DIY: Improve OIL Cooler Air Flow Up to 10-15%
10-27-2009, 11:10 PM
#78
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
I put my Modded Mesh Vents on last night and just got back today from a long (40 minute) trip in 30c (86F) Temps.
Unfortunately I don't have an OIL Temp Guage Yet, but my Physical Stop and Feel Oil Cooler Test was very good, I could keep my fingers on the oil coolers a lot longer than previously with the OEM Vent Shields as they were too hot to touch for even a second!!....
So it must be doing something....I will plug in my OBD Reader later, but my Coolant Temps should be lower or should I say less fan cut in and outs....
Will get back on that one.
Unfortunately I don't have an OIL Temp Guage Yet, but my Physical Stop and Feel Oil Cooler Test was very good, I could keep my fingers on the oil coolers a lot longer than previously with the OEM Vent Shields as they were too hot to touch for even a second!!....
So it must be doing something....I will plug in my OBD Reader later, but my Coolant Temps should be lower or should I say less fan cut in and outs....
Will get back on that one.
10-28-2009, 09:14 PM
#79
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Another Day, same temps, same road, same day time, only this time with my PDA and OBD Reader.
And a Fully HOT Engine with thermostat Fully OPEN.
Last Year 29c, I could see my cooing fans come on and off 4 times on the PDA screen, you see the high and low Temps, this was with my First Vent Mod and NO Air Con On.
Today at 30c, my fans are coming on 3 times in the same PDA screen period as the on-off times are also further apart in distance and time, and NO Air Con On, so it is taking longer for Cooling Fan Relays to turn on and taking longer for engine to reach maximum fan on temps.
The Fans don't appear to be ON for as long either.
So, I know this is not a 100% scientific test, but, it appears with the Mesh Mod to keep OIL cooler is corresponding to coolant and engine temps...which is good news.
I am thinking a further 10-15 % "Cooling Efficiency" with this mesh vent mod.
Engine Oil stays Cooler, so engine is cooler..Happier!!.
Engine Coolant temps are also assisted.
BTW.. After a long drive the OIL Coolers are definitely "Cooler" to touch with your bare fingers, the heat is not as SCORCHING, before any of these vent mods I could not even touch my OC surface at all.
And a Fully HOT Engine with thermostat Fully OPEN.
Last Year 29c, I could see my cooing fans come on and off 4 times on the PDA screen, you see the high and low Temps, this was with my First Vent Mod and NO Air Con On.
Today at 30c, my fans are coming on 3 times in the same PDA screen period as the on-off times are also further apart in distance and time, and NO Air Con On, so it is taking longer for Cooling Fan Relays to turn on and taking longer for engine to reach maximum fan on temps.
The Fans don't appear to be ON for as long either.
So, I know this is not a 100% scientific test, but, it appears with the Mesh Mod to keep OIL cooler is corresponding to coolant and engine temps...which is good news.
I am thinking a further 10-15 % "Cooling Efficiency" with this mesh vent mod.
Engine Oil stays Cooler, so engine is cooler..Happier!!.
Engine Coolant temps are also assisted.
BTW.. After a long drive the OIL Coolers are definitely "Cooler" to touch with your bare fingers, the heat is not as SCORCHING, before any of these vent mods I could not even touch my OC surface at all.
12-26-2009, 07:55 AM
#82
For what its worth... I have done this mod years ago and you may want to use a larger holed mesh and you will see better results. I have also relocated the oilcoolers and adusted them so that more surface area is exposed to the outlet (removed the fog light). You then have to make a custom duct for the cooler. my 2 cents
12-29-2009, 04:55 PM
#85
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Yes, you have to watch you do not OVER COOL your Oil also.
12-29-2009, 10:08 PM
#87
Registered
For what its worth... I have done this mod years ago and you may want to use a larger holed mesh and you will see better results. I have also relocated the oilcoolers and adusted them so that more surface area is exposed to the outlet (removed the fog light). You then have to make a custom duct for the cooler. my 2 cents
One easy thing you can do (and this is for everyone reading this thread) is to seal up your water radiator with some simple window foam. This insures air HAS to go through your radiator which cools your engine better. When your water runs cooler it brings the oil temps along with it. These temps go hand in hand----one goes up and the other follows. Same for decreases in temp.
Be careful when running larger aftermarket oil coolers as they will overcool your oil. Plan on an oil thermostat and you'll be just fine. Our oil temps run 185 F all day long. Summer or winter. 140 mph in the draft or sitting in the paddock. We run nothing behind the two very large Setrab oil coolers with very large openings in front of them to accept as much air as possible. Engine builders for racing rotary engines like to keep the oil at or below 200 F.
12-29-2009, 10:48 PM
#88
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
HUH??...
I guess you are referring to the mesh I used...I wish people would read the thread before commenting..
The Mesh I used has a 50% are flow (from the manufacturer), if I wanted 100% I would put no mesh on at all...
Are you aware of the "Original Holes" or Slits, in a comparison they allow about 20% direct flow..IF THAT..
Yes, the Wider the mesh the More air flow...I did not want any more because I don't want to Over-cool as you later go on to say, I also don't want stones, water or mud getting to this side of the cooler from my tyres.
My modded Splash Shields are only used for Summer, Winter I return to OEM.
