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Series II Default Non-Calibrated Fuel Correction

Old 12-28-2018, 09:06 PM
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IL Series II Default Non-Calibrated Fuel Correction

There is a bit of a backstory here, and that will be a separate Thread sometime when I have the gall to call out the responsible parties, but to the main topic.

I am attempting to re-calibrate my un-calibrated MAP due to massive over-rich conditions. What I mean by that is a freshly reset PCM without any fuel trims or O2 Readiness. I had a animal damage my clutch, pressure plate, and all bearings while moving and my insurance company and local dealer completely fucked me in many ways. I took the car to them with no issues starting, just chattering from the shattered bearings (I found this out later), for diagnostics and they returned me a car that would not disengage the clutch under any condition and claimed it needed jump started. They forced me to buy a new inferior battery to continue troubleshooting, and then destroyed it by trying to start the car with the stuck clutch, also flooding the car. My car had almost 9:1 compression, started on the first crank, and was not running near as rich at startup as it is now. I was forced to go between the dealer and insurance company while dealing with several issues health wise and ended up getting fucked and had to pay for them to basically damage my car even more than when I started. They also threw away my $250 dollar Odessy Flat Plate AGM battery that was perfectly fine, and a great match for the high voltage alternator pairing; just FYI for anyone reading). I called my own tow truck, and got my car back since it was going from 13.5 to 9 on the new battery and the whole engine and wheels trying to spin. This obviously just went over their head which is why I wanted to just be done and protect my baby from more pain.

So I dropped the transmission, and exhaust in the process. I found the shattered pressure plate and clutch disc and it was a mess to repair and clean out. With the extremely generous help from my family we took on the monumental task with only the Factory service manual and a clutch kit. (This is why I am extremely thankful to everyone on this forum who provided information and made sure guys like me have the Mazda documentation to do such a thing). I also found that the Catalyst was just gone, or had blown out somewhere or maybe the inner are caught in the muffler? It was there previously for 3 years and passed TX emissions and didn't have near the rich issue as it does now. The car is now assembled, a non-bullshit battery has replaced the junk I was sold good clutch, cleaned flywheel, and de-flooded/cleaned plugs/extra premix. I have done 100 miles, but had to flash recently to add 10% to the oil map, delete DTC420, and move to my Mazdaedit map.

Believe it or not, that is some of the relivant stuff, without the videos of the possum, dealer caught on camera lying, pictures, documentation, transmission pictures, and etc.

My problem is at cold boot it is running so rich that it makes you change clothes and take a shower or you will make people sick from the fuel smell and that is in the cabin, go outside and you can barely breathe. I don't always mind, but it isn't great for your social life and the car's ignition system. The premix is successfully protecting the seals from hydro-locking type problems, but I am having trouble finding the right table to modify.

I want to start with finding the right table in MazdaEdit and this is what I think might be it. If no one replies, this will just be documentation for someone with a similar problem.

MAF (Might need some tightening up, I am familiar with this)
Open Loop Fuel (Gear 1-2)
Throttle Fuel Enrich (Gear 1-2)
Idle Tables A-E?

and I plan on getting my data from these params

STFT
LTFT
AFR
AFR Real
O2 Temp B1S2 (Post Cat)
MAFv
MAF
Throttle Positions
O2 Ready State (This is where the car is perfectly fine after 50-75 miles)
Alternator Voltage (This is obviously a check and balance for sensors and regulator not getting enough voltage to be accurate, and so far is not an issue)
Alternator Duty Cycle (Above, request/voltage + Battery Voltage Pre-Start ignition mode)

Would love any input or recommendations if I am on the right path or need a **** check or link to similar issue with a series II I might have missed. As far as I know the Series II is a bit more harsh with it's PCM and cutting edge Canbus network at the cost of network interference.

It is between 30-50F ambient in IL here, so that isn't helping the problem, and as more miles get on the car it is starting up faster and more like it did before they flooded it or worse. I want to log first and minimize the number of flashes so I can minimize the laundry washes and showers as to not disgust my peers. Will post logs as soon as I have them (MazdaEdit), or have a more shallow ELM327 as I dont want to risk bumping it while shifting.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:54 PM
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Ummm, where to start...
How did an animal damage your clutch?
9:1 compression? You changed the compression ratio? It's 10:1 from the factor and this can't change without cracking open the engine and replacing parts.
Premix can't prevent hydrolocking. I'm not even sure why your engine would be in danger of that without driving it into a lake.

