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Not referring to you directly, this is all about the OP original topic (thread starter) who said he was to purchased the EMOPs to experiment, anything else is just misguided chatter.
In passing was also mentioned that 'rotary experts' with way more knowledge than any of us would know better than us, well virtually everyone that race rotaries, build rotaries all premix in fuel rather than rely on Mazda's very old virtually unchanged MOP stepper system prior to all new S2 set-up which has far better targeted use with all engine parameters.
Originally Posted by ASH8
Oh FFS,
I have completely disassembled all repeat ALL that can be disassembled with Mazda EMOP system, the EMOP I disassembled way before you joined here showed exactly how this Pump worked and the plungers, springs with base plate and solenoid, in actual fact none of the EMOP parts in this assembly is sold separately only as a complete unit.
How the OCV works (same part from a Diesel Mazda 3), the new Oil Pump (exclusively S2).
I have yet to see or hear of any EMOP failures in the S2 or anyone who has successfully changed this system (which Mazda has never used before in any rotary).
In fact it has been very reliable.
Or anyone who has come up with a better system apart from pre-mix.
Engineering for a car maker is not just the delivery of oil lubrication but also all the other issues associated with direct oil burning like emission regs.
Post away your REAL experience that made your S2 apex and side seal lubrication better than factory.
FFS? Really struck a nerve I guess.
Yikes. Lots of people know more than "we" do, BTW. That goes to my original point, the more important one, is that conversation and discussion gets shut down on this forum way too much, by our resident experts, who should be promoting discussion, not going about flinging crap, and now, profanity. And one is Super Moderator.
My question now: Who Moderates the Moderators, when they become Not So Moderate?
Well, you did quote his post where he clearly states that he has dissasembled a full s2 emop assembly and more
Originally Posted by ASH8
Many years back I posted the disassembly (by me) of my spare EMOP#1 and its plungers, springs, housing oil injectors, switches, driver unit, oil lines etc.
I have every component brand new of the complete S2 EMOP system, in the real world if one takes out or modify any of the ECU/Driver controlled system or any hardware you will get CEL warning lamps as each part is monitored.
I also posted all of the many DTCs associated with this system and the factory manual.
...and proceeded with this...
Originally Posted by kevink0000
Ash,
Taking parts off of a shelf is vastly different than taking one of these apart, to understand it's workings, in situ. Maybe you know that, maybe you don't.
Like Jinx, I think you might need more hands-on experience before you shoot down ideas like this.
which caused several pairs of eyes to roll.
Last edited by peloponisios; 02-28-2022 at 02:27 PM.
Under your own logic then why would you do anything new to the car? It’s not being made yet we still have people building them into race cars and everything else. Your premise seems to be based on the fact it needs to be sold as a kit. Lots of things are made with no intention and f selling.
Juts because it hasn’t been done doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t try. Especially if they have fun doing it.
Just saying you could easily lay out why it’s not worth it or not possible without being a smug *****.
You are one of the most knowledgeable people about these cars I’ve ever seen but I’m sure many areas of your life you are not. Imagine if you got into a new sport or hobby and were treated like that. For instance what if you decide to learn a hobby I’m very knowledgeable in. Kickboxing. You come into on the gym and are asking why can’t I do this. But instead of me explaining it nicely I flattened you just because I’m more knowledgeable than you.
That’s not how we get new people involved.
And even though the car is old I just bought one last year just like many others.
Most of the modifications in real life are designed to be sold as a kit, though. When you get money involved, you can have a lot more talent and resources at your disposal.
It's just good business.
There are some new things that in theory could bring in a lot of benefits and have some precedents, but modding an S2 OMP at this point seems like a lot of work for benefits that are debatable. Comparing it to a 2-stroke is a bit like comparing a lab mouse trial to a human trial: the results are probably similar, but until someone has conducted a well-constructed, scientific experiment, we can't know for sure. And even if it is better than premix, premix's lower cost and effort are good enough for most. It's a better value.
Originally Posted by Snox801
Also I do agree with you on about everything you did say. I’m just asking you to use some more patience with new people.
We really do need more people enjoying the forums. Who knows maybe one day someone with the right money and idea will do something we consider not worth the time and we will all be great full for it.