The Front of the Oil Coolers in Series II RX-8's have more than twice the opening of earlier RX-8's.
If you read what I said, I actually have Lowered my coolant temps with this mod, so I don't understand how you say I have gone backwards..
I have gone from the OEM's in pic one..to 50% mesh in pic 2 with a much larger cut opening more to the size of the cooler itself or the front opening.
I appreciate constructive advise , however I have a road car not a race car.
I guess you are referring to the mesh I used...I wish people would read the thread before commenting..
The Mesh I used has a 50% are flow (from the manufacturer), if I wanted 100% I would put no mesh on at all...
Are you aware of the "Original Holes" or Slits, in a comparison they allow about 20% direct flow..IF THAT..
Yes, the Wider the mesh the More air flow...I did not want any more because I don't want to Over-cool as you later go on to say, I also don't want stones, water or mud getting to this side of the cooler from my tyres.
My modded Splash Shields are only used for Summer, Winter I return to OEM.
The Front of the Oil Coolers in Series II RX-8's have more than twice the opening of earlier RX-8's.
If you read what I said, I actually have Lowered my coolant temps with this mod, so I don't understand how you say I have gone backwards..
I have gone from the OEM's in pic one..to 50% mesh in pic 2 with a much larger cut opening more to the size of the cooler itself or the front opening.
I appreciate constructive advise , however I have a road car not a race car.
12-29-2009, 11:06 PM
#91
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
For what its worth... I have done this mod years ago and you may want to use a larger holed mesh and you will see better results. I have also relocated the oilcoolers and adusted them so that more surface area is exposed to the outlet (removed the fog light). You then have to make a custom duct for the cooler. my 2 cents
Don't you mean "exposed to the Inlet (removed the fog light)"
I own a Series II, the fogs sit on top and don't interfere with the OC's at all and the "Air Intake/Inlet" area is already over 100%+ larger than the Series I RX-8.
IMO it is also the rear of the OC that need attention in all Series RX-8's, I always believe it is better to have a matching volume of Air IN and Air Out...if one can.
12-29-2009, 11:15 PM
#92
9k i believe that is the stock oilcooler duct... the reason you are seeing is because the fog light has been removed.
ASH8 basically there is more to be gained in cooling with a larger mesh or the removal of the entire panel (as you and Eric both recognize). The smaller rain gutter gaurd's holes are so small it actually may slow the air down to a point in whch the modification becomes less effective (Higher speeds I assume). I am sure you are seeing drops in oil temps over the stock ventalation but there is more to be gained with the same protection.
spoolinmazda out
ASH8 basically there is more to be gained in cooling with a larger mesh or the removal of the entire panel (as you and Eric both recognize). The smaller rain gutter gaurd's holes are so small it actually may slow the air down to a point in whch the modification becomes less effective (Higher speeds I assume). I am sure you are seeing drops in oil temps over the stock ventalation but there is more to be gained with the same protection.
spoolinmazda out
12-29-2009, 11:19 PM
#93
I just had to go look. This is a pic of a passenger side cooler. The area with in the blue is an approximation of where the stock oil cooler resides in a S1. I could stick my hand almost two inches down to the bottom of the cooler and almost the same on the left. The area between the opening in the bumper and the cooler has a large gap I could fit my hand in however that gap was sealed around the sides of the cooler.
12-29-2009, 11:23 PM
#95
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Who said I have 'Rain Gutter Guard" Holes???
I don't need more GAINS, my temps are fine..there is no point in posting the bleeding obvious..
I don't need more GAINS, my temps are fine..there is no point in posting the bleeding obvious..
12-30-2009, 06:16 AM
#96
Registered
I think we are dealing with symantics and if you read into things a bit closer you'll see this. My point is that nobody knows until something is measured. Good, reasonable assumptions can sometimes prove other and you don't know until you measure it. I wish people would provide more data as these kind of posts often introduce more questions than not. Perhaps you can share more data from your PDA with people who are following this thread in hopes of also lowering their oil temps. Possibly a "with screens" and then with the stock plastic fender covers??? Do you have a few minutes to do this in the future and share your findings? Temperatures up here in the Northern Hemisphere are not great for this type of testing for the majority of us this time of year.
My personal experience is that people who invest time and effort in fabricating a product/idea/gizmo is they become defensive---and rightly so. They often defend their product with hours of toiling in thier garage, trial and error and a few dollars of their hard earned income. The step that is often missed is the final one---measuring the results. I use to be one of these guys until I started hiring engineers to help me design a proper solution to accomplish our objectives. More often that not a DIY person (and you'll HEAR this on all forums when you start reading closely my fellow car enthusiasts) will get a hint of what they are looking for and call it quits believing there findings are rock solid. My hopes are that more testing is done for ALL products and ideas. Many smart people I know (automotive engineers specializing if various car systems) avoid these forums because of the unscientific testing methods. They laugh at what some (not necessarily this thread) assume. For example, I know several professional fabricators who build race cars for a living that have great intentions and they have no vested interest in testing. Their strengths my revolve around welding or sheet metal work or electrial wiring but that doesn't mean they test thier final products. More often than not these people can think in a "vacuum" and see only what they are looking for. My hopes for you is that you've actually acheived your goals and objectives over your entire operating temperatue rrange(s) and share information so others can benefit. This may not be your objective but it is mine. Too many false and untested "good intention" ideas on this forum that never have data to back them up.
