No Sohn Adapter for Series 2 Renesis? How about Independent Oil bypass?
 

Yeah, ppl gave up when they heard "It's too hard!" "Not enough to justify!"
That didn't stop me from putting in Real Oil Pressure Meter or sub woofer (without using trunk) into my NC Miata.

​​​​​​Step 1. Unplug the oil feed from engine to pump 1 and put into a bypass metal barb in/out. You can use an inline fuel filter with the same fitting. If you want you can split the oil pressure switch wire and put one here. All they do is ground so if internal oil pressure is lost, you can get warning.

Step 2. Install an electric oil pump with same pressure as OE (possible adjust across RPM range?) And mount it somewhere on engine bay. Get oil to it from container used for Sohn, feed oil from it to the OMP1. Keep the oil pressure switch with OMP1 and connect to ECM, so you know when Sohn tank is empty.

Step 3. Plug the OMP2 outlet. This is to maintain the oil pressure as desired. Most likely, because of the pass through setup, both OMP DOESN'T NEED pressure so much as the engine internal itself.

Optional Step 4. Inside the Sohn tank, put in brake fluid level sensor or oil level sensor fro BMW E9x and similar generation using N5x engines. It can give you a warning light setup for oil low in tank. You'll probably need more wiring and electronic setup deeper than this simple post.


What do you think? Toyota MR-S aka the last Gen III MR-2 used an electric hydraulic pump for steering, due to engine being in the back. We can source that to pump oil to OMPs.

Just ordered S2 OMP pair with hoses! It will help me prototype before going on the engine.
this is definitely going down. Once I get it, I need to get correct fittings and hoses for bypass oil line and feed + return lines for external feed and inline fuel pump to send oil.
Won't be as cheap as S1 Sohn mechanical pump, but should be too expensive.

I like it that you're trying something different but I think I would just modify an s1 oil system and omp to output to s2 housings. I'm not going to knock it as I'm sure you're aware of everything people are going to come in here and say. Make sure you post lots of pictures. Good luck.

Im on S2 car. It doesn't work that way.

There are a lot of potential issues with the S2 design on this. The OMPs are separate and mounted on top of the motor. The front cover is different as well and I'm not sure one could retrofit a S1 front cover to an S2 engine for this reason.

S2 will work just fine with an S1 engine and aftermarket ECU. How is your plan any less complicated than that?

Well, its not my plan. The immediate issue is that the S1 OMP has only 4 outputs but the S2 rotor housings have 3 oil injectors each so we are 2 short right off the bat. The easiest way would be to interrupt the oil supply to the OMPs on an S2 and replace it with something else.

IMO it'd be easier to convert the s1 omp to output to 3 injectors.

not sure the S1 OMP can supply enough flow for 6 injectors. Also, the S2 oil injectors are different.

It's been done..
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...ousing-258182/

The S1 is mechanically actuated by a shaft coupled to the crank which doesn't exist on an S2. Nobody is retrofitting an S1 OMP anywhere.
The S2 EMOPs are electrically actuated but require a pressurized oil source, and can't be gravity-fed like the S1 OMP. Hence the need for a motor to pressurize the oil source in Soravia's design.
There may be 3 nozzles but oil throughput is not necessarily larger than an S1, only better distributed. Also it's not 1 EMOP per rotor, it's 1 EMOP for 4 of the injectors (the outer ones on each rotor) and another for the other 2 (the center ones in each rotor). The S1 OMP supplies oil to 4 injectors all on its own.

I'm curious where this goes.

Well no they aren't retrofitting an S1 OMP but it is possible to pair S2 housings with the simpler design of the S1 oiling system and retain oil injection utilizing all 3 injectors. That's way easier than what's being done here.

Following

I want to buy an S2 and possibly have it converted into a hybrid. Discussions like these are motivators.

no, they’re just bad ideas for people who don’t know any better …
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That's what problem solving is. Refining bad ideas.

not so, that’s failing before you start for not recognizing why you never should have gone down that path in the first place.

a dumb man never learns from his mistakes
a smart man eventually learns from his mistakes
but a wise man, he learns from the mistakes of those who came and went before him …

while you can likely neither see or hear it for yourself, for some it’s obvious that based on such an attempted reply you don’t even recognize what the mistake is, and if you want to call “finding out the hard way” to instead be “claiming you’re solving the problem by refining a bad idea”, then that will be a very unwise mistake indeed.
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Then why are even you here if you're not going to contribute?

