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2009 R3 immobilizer

Old 04-17-2011, 01:17 PM
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2009 R3 immobilizer

Ok--my car has the immobilizer light blinking and will not start with advanced key or the key that fits into the advanced key. Thats the only ones I have. The remote operates everything ok--locks, trunk etc.
I get the flash pattern of 1-6 indicating no communication from keyless module to pcm.
I have replaced /tested every fuse. I have pulled every ground and checked them--they are good.
I have replaced the ignition relays, I have checked every connection and even pulled the fuse box (engine bay and inside) and looked at the wires---nothing appears loose, cracked broken etc.
Battery has full charge with 12.4 volts at terminal and I replaced the advanced key battery this month.
My tpms is also flashing? But I havent gotten around to checking the air pressure yet. Tires LOOK good.
This happened all of a sudden overnight. Car was running great before I parked it.
A little while ago the dash wouldnt work but I found a cracked meter fuse--replaced that and then no problems.
ANYTHING I can do before having it towed to Dealer? This is a rebuilt car so it doesnt have any warrenty.
OD
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:27 PM
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this may be wrong, but I was experiencing the same issue with my 07. I pulled the battery plugs for 20 min, put them back on and it worked. Unsure of the cause or how that fixed the problem
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:52 PM
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didnt work for me, but thanks for posting.
OD
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Old 04-17-2011, 02:23 PM
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Do you have access to a scan tool with dealer type code retrieval? One that can scan the RKE and tell you if there are any network/can codes?
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Old 04-17-2011, 06:57 PM
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I wish!
all i have is ob2 scanner
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
I wish!
all i have is ob2 scanner
LOL! Get this one for your laptop:

http://www.autoenginuity.com/index.html

It's $250 then you buy the Mazda enhanced software for another $150.

Here's a list of the enhanced Mazda data:
http://www.autoenginuity.com/Mazda-A...tems-List.html

Scan for any network codes/immobilizer codes and then we can troubleshoot it with the factory workshop manual.
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:53 AM
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might be your smart key authorisation, needs to be plugs on the dealers consult and re-authorize your smart keys, never happened to me personnaly but I work in a dealer and it happens once in a while
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:06 AM
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Do you have the second advanced key? I have the same problem on my CX-7. One key isn't recognized by the ignition system, the second one works fine.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:27 PM
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wow jrx---thats a nice set up. I could be real dangerous with that

Unfortunitly no second key.
I think I have tried to start it so much it is now in a lock down state. I am known at the Mazda dealership and do get discounts there. Spoke with them this morning and the standard reply--which I knew.
Tempted to get the above mentioned software--if I knew I could fix it.
OD
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:53 PM
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You're probably past this point already, but whenever I have trouble with my smart key jiggling the steering wheel back and forth a few times always helps. Also try holding the wheel slightly to one side and try starting.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
wow jrx---thats a nice set up. I could be real dangerous with that

Unfortunitly no second key.
I think I have tried to start it so much it is now in a lock down state. I am known at the Mazda dealership and do get discounts there. Spoke with them this morning and the standard reply--which I knew.
Tempted to get the above mentioned software--if I knew I could fix it.
OD
I found another one that is a bit cheaper but I've never used it or heard of anyone else using it. I have the autoenginuity and that seems to be the more popular one.

http://www.scantool.net/scanxl-mazda...cs-add-on.html

Also it does not say it supports 2009+ models so I would probably email their support to make sure.

The scan tool is expensive, but it is much better than a regular handheld code reader especially when you need the larger live data screens. It really is a benefit to have "almost" as much capabilities as the factory scan tool. What I did is went half with a buddy and just share it. You can install the software in a couple different laptops and you just have the one USB OBDII cable. So we just pass it along whenever we need it. We also chipped in to get the Ford enhanced package because we both own 6.0L diesels and you really need a good scan tool for those since they have so many bi-directional capabilities. Another thought is you could charge a couple bucks every time some one with a Mazda (or any other car using the generic mode) in your area needs a scan and you'll eventually make some of your money back up.