I (we) look forward to reading your facts so others can benefit from your hard work.
happy rotoring,
Eric
My personal experience is that people who invest time and effort in fabricating a product/idea/gizmo is they become defensive---and rightly so. They often defend their product with hours of toiling in thier garage, trial and error and a few dollars of their hard earned income. The step that is often missed is the final one---measuring the results. I use to be one of these guys until I started hiring engineers to help me design a proper solution to accomplish our objectives. More often that not a DIY person (and you'll HEAR this on all forums when you start reading closely my fellow car enthusiasts) will get a hint of what they are looking for and call it quits believing there findings are rock solid. My hopes are that more testing is done for ALL products and ideas. Many smart people I know (automotive engineers specializing if various car systems) avoid these forums because of the unscientific testing methods. They laugh at what some (not necessarily this thread) assume. For example, I know several professional fabricators who build race cars for a living that have great intentions and they have no vested interest in testing. Their strengths my revolve around welding or sheet metal work or electrial wiring but that doesn't mean they test thier final products. More often than not these people can think in a "vacuum" and see only what they are looking for. My hopes for you is that you've actually acheived your goals and objectives over your entire operating temperatue rrange(s) and share information so others can benefit. This may not be your objective but it is mine. Too many false and untested "good intention" ideas on this forum that never have data to back them up.
I (we) look forward to reading your facts so others can benefit from your hard work.
happy rotoring,
Eric
12-30-2009, 07:34 AM
#97
Registered
A few interesting assumptions that when tested we found some interesting findings. These findings were the OPPOSITE of what we assumed or would've thought to be true. I share these with everyone so that they can test and enjoy the wonderment of the "aha" moment when the truth is discovered. I wish more people would spend the time to test (not just you Mr. Ash). Most forums have weekend warriors with a few car nut mechanical engineers or seasoned racers who been around the block. Listen a bit more closely to these folks as you'll find they often have better merit in their responses.
-The MazdaSpeed nose produces lift at high speeds. We discovered 5/8" max increase in front nose height at Daytona. Interestingly enough our SpeedSource friends reported better downforce with the 2009 nose. I don't recall exactly however this was above 90 mph and below 140.
-Testing different spark plugs did not gain us any measureable h.p. Often the gains you might see are clouded by the variation inherent in a chassis dyno. A 1% variation in a dyno (99% accuracy) equates to approx. 2 hp on our RX8 You may be looking for less than 2 hp when testing plugs (or different oil weights) and therefore your testing can't truly be confirmed becuase the variation can offset your gains (or losses).
-A zero weight oil will make about 1 measurable hp on the chassis dyno with a Renesis when you run it hot. The NASCAR boys do this and call it a "qualifying oil". We were unable to obtain repeated results on this one. Big V-8 engines developing 400+ hp make it easier to see small hp changes. 5-7 hp is what a close friend who has raced for dozens of years with many championships has confirmed.
-PORTING can be counterproductive. I've confirmed this on a flowbench using more than one effort. Some people believe that "bigger is better". Do some searching on this forum and see just how many people refer to testing using a flow bench and you'll see what I mean. I've found zero. Grinders are cheap. Some DIY guys want to jump it and get to work before understanding the principles of porting. Testing is expensive. Piston motors and rotaries have differing porting philosophies.
-Used Grand-Am Hoosier tires are SLOWER than people think. Some people buy these used tires thinking they are fast. About 5-7 heat cycles and these things fall off. This is one weekend for us and most teams. They may look like they have rubber on them (and they do) however they provide very little grip. I would argue that a used set of Toyo RA1 is faster than a R6 or G-Am compound with more than 10 cycles. Some people think the white lettered "Hoosier" on the outside of the tire is sexy or faster or both. Perception can be a foundation for people's beliefs. For this reason I don't like to sell our used tires. People don't get it. I use to be one of these guys that bought these tires.
-Even the best roll cage race car fabricators produce cars that don't pass race tech inspection. You wouldn't believe the lack of 360 degree welds you'd find when you look closely at cars. Roll cage design and fabrication is a top that most people are TOTALLY foreign too. They think a roll cage is a roll cage is a roll cage. Let the buyer beware. A good roll cage costs about twice what the garage welder will charge you because there is more effort and work involved----not markup. Often a beginner's budget determines the final shop they deal with. Few resources exist for the new guy to learn about this subject. Most people making the plunge for the first time trust their fabricator with their life knowing little in any about what they are buying. Does this subject have any data I can provide? No. Just experience. Most of you that know me understand that I like to share my experiences so others can benefit. I blazed my own path and had to discover many of these concepts on my own. Contact me if you need some advice when choosing a roll cage fabricator.
-"Porting" a throttle body can produce less h.p. Ask me how I know.
-Headers produce more h.p. which is contra to most people's belief on this forum. The more gradual a collector the more power you'll start to discover. Most products out there on the market today use a very inexpensive, off the shelf collector that is easier to make and supply. We've found this to be the primary driver in making h.p. Unfortunately this same collector can be the single most expensive part of a header system. Our collectors have ranged from $200 US to $600 JUST FOR THE COLLECTOR. Our COLLECTORS cost (our cost) more than some headers on the market. Want a good S.S. header that makes power? Budget for well over $1,500 US for max power because you'll want to rebuild your entire exhaust system all the way to the exhaust tips.