If it's running that rich, shouldn't you figure out why?
What does your STFT look like at warm idle?
If the fuel odor is so strong that you have to shower and change clothes (and you can smell it in the cabin) then you probably have a fuel leak rather than getting crazy amount of unburned fuel through the exhaust.
Seriously, check around the injectors under the UIM and in the valleys where the LIM meets the keg.

tl;dr why are you trying to fix a hardware problem with software?

Last edited by NotAPreppie; 12-28-2018 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
Ummm, where to start...
How did an animal damage your clutch?
9:1 compression? You changed the compression ratio? It's 10:1 from the factor and this can't change without cracking open the engine and replacing parts.
Premix can't prevent hydrolocking. I'm not even sure why your engine would be in danger of that without driving it into a lake.

If it's running that rich, shouldn't you figure out why?
What does your STFT look like at warm idle?
If the fuel odor is so strong that you have to shower and change clothes (and you can smell it in the cabin) then you probably have a fuel leak rather than getting crazy amount of unburned fuel through the exhaust.
Seriously, check around the injectors under the UIM and in the valleys where the LIM meets the keg.

tl;dr why are you trying to fix a hardware problem with software?
(Possum)
It was hanging out between the Clutch Master and Clutch slave and pinched it or interfered with their the pedal linkage or on the flexible line nearest to the transmission or maybe something else. I opened the hood after the clutch pedal started going up and down on its own and getting stuck to the floor and I jumped when I saw the little guy there going between around the SJB and by the tunnel. He might have even been stunned by the plug wires.

(Compression)
Sorry I didn't explain that correctly, the compression test was 9:1 at 260rpm was just preempting the whole your engine is fucked argument. I get it tested or did with my dealer in Texas to keep up with it's life span. It actually went up from my pre-purchase inspection after a few months of Rotary Premix, new plugs, coil packs, better battery, and supercap install. It always started on the first crank which is just ******* fantastic for a rotary.

Sidebar: Can you even change the compression on the last gen 13B? I thought 10:1 was the max for the mechanism that the 13B uses, which I am looking for the post that explains how awesome that mech works.

When I reassembled the car I reseated the wires, cleaned the foul plugs, deflooding using our procedure (the forums) with a battery charger and got it started and running before I even dropped it from reinstalling the transmission.

After 75 miles it runs perfect, and it gets better every mile I put on it, but here is the last data I have from memory since the log fucked up. I am still working on getting an OBDLink MX again since mine had some kind of BT issue, and Torque. I am a bit ******* obsessed, but holy **** is Torque bitchin by recording Video, GPS Data, and params that you can break down by the exact location param by param. Sorry that is just carnerd **** to me.

I am collecting new data but STFT at warm idle after the o2 is ready is usually pulling fuel, ltft is smilar, but MazdaEdit started crashing while I was going down the road so limited logs got fucked up.

No Fuel leak or fluid leak other than some transmission fluid from the shifter from a mistake my father made by trying to add it there. I siphoned most of it. This problem is only till the o2 sensor is ready then it runs perfect even with cold weather. Rougher start than I am ok with, but also improving.

This problem may work itself out, but it presented an opportunity to learn more about tuning the car, so I was down. It misses the nice Houston elevation and warmer winters, that is why it was not a problem before.

Going to look into your suggestion with the UIM, because I do not know near as much as I could, but no fuel, vapors, or odors. If anything smelling a bit warm after warm up after that bit of fluid leaked out of the shifter boot. Also will quadruple check the red and blue fuel hoses and look for cracks. The boot was not tight around the shifter (the one that attaches to the transmission), and having my windows cracked to listen for problems exposes me to fuel. If I started it and took off right away it wouldn't be much of a problem, but I always warm up and cool down. In Texas I had a large harbor freight fan in my garage to cool after driving from work, which is highly recommended and a cheap user mod. It also kept vapors out of the garage at cold boot. I also enjoy when I am not sick digging into the Service Manual and learning how this car is assembled. Just so in love with this machine, I went from a Mazdaspeed3 to the R3 because of the love Mazda put into it.

(Hydrolocking)
Maybe this was bullshit, but I was told that an engine with flooded cylinders of fuel can hydrolock and engine and damage it. I am not the best at weeding out bullshit and that is a great reason to join a Forum and fact check. Would love any input you have on this one, maybe it is called something else when it washes out the cylinder, or maybe it is typical car guy bullshit. I have had such good luck by adding 10% to the oil injection and adding Rotary premix. It is a serious bummer to go from great to broken **** then ???? dealer and then trying to backtrack whatever dumb **** they did to it. I had a MazdaSpeed3 I bought from the same dealer with a warranty and a few years back before I moved out of IL they ******* blackmailed me while the car was stock because it had a factory MazdaSpeed CAI. I had to find a stock airbox, buy it, get it overnight shipped, and then pay the dealer 200 dollars to install it to lie for their condition they warranted and wanted to lie about. That isn't all but the point is assume they do the typical non-rotary mechanic things like flooding it, and have no clue. I got forced their by the insurance company, and trying to just forget it and drive 100 miles to a better dealer for health type checks.