Hey I think you could even do your own seat weight sensor initializations?!? (with some accurate weights). If you go to the dealer, most time they charge you at least one hour to two hours diagnostic, so if you can skip out on that once or twice, the scan tool will already pay for itself.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:16 PM
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ok Mr Thunder--i am willing to try anything at this point--i will bend myself into a prezel tonight.
OD
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:14 AM
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other than a few aches---that didnt work.
I got to thinking--my work ID badge has a rfid chip and I have an antique type beeper i use for work. Each time I have had trouble with (1st was the blown meter fuse) the advanced key I have had my work ID and beeper inside the car. I am wondering if that has thrown the car reader off? If it did I wonder why it didnt recover?
OD
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
other than a few aches---that didnt work.
I got to thinking--my work ID badge has a rfid chip and I have an antique type beeper i use for work. Each time I have had trouble with (1st was the blown meter fuse) the advanced key I have had my work ID and beeper inside the car. I am wondering if that has thrown the car reader off? If it did I wonder why it didnt recover?
OD
That would make sense for the card key, but you said you removed the card key and used the little metal key right? From my understanding of the system, that means a fault with something that is connected to both sub-systems.

I may be shooting from the hip, but I thought there are two separate but similar systems. Here are my thoughts, someone correct me if I am wrong:

One is the wireless key card, consists of the key card, and antennas all around the vehicle. When it senses the card is in range, it allows the vehicle to start because the wireless id has been pre-programmed into the system. The key card also has the buttons for the doors unlock/lock and trunk opener, but that is another separate functions, differing from the starting system.

Second, there is the actual immobilizer system that involves the metal key. This functions like a regular RX-8 key without the advanced key card system. There is a chip in the key and an antenna around the ignition key hole. So when you stick the key in the ignition the antenna reads the stored key code, sends the information across the data bus and allows the vehicle to start.

SO in your case, it would seem like you have a problem with something that shares both systems together. Like the actual security module, the PCM, or the network data bus wires. I doubt it's the network wires, so that's why we need to scan the vehicle for any security codes.

Again, correct me if I am wrong.

Last edited by jrx13; 04-19-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 04-19-2011, 10:54 AM
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That sounds reasonable and since I dont have any advanced key problems it makes sense.
I have jusy heard of that happening and it was a curious coincidence.
And yes, to confirm, I also tried to use the key that is inside the advanced key remote

When the car iimmobilizer is ativated is it normal for the ob2 scanner to not connect? My scanner is can bus capable and has worked before, but now it reads no connection.
That makes sense to me since the immobilizer is not allowing any communication?
Many thanks for your help with this.
OD
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:48 AM
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No communication issue? That could be your problem. Something on the network may be at fault. You may have lost a module/gateway. I don't ever recall the security light blinking to make you lose connection at the OBDII port.

Hang on......i gotta check the factory manual but I think you can voltage check the pins to see if you have power on the network. I need to see what pins they are.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:15 PM
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i think the power pin is # 16 and I remember that there are 2 can bus pins--one for high and the other for low.
I didnt want to just start probing those things with a voltometer --may cause more problems if I didnt do it correctly?
Will have to check this out tonight when I get home.
You da man jrx. You told me one thing I needed to know.
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
i think the power pin is # 16 and I remember that there are 2 can bus pins--one for high and the other for low.
I didnt want to just start probing those things with a voltometer --may cause more problems if I didnt do it correctly?
Will have to check this out tonight when I get home.
You da man jrx. You told me one thing I needed to know.
There is a power pin and a ground pin at the port but they are only used to power your scan tool.

Looking at a wiring diagram.....there should be two pins for the Hi speed BUS. Looks like the PCM, Keyless control module, ABS/DSC, EPS and instrument cluster are on this BUS.

So looks like you may have an issue with the high speed BUS. If I remember, you can check for voltage on the HI speed terminals, and also measure the resistance. Don't do it yet though, until I'm sure which pins and the normal readings are.
(I'm still at work)

What is weird sounding is your blown meter fuse. Usually fuses don't blow for no reason so I'm wondering if this is related issue.

EDITED POST!

Ok so according to wiring diagram, there are three networks on S2 RX-8s (not sure about S1, I think only two on early models)
1)Hi speed = PCM, TCM (autos), EPS, ABS/DSC, Instrument cluster, etc.
2)Medium speed = Audio unit, information display, bluetooth
3)ISO/K line = auto light system

So olddragger you want to check pins #6 & # 14. Should be top and bottom of each other. Do a quick voltage check, you should have approximately 2.5-2.6v. with the ignition key on.

Use an accurate meter and let me know what you get! Then we can start doing resistance checks after that.

Last edited by jrx13; 04-19-2011 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 04-19-2011, 03:41 PM
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You rock man!

I will do tonight.
Just to clarify--the meter fuse wasnt really blown as one would normally think. It was just the tab inside had a tiny crack that made it come apart. I think I have gremlins.