-Paper air filtration is a superior filtration media when compared to the K&N (or other metal) mesh type filters. We were able to confirm this at Daytona and Homestead which have lots of sand media. Have you ever seen an oil pan full of sand? How about the same oil pan absent of sand when you run a paper filter in the same exact filter location. Interesting enough when I talked to our engineering friends at SpeedSource after the oil pan findings the first thing I was asked was: "what kind of air filter are you running?". It turns out the 3 rotor Grand-Am engines use------------the stock mazda RX-8 paper air filter---no ****. They report a 1 hp loss compared to a metal mesh style.
-A proper alignment of all the various pieces of the AEM/Mazdaspeed intake has a larger impact on dyno numbers than the intake itself. I've seen a quantifyable 5 hp delta between a crappy install and one where you stick a flashlight down in there and align all those little pieces being careful to avoid/reduce the various notches and bends. Air doesn't like to bend and these intakes have lots of opportunity to bend along with bottlenecks or contraints. Spend some time looking at your system. A bandsaw can be your friend when looking for a 1 or 2 more hp (hint, hint)
-The stock electronic Throttle pedal assembly can fail or even worse can be inconsistant. You can confirm this by measuring the actual throttle position signal the pedal sends to the ECM. What might appear to be full throttle with your foot might be something totally different. This is really hard to diagnose. Ask me how I know this.
-A new 2009/2010 Renesis engine makes more power than a 2004-2008 on an engine dyno.
-There is a fair amount of weight variation in stock RX-8 rotors. If you need to replace one it is key that you should have your rotating assembly balanced. We've found in several cases that simple replacement of rotors CAN throw off the balance to be worse than stock. Spend the extra effort/dollars to have your ENTIRE assembly balanced. I can suggest one super great engine builder to do this. For one of our engines he went through 5 rotors to find one that was close to his target weight before balancing the system.
-Last but not least. THERE IS NO REASON TO RUN YOUR N.A. CAR TO 9,000 RPM!!!!!!!! There is no power there. There is less power there. Stupid. Screw the carbon blow out theories. Look at your dyno sheets people. Look at any dyno sheet. Stupid. These motors have rotor wobble at these higher rpms and you can discover this during engine teardown. Power loss. I think you'll find that it is faster/smarter to shift about 8,700 rpm. Do your own research. The next time your run on a chassis dyno try this: Warm up your engine and drive train and start out in first gear. Run through the gears from 1st to the shift to 6th using a 9,000 rpm redline for each shift. Record this entire session in one long, continuous dyno run. Note the dyno graph and where your power curve resides when you shift at 9K. Now repeat this exercise shifting at 8,500 every time or 8,700 everytime and compare to your 9,000 rpm test. You will find that you are operating at higher power when you are lower than 9K or above. Or you can believe that there is power is up there and continue to run your mouth on these forums and be incorrect. Testing is expensive but it's the only way to confirm your assumptions. Take a look at some of our dyno graphs and see where the power falls off.
Happy rotoring and test, test, test.
-The MazdaSpeed nose produces lift at high speeds. We discovered 5/8" max increase in front nose height at Daytona. Interestingly enough our SpeedSource friends reported better downforce with the 2009 nose. I don't recall exactly however this was above 90 mph and below 140.
-Testing different spark plugs did not gain us any measureable h.p. Often the gains you might see are clouded by the variation inherent in a chassis dyno. A 1% variation in a dyno (99% accuracy) equates to approx. 2 hp on our RX8 You may be looking for less than 2 hp when testing plugs (or different oil weights) and therefore your testing can't truly be confirmed becuase the variation can offset your gains (or losses).
-A zero weight oil will make about 1 measurable hp on the chassis dyno with a Renesis when you run it hot. The NASCAR boys do this and call it a "qualifying oil". We were unable to obtain repeated results on this one. Big V-8 engines developing 400+ hp make it easier to see small hp changes. 5-7 hp is what a close friend who has raced for dozens of years with many championships has confirmed.
-PORTING can be counterproductive. I've confirmed this on a flowbench using more than one effort. Some people believe that "bigger is better". Do some searching on this forum and see just how many people refer to testing using a flow bench and you'll see what I mean. I've found zero. Grinders are cheap. Some DIY guys want to jump it and get to work before understanding the principles of porting. Testing is expensive. Piston motors and rotaries have differing porting philosophies.
-Used Grand-Am Hoosier tires are SLOWER than people think. Some people buy these used tires thinking they are fast. About 5-7 heat cycles and these things fall off. This is one weekend for us and most teams. They may look like they have rubber on them (and they do) however they provide very little grip. I would argue that a used set of Toyo RA1 is faster than a R6 or G-Am compound with more than 10 cycles. Some people think the white lettered "Hoosier" on the outside of the tire is sexy or faster or both. Perception can be a foundation for people's beliefs. For this reason I don't like to sell our used tires. People don't get it. I use to be one of these guys that bought these tires.