Just happened to the rs community a year or so ago. Someone took the time to crack the rdu code and make a controller. Gave it away for free basically.
So let’s try and be more polite, or just don’t respond let someone else.
If someone wants to do volunteer work, that's all good, but that shouldn't be taken for granted or be expected from others. My point is that someone else is certainly welcome to try even if they know the rabbit hole they are diving down into, but I would not encourage them if it's not practical and my resources are not at stake. If the "negative people" are the no-fun-allowed inquisition, so be it. It beats having some Interwebz street cred and the other guy out of a lot of money and time to get nowhere.
Originally Posted by Snox801
First when I joined has zero merit.
Second I think you misdirected the conversation.
I never said i had a better way or even thought about trying. As team stated when I first got mine it was not needed. So I never went any further he was right no need and it’s very complex.
I was simply saying that we should be more inviting and encourage people to try. Only person out is them. Guide them if need be but not crap on the idea.
You may have taken one apart doesn’t mean someone can’t take that info and with the right money and engineering make it happen.
Is it worth it for guys like you and I nope.
But for someone with time money and the love of it may. Let them have at it.
That’s all. I tend to agree with you and team n this. But just pointing out how you guys went about it. It was never about your knowledge.
There is one more point I'd like to address: if someone so firmly believes in their idea, negative comments on the Internet would be the last thing to deter them. If they really bother with replying without actually focusing on their project, they would have a perfect answer for everything, or they would take the comments as their fuel to learn.
People who are swayed by the negative comments are people who probably already have doubts about their idea or people who didn't understand enough. They are likely to abandon the idea later anyways, with the difference being that they now have spent money, time, and resources they will never get back.
Originally Posted by kevink0000
FFS? Really struck a nerve I guess.
Yikes. Lots of people know more than "we" do, BTW. That goes to my original point, the more important one, is that conversation and discussion gets shut down on this forum way too much, by our resident experts, who should be promoting discussion, not going about flinging crap, and now, profanity. And one is Super Moderator.
My question now: Who Moderates the Moderators, when they become Not So Moderate?
I know you probably don't mean it but this is a bit leaning on the trolling side of things.
ASH has addressed your "lack of hands-on experience" bit with his experience of taking an S2 OMP apart. If anything I think he has contributed to the discussion with his knowledge even if it's shined in a bit of a negative light. Now you are gonna condemn him over an abbreviation?
Also, an S2 No.1 OMP alone is like US$500 new. Given S2's low volume, finding one in a junkyard is likely not as viable as, say, finding an MZR/Duratec 2.5 engine. As ASH said, break anything inside of it and you are looking at a brand new unit since the parts inside the pump aren't sold separately. Definitely not something I would just cheer someone into for the sake of positive discussions.
Last edited by UnknownJinX; 02-28-2022 at 02:25 PM.
I think you missed my points it’s not about talking them into it. It’s more about how some people talk down to people instead of explaining why it’s a tough road ahead. Nothing im saying is about anything more than some civility.
In general talking down to people should be a negative.
I’m just here to say hey! Let’s be as welcoming as we can. We never know who may want to join our forum. I personally know some people with big pockets and they do things juts because. Hypothetically if they bought an rx8 and decided to do this they have the means to do it. If they get crapped on they may in fact do it but never post about how or why.
That’s all I’m saying. Nothing more.
I tend to agree it’s very tough to beat premix no matter what you do. It’s very cost effective and easy. Hence why I do it.
So I’m in the same thought as you guys. Just have noticed how this forum out of all the ones I’m on can be very grating to some.
This isn’t at any one person either just general.
Well, you did quote his post where he clearly states that he has dissasembled a full s2 emop assembly and more
...and proceeded with this...
which caused several pairs of eyes to roll.
Eye roll or not, my point again is that the naysayers are plentiful on topics like these, and if you read their comments and reasons why they take the views they take, its clear there is limited firsthand knowledge at play, and yet strong opinions. Maybe you see this, maybe you and the eye rollers don't. Taking pictures of parts, while certainly helpful, is not what I am talking about as someone who I would go to for advice about a project like this. There would have to be experimentation on a runner, that is the firsthand experience I mean, and it could be this topic, or any other. He has not done this, and failed or succeeded. Let someone do what they want if they have an idea. Like many, he uses weak arguments to dissuade. I don't think that is right, especially for a moderator of a forum.