I have a 13B NA from a FC with the diff, cluster, pcm, and the complete engine to learn from, but it is going to be a wire splice job getting it to work on a engine stand. The first cylinder was locked up with either carbon or something else and it was seized and I un-seized it just for fun, it was free so.... Anyway just have it for learning the 13B, but obviously the irons, oil injection, and porting are different and that NA revision isn't really liked. All the more reason to learn it and scrap it when I am done.

Appreciate your input man, I had to google TLDR though. Been a bit out of the internets loop lately. Can be a bit long winded so take what you want from the post.

Also upgraded to the LS2 ignition with new plugs <5,000 ago. Worth it....

Last edited by badinfluence; 12-28-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by badinfluence View Post
(Possum)
(Compression)
Sorry I didn't explain that correctly, the compression test was 9:1 at 260rpm was just preempting the whole your engine is fucked argument. I get it tested or did with my dealer in Texas to keep up with it's life span. It actually went up from my pre-purchase inspection after a few months of Rotary Premix, new plugs, coil packs, better battery, and supercap install. It always started on the first crank which is just ******* fantastic for a rotary.
That's not fantastic... That's just normal for a healthy rotary. Mine starts first crank.
You're trying to express compression in terms used for compression ratio. Number, colon, number is a ratio. Compression test results are expressed as a pressure and RPM (usually in PSI, kPa, kgf/m^2, etc). Like "115/115/110 psi @ 260 RPM".


Sidebar: Can you even change the compression on the last gen 13B? I thought 10:1 was the max for the mechanism that the 13B uses, which I am looking for the post that explains how awesome that mech works.
Different rotors will probably do it.

When I reassembled the car I reseated the wires, cleaned the foul plugs, deflooding using our procedure (the forums) with a battery charger and got it started and running before I even dropped it from reinstalling the transmission.

After 75 miles it runs perfect, and it gets better every mile I put on it, but here is the last data I have from memory since the log fucked up. I am still working on getting an OBDLink MX again since mine had some kind of BT issue, and Torque. I am a bit ******* obsessed, but holy **** is Torque bitchin by recording Video, GPS Data, and params that you can break down by the exact location param by param. Sorry that is just carnerd **** to me.

I am collecting new data but STFT at warm idle after the o2 is ready is usually pulling fuel, ltft is smilar, but MazdaEdit started crashing while I was going down the road so limited logs got fucked up.
WAT?

No Fuel leak or fluid leak other than some transmission fluid from the shifter from a mistake my father made by trying to add it there. I siphoned most of it. This problem is only till the o2 sensor is ready then it runs perfect even with cold weather. Rougher start than I am ok with, but also improving.
Are you sure? How are gasoline fumes from the exhaust getting inside the cabin?

This problem may work itself out, but it presented an opportunity to learn more about tuning the car, so I was down. It misses the nice Houston elevation and warmer winters, that is why it was not a problem before.

Going to look into your suggestion with the UIM, because I do not know near as much as I could, but no fuel, vapors, or odors. If anything smelling a bit warm after warm up after that bit of fluid leaked out of the shifter boot. Also will quadruple check the red and blue fuel hoses and look for cracks. The boot was not tight around the shifter (the one that attaches to the transmission), and having my windows cracked to listen for problems exposes me to fuel. If I started it and took off right away it wouldn't be much of a problem, but I always warm up and cool down. In Texas I had a large harbor freight fan in my garage to cool after driving from work, which is highly recommended and a cheap user mod. It also kept vapors out of the garage at cold boot. I also enjoy when I am not sick digging into the Service Manual and learning how this car is assembled. Just so in love with this machine, I went from a Mazdaspeed3 to the R3 because of the love Mazda put into it.
Wait, so what is the smell you're talking about if there's no fuel odor or vapors?