-Even the best roll cage race car fabricators produce cars that don't pass race tech inspection. You wouldn't believe the lack of 360 degree welds you'd find when you look closely at cars. Roll cage design and fabrication is a top that most people are TOTALLY foreign too. They think a roll cage is a roll cage is a roll cage. Let the buyer beware. A good roll cage costs about twice what the garage welder will charge you because there is more effort and work involved----not markup. Often a beginner's budget determines the final shop they deal with. Few resources exist for the new guy to learn about this subject. Most people making the plunge for the first time trust their fabricator with their life knowing little in any about what they are buying. Does this subject have any data I can provide? No. Just experience. Most of you that know me understand that I like to share my experiences so others can benefit. I blazed my own path and had to discover many of these concepts on my own. Contact me if you need some advice when choosing a roll cage fabricator.
-"Porting" a throttle body can produce less h.p. Ask me how I know.
-Headers produce more h.p. which is contra to most people's belief on this forum. The more gradual a collector the more power you'll start to discover. Most products out there on the market today use a very inexpensive, off the shelf collector that is easier to make and supply. We've found this to be the primary driver in making h.p. Unfortunately this same collector can be the single most expensive part of a header system. Our collectors have ranged from $200 US to $600 JUST FOR THE COLLECTOR. Our COLLECTORS cost (our cost) more than some headers on the market. Want a good S.S. header that makes power? Budget for well over $1,500 US for max power because you'll want to rebuild your entire exhaust system all the way to the exhaust tips.
-Paper air filtration is a superior filtration media when compared to the K&N (or other metal) mesh type filters. We were able to confirm this at Daytona and Homestead which have lots of sand media. Have you ever seen an oil pan full of sand? How about the same oil pan absent of sand when you run a paper filter in the same exact filter location. Interesting enough when I talked to our engineering friends at SpeedSource after the oil pan findings the first thing I was asked was: "what kind of air filter are you running?". It turns out the 3 rotor Grand-Am engines use------------the stock mazda RX-8 paper air filter---no ****. They report a 1 hp loss compared to a metal mesh style.
-A proper alignment of all the various pieces of the AEM/Mazdaspeed intake has a larger impact on dyno numbers than the intake itself. I've seen a quantifyable 5 hp delta between a crappy install and one where you stick a flashlight down in there and align all those little pieces being careful to avoid/reduce the various notches and bends. Air doesn't like to bend and these intakes have lots of opportunity to bend along with bottlenecks or contraints. Spend some time looking at your system. A bandsaw can be your friend when looking for a 1 or 2 more hp (hint, hint)
-The stock electronic Throttle pedal assembly can fail or even worse can be inconsistant. You can confirm this by measuring the actual throttle position signal the pedal sends to the ECM. What might appear to be full throttle with your foot might be something totally different. This is really hard to diagnose. Ask me how I know this.
-A new 2009/2010 Renesis engine makes more power than a 2004-2008 on an engine dyno.
-There is a fair amount of weight variation in stock RX-8 rotors. If you need to replace one it is key that you should have your rotating assembly balanced. We've found in several cases that simple replacement of rotors CAN throw off the balance to be worse than stock. Spend the extra effort/dollars to have your ENTIRE assembly balanced. I can suggest one super great engine builder to do this. For one of our engines he went through 5 rotors to find one that was close to his target weight before balancing the system.
-Last but not least. THERE IS NO REASON TO RUN YOUR N.A. CAR TO 9,000 RPM!!!!!!!! There is no power there. There is less power there. Stupid. Screw the carbon blow out theories. Look at your dyno sheets people. Look at any dyno sheet. Stupid. These motors have rotor wobble at these higher rpms and you can discover this during engine teardown. Power loss. I think you'll find that it is faster/smarter to shift about 8,700 rpm. Do your own research. The next time your run on a chassis dyno try this: Warm up your engine and drive train and start out in first gear. Run through the gears from 1st to the shift to 6th using a 9,000 rpm redline for each shift. Record this entire session in one long, continuous dyno run. Note the dyno graph and where your power curve resides when you shift at 9K. Now repeat this exercise shifting at 8,500 every time or 8,700 everytime and compare to your 9,000 rpm test. You will find that you are operating at higher power when you are lower than 9K or above. Or you can believe that there is power is up there and continue to run your mouth on these forums and be incorrect. Testing is expensive but it's the only way to confirm your assumptions. Take a look at some of our dyno graphs and see where the power falls off.
Happy rotoring and test, test, test.
12-30-2009, 08:57 AM
#98
great info as usual Eric.
Ask me who is running a shop vac bag around their k&n filter? Looks dumb but it is the best I can do for now.
wasnt aware of the FBW TB varience? Wow.
I too have been preaching to stay out of that 9K area. Not only does it not have power--increased centrificul forces are high and the amount of heat generated during that extra rpm is more than people realize.
oil drag on this engine is nowhere like on a recip--so the lighter viscosities will not have a big affect on that. Synthetic oil may give you 1-2 hp but not worth the cost to me.
air intake--bet a lot of people didnt realize what you are saying. not only is the intake important but there are things that can be done in the lim that helps also--casting marks elimination, vdi cross leakage, different timing of the apv (along with certain engine mods), phenolitic gasket, DO NOT POLISH THE INNER PORTS, ensuring the cleaniness of the secondaries etc.
TB porting --you do have to be careful with that--may sure the butterfly remains centered etc.