This forum, again, is quite insular and judgmental when someone pops up with an unconventional idea, which in reality, is only unconventional to some who tend to be more vocal. I really think I have made my point many times over.
Most of the modifications in real life are designed to be sold as a kit, though. When you get money involved, you can have a lot more talent and resources at your disposal.
It's just good business.
There are some new things that in theory could bring in a lot of benefits and have some precedents, but modding an S2 OMP at this point seems like a lot of work for benefits that are debatable. Comparing it to a 2-stroke is a bit like comparing a lab mouse trial to a human trial: the results are probably similar, but until someone has conducted a well-constructed, scientific experiment, we can't know for sure. And even if it is better than premix, premix's lower cost and effort are good enough for most. It's a better value.
If someone wants to do volunteer work, that's all good, but that shouldn't be taken for granted or be expected from others. My point is that someone else is certainly welcome to try even if they know the rabbit hole they are diving down into, but I would not encourage them if it's not practical and my resources are not at stake. If the "negative people" are the no-fun-allowed inquisition, so be it. It beats having some Interwebz street cred and the other guy out of a lot of money and time to get nowhere.
There is one more point I'd like to address: if someone so firmly believes in their idea, negative comments on the Internet would be the last thing to deter them. If they really bother with replying without actually focusing on their project, they would have a perfect answer for everything, or they would take the comments as their fuel to learn.
People who are swayed by the negative comments are people who probably already have doubts about their idea or people who didn't understand enough. They are likely to abandon the idea later anyways, with the difference being that they now have spent money, time, and resources they will never get back.
I know you probably don't mean it but this is a bit leaning on the trolling side of things.
ASH has addressed your "lack of hands-on experience" bit with his experience of taking an S2 OMP apart. If anything I think he has contributed to the discussion with his knowledge even if it's shined in a bit of a negative light. Now you are gonna condemn him over an abbreviation?
Also, an S2 No.1 OMP alone is like US$500 new. Given S2's low volume, finding one in a junkyard is likely not as viable as, say, finding an MZR/Duratec 2.5 engine. As ASH said, break anything inside of it and you are looking at a brand new unit since the parts inside the pump aren't sold separately. Definitely not something I would just cheer someone into for the sake of positive discussions.
He is a moderator on this forum. As a fairly frequent user of this forum, I feel his tone and the fact that he used a profane abbreviation was inappropriate. Also, more important, the contents of his replies illustrates the very issue I am speaking about.
And guys, for almost the 10th time, the issue for me is not the s2 OMP. This type of crap discussion goes on all over the place around here, with many different topics.
I do have to say that Kevin has a point.
It just takes the right guy to decide to do it. In fact when I raced snowmobiles for two hours f the major factories it often was a guy in a small garage that somehow took the time effort and money to develop something that had the factory stumped. Some people are incredibly gifted with the things they do. They may never sell the idea but would be cool to know some one did it.
So the issue on a thread about the s2 emop is not about the pump itself but rather the tone of some members on a 20 years old forum about a 20 years old product which still has not the cult or classic status the Rx7s have.
Maybe you could post your issues on a more appropriate thread?
Or give it a rest while the world is on the brink of thermonuclear war.
I agree!
I don’t think it was juts this thread. It happens a lot. In fact I don’t mind this thread. Open dialogue is good not matter what. At the end of the day. It doesn’t matter to me that much. I hope everyone feels that’s way. Good debate is never a bad thing.
I personally tend to like my interactions here with many people I don’t agree with. I ever learn a ton of info from them.
I do have to say that Kevin has a point.
It just takes the right guy to decide to do it. In fact when I raced snowmobiles for two hours f the major factories it often was a guy in a small garage that somehow took the time effort and money to develop something that had the factory stumped. Some people are incredibly gifted with the things they do. They may never sell the idea but would be cool to know some one did it.
Again, I have pointed out that if someone firmly believes in the idea, mean comments from the Interwebz will have no impact on their ideology or actions. "So what if no one agrees? I will prove them wrong!"
