diagnose", warranty and fix (and break something else and fix that too!).

Now I feel additional resistance when the box in 1st & 2nd, especially when cold. And fear that 3rd is starting to feel decidedly crunchy even with a warm gearbox.
I hear a lot of MX-5 owners have similar problems, and know of one personally on their 3rd gearbox -- with problems [re-]occurring approx every 6K-9K miles!

I see the advice above about clutch assembly examination, and will ask about that if things get decidedly worse!

So -- what's the experience of the S2 "crunchy gearbox" issues like in Oz?

mine shifts perfectly fine. only the third gear is a bit notchy when cold.

122,000 still shifts smooth as hell. Factory fluid refills every 40k.

Yeah, but that's an S1 which were fine, in comparison.

:lol:

9k still thinks his canyon fun fantasies are teh sheeott :)

Isn't there a parking lot somewhere with traffic cones in it waiting for you, so you can go pretend to be a real race car driver? :)

Just thought I would say I have no issues with mine either. Bought car with 20k miles on it a little over a year ago and now have 26k. I don't understand how you could get a lemon three times, but I guess its possible.

No, you could actually push the car to its true limit rather than pretending you are. There's a huge difference between taking a chance at sliding off line in a parking lot and sliding off a canyon cliff, not to mention the competition perspective of having to find and ride that limit to be on top. I will be more than happy to attend a local parking lot event and have you show me your capability. Based on your comment you should have no problem putting me in my place with your mad riding teh limit skills. :mchase:

I'm currently at 12,000 miles and developing 6th gear grind as well. I have to shift very gently in order not to grind. All other gears engage perfectly regular driving and at the track.
Once it warms up a bit I'll try adjusting the clutch pedal to see if it helps.

Have not heard of too many other issues to be honest...I will make more inquiries.

The first S2 GT here (UK and US R3) demonstrator 5th gear went when on a customer demo.

I know there have been some with issues like youself...

But honestly looking at the latest EPC, Mazda have made very few internal changes for S2 box.

With mine and I have an original, I have not had any issues, but perhaps I am lucky because I take it easy when cold, I usually (where I am located) get on a 100 KMH express way (no stopping) and have no need to change gear until I am off it some 20-25 minutes later, by that time my box is warm to hot.

IMO, Changing out the gear fluid is a must...and give it time to get hot.

PLUS, Like any gearbox the more you change up or down the more it wears (no brainer I know), and what "normally" wears out first are the Synchro Rings.

I can only go by what others say, recently Mr Meyer (Meyer Motorsports), who likes and uses the S2 gearbox in his track RX-8, he says it is bullet proof, but the Synchro will/do wear out...he posted this info here in this site a few months back.

I use Redline MT90, and my box appears to like it and Yes, 1 to 2 is a little notchy and stiff.
Just remember as I have said before, ALL these boxes are notchy or nickety, they are not sloppy gated or numb, like many "other" makers use.

The MX-5 and RX-8 are meant to have the "analog" feel. :)

Dude, you basically just described my transmission.

My 4th gear was also popping out, practically since I bought the car. (2009 Model)
I had it repaired at about 8,000 miles because it got worse and worse.
If you search miata.net the NC miatas have the same problem. There is an adjustment procedure, I tried to do it myself but didnt work for me. Had to take it to the dealer and they replaced some 3rd & 4th gear parts. It is working now but was not happy with the technician that worked on the car. Had to take it back a couple times for him to get it right.

no problem with my tranny, and I drive her hard.
I think when you need a lot of pressure getting the gear in, youre doing it wrong. the gearbox tells you when its not gotta take the speed and the syncro would just block the gear out.
under normal operation you dont really need to force the shifter in, its more like a gentle push it should slide in.
I shift mine using 3 fingers. thats how light a normal operating transmission should feel like.

I also had this issue before and after the repair on the 8. I brought it up to the dealer and they blew me off. At that point I traded in the car before it got worse plus Jersey snow storms were killing me. I got a Evo MR so far no issues with the SST. Still miss the R3, maybe i'll pick up one used in a few years!