Keep the airflow to the maf as smooth as possible.
ignition--need better than oem ground to the coils, replace the oem sparkplug wires, timing light is your friend to insure coil is firing at all rpms under load, i like running the hks twin power for a street car
people dont understand the full benefits of a water meth system. if you track (not the pro teams) on a regular basis-i would get one.
exhaust header---right on dude --you are THE MAN here. Reminds me of a expansion pipe kinda that I talked about back in 2004. I talked about it---YOU NAILED IT!
track----- pre mix at least 1 oz/gallon
Is the 09 engine making more power because of better injectors, 3 oilers (maybe better sealing?) increased oil pressures maybe affects dynamic rotor balance?
Wish I had a way to lab test that
Olddragger
Ask me who is running a shop vac bag around their k&n filter? Looks dumb but it is the best I can do for now.
wasnt aware of the FBW TB varience? Wow.
I too have been preaching to stay out of that 9K area. Not only does it not have power--increased centrificul forces are high and the amount of heat generated during that extra rpm is more than people realize.
oil drag on this engine is nowhere like on a recip--so the lighter viscosities will not have a big affect on that. Synthetic oil may give you 1-2 hp but not worth the cost to me.
air intake--bet a lot of people didnt realize what you are saying. not only is the intake important but there are things that can be done in the lim that helps also--casting marks elimination, vdi cross leakage, different timing of the apv (along with certain engine mods), phenolitic gasket, DO NOT POLISH THE INNER PORTS, ensuring the cleaniness of the secondaries etc.
TB porting --you do have to be careful with that--may sure the butterfly remains centered etc.
Keep the airflow to the maf as smooth as possible.
ignition--need better than oem ground to the coils, replace the oem sparkplug wires, timing light is your friend to insure coil is firing at all rpms under load, i like running the hks twin power for a street car
people dont understand the full benefits of a water meth system. if you track (not the pro teams) on a regular basis-i would get one.
exhaust header---right on dude --you are THE MAN here. Reminds me of a expansion pipe kinda that I talked about back in 2004. I talked about it---YOU NAILED IT!
track----- pre mix at least 1 oz/gallon
Is the 09 engine making more power because of better injectors, 3 oilers (maybe better sealing?) increased oil pressures maybe affects dynamic rotor balance?
Wish I had a way to lab test that
Olddragger
12-30-2009, 09:54 AM
#99
04 and still lovin it
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
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Wow
This one post has got to be the the best posts on our cars I've read. The devils in the details.
Thanks
This one post has got to be the the best posts on our cars I've read. The devils in the details.
Thanks
A few interesting assumptions that when tested we found some interesting findings. These findings were the OPPOSITE of what we assumed or would've thought to be true. I share these with everyone so that they can test and enjoy the wonderment of the "aha" moment when the truth is discovered. I wish more people would spend the time to test (not just you Mr. Ash). Most forums have weekend warriors with a few car nut mechanical engineers or seasoned racers who been around the block. Listen a bit more closely to these folks as you'll find they often have better merit in their responses.
-The MazdaSpeed nose produces lift at high speeds. We discovered 5/8" max increase in front nose height at Daytona. Interestingly enough our SpeedSource friends reported better downforce with the 2009 nose. I don't recall exactly however this was above 90 mph and below 140.
-Testing different spark plugs did not gain us any measureable h.p. Often the gains you might see are clouded by the variation inherent in a chassis dyno. A 1% variation in a dyno (99% accuracy) equates to approx. 2 hp on our RX8 You may be looking for less than 2 hp when testing plugs (or different oil weights) and therefore your testing can't truly be confirmed becuase the variation can offset your gains (or losses).
-A zero weight oil will make about 1 measurable hp on the chassis dyno with a Renesis when you run it hot. The NASCAR boys do this and call it a "qualifying oil". We were unable to obtain repeated results on this one. Big V-8 engines developing 400+ hp make it easier to see small hp changes. 5-7 hp is what a close friend who has raced for dozens of years with many championships has confirmed.
-PORTING can be counterproductive. I've confirmed this on a flowbench using more than one effort. Some people believe that "bigger is better". Do some searching on this forum and see just how many people refer to testing using a flow bench and you'll see what I mean. I've found zero. Grinders are cheap. Some DIY guys want to jump it and get to work before understanding the principles of porting. Testing is expensive. Piston motors and rotaries have differing porting philosophies.
-Used Grand-Am Hoosier tires are SLOWER than people think. Some people buy these used tires thinking they are fast. About 5-7 heat cycles and these things fall off. This is one weekend for us and most teams. They may look like they have rubber on them (and they do) however they provide very little grip. I would argue that a used set of Toyo RA1 is faster than a R6 or G-Am compound with more than 10 cycles. Some people think the white lettered "Hoosier" on the outside of the tire is sexy or faster or both. Perception can be a foundation for people's beliefs. For this reason I don't like to sell our used tires. People don't get it. I use to be one of these guys that bought these tires.