And while you can come up with an original idea, optimizing it will eventually require some people. There is a guy who made a Freevalve-like system for NA Miata and he put out everything for free, but to make it practical and optimize it will take a lot more work since you would have to tune the valve timing, duration, and lift to maximize the potential of it. Remember that these three variables can now be independently controlled. Given that solutions like turbocharging/supercharging and Honda K swap exist, I am not sure if this will see much more development without at least a very interested tuning team.
It's possible this forum would have more active users if we didn't have to relitigate "Users can discuss mods that are hard or impossible" vs "NO THEY CANT" in every god damn thread.
It's possible this forum would have more active users if we didn't have to relitigate "Users can discuss mods that are hard or impossible" vs "NO THEY CANT" in every god damn thread.
This is what I’m getting at. I know a few who juts gave up on the forum because of that. Especially new owners. As humans we want to feel included and have a group to belong to. Hence why everything has a club.
These cars are out common connections.
We never know what kind of person likes the car and joins. Maybe someone with piles of cash and a brilliant mind.
Now I do understand that even though some are blunt like Team his knowledge is valuable.
I knew very little about this car when I got it and had some wacky ideas also. He explained why they are hard to do and he was correct. Could I do them yep did it make sense when all said and done nope ( my 2.3 ecoboost swap).
Guy may not be everyone’s cup of tea but he makes valid points. Again not my style but doesn’t make him wrong.
It's possible this forum would have more active users if we didn't have to relitigate "Users can discuss mods that are hard or impossible" vs "NO THEY CANT" in every god damn thread.
as opposed to a foul mouthed, godless noob saying YES THEY CAN about something he/she has basically zero understanding about
going to take a wild stab in the dark here and suggest that you probably think nobody ever gets tired of that situation or departs because of it either …
So far I haven't made progress in the mod for the car. It gets driven time to time when I don't have to carry passengers.
The project has been delayed due to three things.
Time - Busy with life demands.
Suitable electric pump that can run reliably. Possible candidate here for good $$$ but not exactly 80 PSI. Close to it but rated for 90w oil, so might be able to push to 80 PSI with lighter oil. https://www.holley.com/products/plum...parts/OP111ERL
High-Temp resistant mount - I started a custom 3D printer to handle that work 2 years ago and got delayed due to moving and all the stuff in life, just now going back to building it.
My main car is E91 wagon with AWD, which itself needed a lot of time and money to refresh to be reliable. So RX-8 which proves to be more reliable at similar age and miles has been taking a back seat, lol.
All Euro cars are FORCED to use Union ran Elring brand gaskets as OE, so they leak and crack by 60k miles warranty is up, or before. Can't compare to Japanese stuff. I put other brands whenever I replace the gaskets on BMW. Fel-Pro, Victor Reinz, whichever not OE aka Elring or super cheap stuff.
Plz expect an update around Jan, maybe, if I don't take another online class soaking up even more time.
Forgot to mention, my used "new" OMP helped me understand what fittings I'd need to run the by-pass. I still have that extra OMP laying around.
Seeing as the Sohn adapter is not S2 compatible and there's no hope of a solution matching the updated oil delivery system, can anyone provide guidance on how S2 owners should ensure the cleanest oil is going into the motor?
I've heard pre-mixing is excessive for daily/canyon driving, and I'd hate to pick up an unnecessary habit. But I did like the idea of the Sohn adapter feeding clean oil only into an engine.
"clean" isn't what you're buying with a Sohn adapter. There's an oil filter in the system, the oil is clean no matter what. If it's clean enough for the bearings, it's clean enough for injection. Setting up a separate injection oil source lets you use different oils for injection and bearings, so you don't have to compromise. You can afford to run a high quality synthetic for your bearings with high change intervals if you're not burning it. You can also pick an injection oil that's better for the cat and ash content than whatever you run in the engine.
Unfortunately there's nothing you can do to series 2 to get the same effect, but it's really not that big a deal. Modern oil is a lot better for injection that what was around when the RX8 and the Sohn adapter were designed. Especially on the cat protection part. So just run a good oil and change often if you must.