Hmmm high speed bus problem?---Maybe that is why my tpms light is blinking after you leave the switch on for a while? I had never seen that before.
So if a high speed bus problem is there that would cause the immobilier light no communication code , the no connect ob 2 reader and the blinking tpms light---this is not looking good

But, one step at the time.
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
You rock man!

I will do tonight.
Just to clarify--the meter fuse wasnt really blown as one would normally think. It was just the tab inside had a tiny crack that made it come apart. I think I have gremlins.

Hmmm high speed bus problem?---Maybe that is why my tpms light is blinking after you leave the switch on for a while? I had never seen that before.
So if a high speed bus problem is there that would cause the immobilier light no communication code , the no connect ob 2 reader and the blinking tpms light---this is not looking good

But, one step at the time.
Yup if the high speed network is down, you won't get communication with your scan tool & the car won't start. I remember reading that Mazda usually uses the instrument cluster as the bridge between networks. Meaning it was like the linking device between the Hi speed & Med speed CANs. I'm not sure if it is used that way in the RX8s though, I'm still researching this.

It appears the TPMS light may or may not be related. Did the light come on after you changed the fuse or only since the no start problem occurred?

The manual says the TPMS module will lose it's stored data when you either disconnect the battery or the ignition cluster wiring. You then need to drive the car over 15mph to have it relearn the settings/IDs. The wiring diagram shows the meter fuse going to the TPMS module. It also shows it being connected to the instrument cluster. I think you mentioned you changed the meter fuse and you also disconnected & connected certain connectors already? So the question is did you notice the TPMS light on when you first had the no start, or did it come on during your troubleshooting procedures?

This kind of repairs are frustrating but it's also pretty interesting learning & reading the manual and trying to figure it out at the same time.

-Jack

Last edited by jrx13; 04-19-2011 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 04-19-2011, 07:14 PM
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well--can bus appears to be ok---2.4--2.45 steady volts to both #6 and # 14 and i was getting 11.9 volts to the ob2 power wire with 12.03 at the battery posts.
So I hooked my actron scanner up to another car and it did not connect either--further investigation leads me to a semi broken pin on the scanner plug --probably when my neighbor borrowed it. Guess that will teach me----again.

but good news is the can bus and ob2 plug is working?

Interesting thing is now my tpms is a constant light--not blinking. The weather heated up around here and i guess it can tell the difference between 30lbs of air and 32 in all 4 tires?

Jeez.
Now looking like an true immobilizer problem, I guess?.
It just really aggravates me that I can not fix this myself.
od
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:35 PM
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Does this help:

http://www.rx8blog.com/rx-8-diagnostic-outputs/

Specifically the Immobilizer System (DTC Inspection) section
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:57 AM
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Thanks for posting--- thats the exact reference I had found to deciper the security key flash code. I am getting the 1-6 ---no communication or mismatched conditions.
I also thought the ob2 port wasnt working --but I found out --it is.

It is looking like a true immobilizer problem.
Now my question is "why did this happen"?
Stupid electronics.
I wonder if their is another layer of security built in? Some cars go into a lock down mode after so many starting attempts once the immobilizer is activated.
OD
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Old 04-20-2011, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
Thanks for posting--- thats the exact reference I had found to deciper the security key flash code. I am getting the 1-6 ---no communication or mismatched conditions.
I also thought the ob2 port wasnt working --but I found out --it is.

It is looking like a true immobilizer problem.
Now my question is "why did this happen"?
Stupid electronics.
I wonder if their is another layer of security built in? Some cars go into a lock down mode after so many starting attempts once the immobilizer is activated.
OD
Some cars do go to lock down mode, I remember some Fords doing that and so some of the Mazda twins would do it too. But I believe it was only the Mazda Tribute and the B-Series pickups. I can't recall a Japanese built Mazda that had immobilizer lock down. On the Tribute, you just had to leave the ignition key on for like 10 minutes or so. It was basically like a timer because in case someone was trying to steal the car it would make them sit there for a while to attempt again. You would know it was in lock down mode because the little immobilizer/theft light would blink super fast.

Glad it was just your scan tool. But it still looks like you may need a dealer level scan to give you any additional codes besides just the powertrain ones.
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:55 AM
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i did find a good info resource
2009 Maxda Rx8 service highlights at
Foxed.ca/rx7manual/manual/mazda
i am saving that one---i never realized all the changes of s2 models, more than what we have learned on this forum.

Agree--to the dealer we will have to go. Even if I could identify exactly what is wrong I dont have the equipment to access and repair.
many thanks for your help
OD
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