-Even the best roll cage race car fabricators produce cars that don't pass race tech inspection. You wouldn't believe the lack of 360 degree welds you'd find when you look closely at cars. Roll cage design and fabrication is a top that most people are TOTALLY foreign too. They think a roll cage is a roll cage is a roll cage. Let the buyer beware. A good roll cage costs about twice what the garage welder will charge you because there is more effort and work involved----not markup. Often a beginner's budget determines the final shop they deal with. Few resources exist for the new guy to learn about this subject. Most people making the plunge for the first time trust their fabricator with their life knowing little in any about what they are buying. Does this subject have any data I can provide? No. Just experience. Most of you that know me understand that I like to share my experiences so others can benefit. I blazed my own path and had to discover many of these concepts on my own. Contact me if you need some advice when choosing a roll cage fabricator.
-"Porting" a throttle body can produce less h.p. Ask me how I know.
-Headers produce more h.p. which is contra to most people's belief on this forum. The more gradual a collector the more power you'll start to discover. Most products out there on the market today use a very inexpensive, off the shelf collector that is easier to make and supply. We've found this to be the primary driver in making h.p. Unfortunately this same collector can be the single most expensive part of a header system. Our collectors have ranged from $200 US to $600 JUST FOR THE COLLECTOR. Our COLLECTORS cost (our cost) more than some headers on the market. Want a good S.S. header that makes power? Budget for well over $1,500 US for max power because you'll want to rebuild your entire exhaust system all the way to the exhaust tips.
-Paper air filtration is a superior filtration media when compared to the K&N (or other metal) mesh type filters. We were able to confirm this at Daytona and Homestead which have lots of sand media. Have you ever seen an oil pan full of sand? How about the same oil pan absent of sand when you run a paper filter in the same exact filter location. Interesting enough when I talked to our engineering friends at SpeedSource after the oil pan findings the first thing I was asked was: "what kind of air filter are you running?". It turns out the 3 rotor Grand-Am engines use------------the stock mazda RX-8 paper air filter---no ****. They report a 1 hp loss compared to a metal mesh style.
-A proper alignment of all the various pieces of the AEM/Mazdaspeed intake has a larger impact on dyno numbers than the intake itself. I've seen a quantifyable 5 hp delta between a crappy install and one where you stick a flashlight down in there and align all those little pieces being careful to avoid/reduce the various notches and bends. Air doesn't like to bend and these intakes have lots of opportunity to bend along with bottlenecks or contraints. Spend some time looking at your system. A bandsaw can be your friend when looking for a 1 or 2 more hp (hint, hint)
-The stock electronic Throttle pedal assembly can fail or even worse can be inconsistant. You can confirm this by measuring the actual throttle position signal the pedal sends to the ECM. What might appear to be full throttle with your foot might be something totally different. This is really hard to diagnose. Ask me how I know this.
-A new 2009/2010 Renesis engine makes more power than a 2004-2008 on an engine dyno.
-There is a fair amount of weight variation in stock RX-8 rotors. If you need to replace one it is key that you should have your rotating assembly balanced. We've found in several cases that simple replacement of rotors CAN throw off the balance to be worse than stock. Spend the extra effort/dollars to have your ENTIRE assembly balanced. I can suggest one super great engine builder to do this. For one of our engines he went through 5 rotors to find one that was close to his target weight before balancing the system.
-Last but not least. THERE IS NO REASON TO RUN YOUR N.A. CAR TO 9,000 RPM!!!!!!!! There is no power there. There is less power there. Stupid. Screw the carbon blow out theories. Look at your dyno sheets people. Look at any dyno sheet. Stupid. These motors have rotor wobble at these higher rpms and you can discover this during engine teardown. Power loss. I think you'll find that it is faster/smarter to shift about 8,700 rpm. Do your own research. The next time your run on a chassis dyno try this: Warm up your engine and drive train and start out in first gear. Run through the gears from 1st to the shift to 6th using a 9,000 rpm redline for each shift. Record this entire session in one long, continuous dyno run. Note the dyno graph and where your power curve resides when you shift at 9K. Now repeat this exercise shifting at 8,500 every time or 8,700 everytime and compare to your 9,000 rpm test. You will find that you are operating at higher power when you are lower than 9K or above. Or you can believe that there is power is up there and continue to run your mouth on these forums and be incorrect. Testing is expensive but it's the only way to confirm your assumptions. Take a look at some of our dyno graphs and see where the power falls off.
Happy rotoring and test, test, test.
-The MazdaSpeed nose produces lift at high speeds. We discovered 5/8" max increase in front nose height at Daytona. Interestingly enough our SpeedSource friends reported better downforce with the 2009 nose. I don't recall exactly however this was above 90 mph and below 140.
-Testing different spark plugs did not gain us any measureable h.p. Often the gains you might see are clouded by the variation inherent in a chassis dyno. A 1% variation in a dyno (99% accuracy) equates to approx. 2 hp on our RX8 You may be looking for less than 2 hp when testing plugs (or different oil weights) and therefore your testing can't truly be confirmed becuase the variation can offset your gains (or losses).
-A zero weight oil will make about 1 measurable hp on the chassis dyno with a Renesis when you run it hot. The NASCAR boys do this and call it a "qualifying oil". We were unable to obtain repeated results on this one. Big V-8 engines developing 400+ hp make it easier to see small hp changes. 5-7 hp is what a close friend who has raced for dozens of years with many championships has confirmed.