(Hydrolocking)
Maybe this was bullshit, but I was told that an engine with flooded cylinders of fuel can hydrolock and engine and damage it. I am not the best at weeding out bullshit and that is a great reason to join a Forum and fact check. Would love any input you have on this one, maybe it is called something else when it washes out the cylinder, or maybe it is typical car guy bullshit. I have had such good luck by adding 10% to the oil injection and adding Rotary premix. It is a serious bummer to go from great to broken **** then ????
You'd have to get a ****-ton of fuel into the combustion chamber to hydrolock it. Normally, hydrolocking happens when a car is driven into deep water and the engine sucks water in through the intake. Liquids (water, gasoline, etc) aren't compressible and the sudden overpressure in the combustion chamber destroys the engine. Even then, there's some debate about whether or not you can hydrolock a rotary.
Also, premix isn't going to do a damn thing about this. Premix is just 2-stroke oil added to the gas tank. That won't do a damned thing to change the compressibility of water.

My comments inline...

Also: Dude, what?

I'm so lost at this point and the more you type the more lost I get. Seriously, I'm trying to help but you keep adding extraneous info mid-paragraph. Try to keep your paragraphs limited to a single topic and don't change topics in the middle.

Why do you think it's running too rich? Describe the symptoms you are seeing that tell you this is the case.

Keep in mind that it's normal for Renesis motors to run pig rich at cold idle. It's just how they operate.

Last edited by NotAPreppie; 12-28-2018 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 12-29-2018, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
My comments inline...

Also: Dude, what?

I'm so lost at this point and the more you type the more lost I get. Seriously, I'm trying to help but you keep adding extraneous info mid-paragraph. Try to keep your paragraphs limited to a single topic and don't change topics in the middle.

Why do you think it's running too rich? Describe the symptoms you are seeing that tell you this is the case.

Keep in mind that it's normal for Renesis motors to run pig rich at cold idle. It's just how they operate.
Running Rich: At idle only when the O2 sensors are not being taken into account; PCM has not yet calibrated (75miles) After it is calibrated, not rich under any codition, no fumes or smell. With no cat, it blows flames when you go from >7k to the next gear, but lets be honest that is normal and frankly awesome.

I was just expressing starting on the first crank to me means a healthy compression and a happy motor. It struggled hard when I had to deflood, and is every start working it's way back to the first crank, but as it sits usually 2 or 3. The dealer just fucked it up and didn't have the courtesy to deflood it.

I am looking and smelling for fuel after the car is off, didn't mean to confuse you there.When running the first few times like I said that insulating rubber shift boot was a bit loose so is how it was getting into the cabin. It has been reset twice now that makes it run rich in o2 sensor not ready mode which is fail-safe. It has always done that and it is normal, just normally the cat is there and sucks up enough so your not choking. I always kill the power when working on the car, so that is when this stuff is a problem, after the PCM is reset.

Maybe going Back to my main question might clear it up, when a freshly reset pcm is reset and ignoring the o2 sensors, which table is it using as reference? I feel extremely confident I am on the right track and don't need to troubleshoot, I just may need to kill the power from time to time and don't want to drive around 75 miles each time in the dead of winter. (or I think 5 starts with a small amount of driving works too) After that 75 miles, the car runs great again, and cold starts are healthyish. I am more trying to figure out the how since that is most important to me than the why.

It just needs TLC and some cruising miles to undo whatever the dealer did to **** it up in various ways. I took a car in with throw out bearing chatter, I got back a car that was flooded, with the throw out seized to the middle bearing, clutch disk shattered, pressure plate fucked, and they tried to start it with a jumper pack while the whole smash was basically welded so the clutch was always engaged to the drive wheels.


Question
Am I right thinking that on a PCM reset, the PCM uses the open loop tables mode before it is calibrated and it would pass an emissions O2 Readiness test? So the Open Loop Gear 1-2 at idle till it is calibrated.

I am blocked in right now or I would go for a stroll with Mazdaedit open and logging to see if I can get you better data.

I am not really seeking troubleshooting, just trying to learn tables in Mazdaedit. I premix to keep the car healthy not to troubleshoot. It has served me well. I greatly enjoy learning things about this cars tuning methods, Canbus networks, design, construction, and reading the Mazda Service Manual. When I tuned my MazdaSpeed 1 Juan, it didn't have near the break in period the Series II has for calibrating the o2 Sensors, and it was turbocharged so it was just a different animal and on a different planet to the Rotary.




I am not trying to frustrate you, if you are having trouble understanding me I apologize. I can fix this problem by just not resetting the PCM or cutting the power. Nothing is wrong besides the default failsafe idle and the cat being burnt out. If I can't get an answer because I can't describe things accurately it is no big deal. I may never modify the current map if I am not sure, just want to learn the software and logic of the PCM better. I am importing my Closed Loop/Open Loop knowledge from AC electric motor control, so I may be mixing them up.

Last edited by badinfluence; 12-29-2018 at 12:59 AM.
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