Thats what I was taught with my first car and I have never had transmission trouble in any car I have owned since. A light touch when shifting and you wont be forcing anything and shouldn't be having an issues come up.

Your problem is the mechanic. Most shops have a mechanic that is dedicated to transmissions. The shifting mechanism on the 09/10 trans is often installed incorrectly. This transmission is also the same case as the Ford Ranger (with a different bell housing obviously). How do I know this? Because two of my race crew rebuild transmissions for both Mazda and Ford and we've had this exact issue (one time and only one time).

Contact me if you need my guys to give you love. It will cost you more in shipping than the cost to crack her open and set it up properly. No new parts required.

Eric Meyer
Indianapolis, IN
Owner of 4 09/10 manual trans that have all been cracked open.

Same transmission except for a few very minor differences.

OP, I can supply you the Mazda Transmission Workshop Manual P66M–D.
It is in PDF, Updated and 64 pages, print it off and take it to your dealer.
There are many re-installation Cautions and Tips, too many to mention here.

P66M-D Transmission (design) is used in ALL series 2 (2009) and 2005 NC MX-5.

most dealers would ship the transmission to a 3rd party for a rebuild so I dont see why it would be much of a problem to go through them.

I'm experiencing a similar problem with my transmission. First is hard to engage but when the car is off, everything shifts smoothly. Dealer said clutch pedal is good to go (go figure, right?) On my third transmission, clutch and flywheel is new and only mods are rp short shifter and synchro saver. I'm wondering if it could be the clutch pedal bracket or the fluid. Clutch is centerforce dual friction btw with stock flywheel if that matters.
Also first is only hard to engage from a dead stop. Other than that the car shifts great.

Frustrated with 4th gear as well...
 

I also have the 4th gear intermittent pop-out issue on my 2009 Series II with about 9,000 miles.

It's been to the dealer once before for this issue and told me it was a misalignment between the transmission and motor. Supposedly fixed it, but the problem is still there.

Thanks to ASH8, I brought to Wayne Mazda in NJ a copy of the P66M-D manual and I printed out the adjustment procedure from miata.net. The service advisor seemed very receptive and even brought the tech out who admitted they do not teach about the adjustments in their training. They took the printed out adjustment procedure and I left the dealer feeling pretty good.

A different service advisor called me today and stated they had fixed the problem, which was the transmission mount. They supposedly checked the eccentric shaft nut and it was tight. Being suspicious that they didn't actually go through the adjustment procedure (even though the nut is tight, it could still be adjusted incorrectly), I asked if they compared the distances from the flats on the shifter in 3rd and 4th, and received a lukewarm response that they checked everything.
They also supposedly looked at the shifter assembly and everything looked correct.

I am extremely skeptical that this would have solved the problem and won't know until I pick the car up tomorrow.

If there was a problem with an adjustment on a transmission mount, wouldn't I have an engagement issue with more gears than just 4th?

The adjustment procedure is here in case any one else needs it.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=237737

I tried to do it myself and adjusted the flats just like Jason says but it still popped out. I then tried to adjust the 4th gear even further against the back of the transmission but that did not work either. Took it to the dealer, the mechanic changed some parts. Reinstalled it, still popped out, then took it back out and did some kind of adjustment again for the 3rd/4th and now it seems ok.

I hope yours is ok. My experience with the dealership mechanic was very poor. That is why I tried to do the procedure myself the first time. Wish they just gave me a new transmission sometimes.

Some of Jason's ideas are very good and some are slightly outdated to his appreciated and experience written in 2007.

Mazda have since done some upgrades to ALL 09 RX-8 transmissions since his advise, whether Mazda changes "helped" is debatable.

Mazda Europe Racing MX-5's renew the original 3-4th Black Plastic Square Bush with a Brass Copy, not a round aluminum one.
When racing you use 3-4 more than any other gear.

Sorry I do not buy the "Transmission Mount" """Adjustment""" either, sounds to me like another service adviser brush off.
What is the tranny like now?

I won't know until tomorrow at the earliest. It's currently snowing outside and I'm in no rush to pick up the car from the dealership. All I know is that if the transmission still pops out of 4th, I'm making a few calls to both Mazda North America as well as my lawyer.