Premix doesn't solve the same problem as the injection system. Injection delivers oil to the apex seals only, premix delivers it to side seals and all over the combustion chamber. You could choose a low premix ratio like 200:1 for daily use, but the idea that it's ok for some driving and not others makes no sense, since the amount of premix oil you get is proportional to the amount of fuel injected. Daily driving - relatively little fuel - relatively little oil. Track - lots of fuel - lots of oil. It balances on its own.
If I owned an s2, I would premix at a higher rate, at least 2 oz per gallon for street use, and double that (or more) for track. Yes, that seems like a lot around here. It's not. It's probably barely enough to make a difference, long term. Regardless, it should be done, if you like your car. It will not "hurt" anything, with good oil. Many will disagree. I have no problem with that. I doubt any that disagree have tried this long term. There is groupthink everywhere on the forum.
These engines die mostly due to inadequate oil supply to the "top end". Anyone can see that by looking at teardowns. Its all over this forum, and others.
These engines do not need to begin going downhill at 70-80k miles, and be failing at 100k.
There were plenty of FB and FC cars on the road years ago with stock oil systems, crappy oil formulations, no premix, indifferent maintenance, and over 200k on original engines. The 200k Renesis is a very rare bird. There are many reasons for this, but the biggest one is lubrication quantity. This was Mazda's first OBD2 rotary, and as such, the oil quantity injected was greatly reduced from previous generations. Not by 10% or 20%, but by multiples. The engine also makes more power than previous generations, and has a higher redline, but injects much less oil.
The oil provides cooling and compression as well as lubrication.
New formulation 4stroke oils are much better than what was around when the Renesis was developed, and burn much better, but not better than 2 stoke oil.
The Sohn is excellent. If I owned an s2 I personally would be about making an equivalent for it.
funny how nobody ever hears that it’s never been proven to make any difference at all 🤔
.
I mean, my first RX-8 was an '04 and that's all I did to maintain it. It lasted me eight years before I sold it. Didn't start to really doubt their reliability until I hung out on this forum for a while But if regular oil changes will suffice, and I don't need additional purchases, I'd be more than happy to stick to that lol
"clean" isn't what you're buying with a Sohn adapter. There's an oil filter in the system, the oil is clean no matter what. If it's clean enough for the bearings, it's clean enough for injection. Setting up a separate injection oil source lets you use different oils for injection and bearings, so you don't have to compromise. You can afford to run a high quality synthetic for your bearings with high change intervals if you're not burning it. You can also pick an injection oil that's better for the cat and ash content than whatever you run in the engine.
Unfortunately there's nothing you can do to series 2 to get the same effect, but it's really not that big a deal. Modern oil is a lot better for injection that what was around when the RX8 and the Sohn adapter were designed. Especially on the cat protection part. So just run a good oil and change often if you must.
Premix doesn't solve the same problem as the injection system. Injection delivers oil to the apex seals only, premix delivers it to side seals and all over the combustion chamber. You could choose a low premix ratio like 200:1 for daily use, but the idea that it's ok for some driving and not others makes no sense, since the amount of premix oil you get is proportional to the amount of fuel injected. Daily driving - relatively little fuel - relatively little oil. Track - lots of fuel - lots of oil. It balances on its own.
Hey thanks for the quick and straightforward answer. It does seem there's nothing else to be done to the S2 with its different OMP... I'm sure I'd open a can of worms if I ask what oil you'd recommend (I've read many of those religious threads already, but I'll likely choose 5W-30 for Texas climate since I'll only use this for highway cruising and riding in the canyons or backroads. No trackday plans)
Now I don't mind sounding stupid, but have synthetic oils really made that big of improvements in the past 10-15yrs? I've accepted that I'm getting old, but geez I feel like the Pennzoil Platinum I'm using nowadays doesn't boast much differently than the stuff I used in 2008...
The PP you are going to use is a great oil. Auto and oil manufacturers have worked to get oil related problems solved, especially recently.
Fortunately the current piston engine oils are more in line with the needs of the total loss oiling system in rotaries, than any time I have been involved with them, going back to the mid-80s.
Look up some of the revisions for the SP designation, and you will see how much different oil is compared to SG or earlier.
But again, I preach premix, lots of premix, for your car.
02-28-2022, 09:43 AM
But if regular oil changes will suffice, and I don't need additional purchases, I'd be more than happy to stick to that lol