-PORTING can be counterproductive. I've confirmed this on a flowbench using more than one effort. Some people believe that "bigger is better". Do some searching on this forum and see just how many people refer to testing using a flow bench and you'll see what I mean. I've found zero. Grinders are cheap. Some DIY guys want to jump it and get to work before understanding the principles of porting. Testing is expensive. Piston motors and rotaries have differing porting philosophies.
-Used Grand-Am Hoosier tires are SLOWER than people think. Some people buy these used tires thinking they are fast. About 5-7 heat cycles and these things fall off. This is one weekend for us and most teams. They may look like they have rubber on them (and they do) however they provide very little grip. I would argue that a used set of Toyo RA1 is faster than a R6 or G-Am compound with more than 10 cycles. Some people think the white lettered "Hoosier" on the outside of the tire is sexy or faster or both. Perception can be a foundation for people's beliefs. For this reason I don't like to sell our used tires. People don't get it. I use to be one of these guys that bought these tires.
-Even the best roll cage race car fabricators produce cars that don't pass race tech inspection. You wouldn't believe the lack of 360 degree welds you'd find when you look closely at cars. Roll cage design and fabrication is a top that most people are TOTALLY foreign too. They think a roll cage is a roll cage is a roll cage. Let the buyer beware. A good roll cage costs about twice what the garage welder will charge you because there is more effort and work involved----not markup. Often a beginner's budget determines the final shop they deal with. Few resources exist for the new guy to learn about this subject. Most people making the plunge for the first time trust their fabricator with their life knowing little in any about what they are buying. Does this subject have any data I can provide? No. Just experience. Most of you that know me understand that I like to share my experiences so others can benefit. I blazed my own path and had to discover many of these concepts on my own. Contact me if you need some advice when choosing a roll cage fabricator.
-"Porting" a throttle body can produce less h.p. Ask me how I know.
-Headers produce more h.p. which is contra to most people's belief on this forum. The more gradual a collector the more power you'll start to discover. Most products out there on the market today use a very inexpensive, off the shelf collector that is easier to make and supply. We've found this to be the primary driver in making h.p. Unfortunately this same collector can be the single most expensive part of a header system. Our collectors have ranged from $200 US to $600 JUST FOR THE COLLECTOR. Our COLLECTORS cost (our cost) more than some headers on the market. Want a good S.S. header that makes power? Budget for well over $1,500 US for max power because you'll want to rebuild your entire exhaust system all the way to the exhaust tips.
-Paper air filtration is a superior filtration media when compared to the K&N (or other metal) mesh type filters. We were able to confirm this at Daytona and Homestead which have lots of sand media. Have you ever seen an oil pan full of sand? How about the same oil pan absent of sand when you run a paper filter in the same exact filter location. Interesting enough when I talked to our engineering friends at SpeedSource after the oil pan findings the first thing I was asked was: "what kind of air filter are you running?". It turns out the 3 rotor Grand-Am engines use------------the stock mazda RX-8 paper air filter---no ****. They report a 1 hp loss compared to a metal mesh style.
-A proper alignment of all the various pieces of the AEM/Mazdaspeed intake has a larger impact on dyno numbers than the intake itself. I've seen a quantifyable 5 hp delta between a crappy install and one where you stick a flashlight down in there and align all those little pieces being careful to avoid/reduce the various notches and bends. Air doesn't like to bend and these intakes have lots of opportunity to bend along with bottlenecks or contraints. Spend some time looking at your system. A bandsaw can be your friend when looking for a 1 or 2 more hp (hint, hint)
-The stock electronic Throttle pedal assembly can fail or even worse can be inconsistant. You can confirm this by measuring the actual throttle position signal the pedal sends to the ECM. What might appear to be full throttle with your foot might be something totally different. This is really hard to diagnose. Ask me how I know this.
-A new 2009/2010 Renesis engine makes more power than a 2004-2008 on an engine dyno.
-There is a fair amount of weight variation in stock RX-8 rotors. If you need to replace one it is key that you should have your rotating assembly balanced. We've found in several cases that simple replacement of rotors CAN throw off the balance to be worse than stock. Spend the extra effort/dollars to have your ENTIRE assembly balanced. I can suggest one super great engine builder to do this. For one of our engines he went through 5 rotors to find one that was close to his target weight before balancing the system.
-Last but not least. THERE IS NO REASON TO RUN YOUR N.A. CAR TO 9,000 RPM!!!!!!!! There is no power there. There is less power there. Stupid. Screw the carbon blow out theories. Look at your dyno sheets people. Look at any dyno sheet. Stupid. These motors have rotor wobble at these higher rpms and you can discover this during engine teardown. Power loss. I think you'll find that it is faster/smarter to shift about 8,700 rpm. Do your own research. The next time your run on a chassis dyno try this: Warm up your engine and drive train and start out in first gear. Run through the gears from 1st to the shift to 6th using a 9,000 rpm redline for each shift. Record this entire session in one long, continuous dyno run. Note the dyno graph and where your power curve resides when you shift at 9K. Now repeat this exercise shifting at 8,500 every time or 8,700 everytime and compare to your 9,000 rpm test. You will find that you are operating at higher power when you are lower than 9K or above. Or you can believe that there is power is up there and continue to run your mouth on these forums and be incorrect. Testing is expensive but it's the only way to confirm your assumptions. Take a look at some of our dyno graphs and see where the power falls off.
Happy rotoring and test, test, test.