He's just here as our token 'edgelord'.....

Just ignore him, he might go away.

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I am contributing, but you refuse the contribution because it’s not what you so dearly want to hear. While you might be dead set on making such mistakes, others who follow later may hopefully be wiser and avoid them.

Seeing as your words suggest you don’t even own an RX8, perhaps you can explain how you consider your words to be a contribution as compared to my own? Perhaps it’s your own lack of understanding that prevents you from either appreciating or understanding the contribution of someone with 16+ years of technical RX8 experience.

Did you not even consider asking a “why” question or two rather than being mistakenly triggered into firing a shot across my bow that way? I can assure you the counter response would have been much different if you had. Yet now; you being someone who quite likely doesn’t even own an RX8, want to accusingly ask me why I’m sailing in these waters? I suppose that says enough in itself to stop here.
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Did Soravia's idea ever go anywhere?

ideas rarely just work; time, money, and effort are required. Get it wrong, engine death. This isn’t a guessing game. Mazda has so much resources invested in this. It’s not a simple “make a guess and voila” scenario. Not to mention all this time since the RX8 was introduced in 2003 there’s *zero* evidence that a Sohn accomplishes anything useful on an S1, let alone an S2. I’ve never had one and wouldn’t waste my resources, but knock yourself out.


it doesn’t work for you, why would it work for me?

if I went away who would be left to steer people away from terrible, pointless advice such as that and try to instead encourage them to push their brain to a higher potential? :dunno:
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I was a hair away from giving this a “Like” until I remembered your previous signature. Appreciate your no holds barred responses.

PLEASE can people STOP posting about Sohn Adapters for SERIES 2 ENGINES as they do not exist and are not needed and will NEVER WORK.

S2 has a completely different electronically controlled MOP (Metering Oil Pump) system Via ECU/PCM with a completely different FRONT ENGINE COVER,
OIL PUMP ASSY, and completely different WIRING LOOMS
Different Plumbing and Flushing of EMOP Control System, Oil Pressure Switch Monitoring that has NEVER been used before on ANY MAZDA Rotary Engine
ever made before.

ALL THAT above is SPECIFIC to SERIES 2 Engines

I suggest you read up more BEFORE you purchase anything or post.

My reference is for 'a' Factory system and NOT for a bespoke one that you THINK is a better unit.

Seriously IF you want to improve Apex Seal lubrication and or Rotors Housing surface lubrication your best and cheapest option is to PRE-MIX in gasoline.

Could not agree more..

It's always the same. Many, many words to scold or admonish, very few to uplift or enlighten. You would do well to reverse that ratio, Team.

Soravia should continue his project if he wants. I very much hope he does. This forum needs more people like him, who are willing to try new things and post about them. I always like to see people on this forum spending time and money to improve these cars. Maybe it pans out, maybe not. The only real problem is not to try, or even discuss. Many times here we can't have a discussion about anything even somewhat controversial. That is a failure of all of us on this forum, in my opinion. The culture of negativity here should be pushed against and defeated by those who do not subscribe to it. It will be a better forum for everyone when that happens.

Anyone arguing against building a robust oil injection system in favor of merely premixing for the life of the car should do some more research.

Advanced 2 stroke engines have been using oil injection since the 60s. There are many reasons for this, not just emissions related, look it up.

Saab went to it on their 2 stroke car engines which would seize on long descents when on premix only. That was with a carburetor, not a fuel injection system with an overrun fuel cut. Give that some thought.

It's like trying to argue weather Holley or Weber carbs make more power, when fuel injection is the norm. Time has passed.

And if you are typing, "There's no evidence..." then please stop and think again, because you have stopped actually thinking if you are waiting for evidence of something to give you permission to proceed. That is also a cowardly way to try to end an argument when you are too lazy to post facts or cite examples.

Too often, the naysayers flood these topics with posts of foolish negativity, and the OP never posts again, and a possible solution or improvement is lost. That is a danger on this forum. People disappear all the time, and we never find out the outcome. Of course, many will say "It didn't work, that's why he's not here anymore, I was right, of course." Maybe so, but maybe that project worked somewhat, or ran out of money or time, and it would be nice to know, but the OP doesn't want to wade again into the swill farm of groupthink on the RX8 Club site. So he goes about his business and never comes back, which, on balance, is usually a wise move, unfortunately.

There are rotary guys who know much, much more than any of us, and they will NEVER come on here. Why is that I wonder? All the noobs? I don't think so...

Why, well it has all been said before, perhaps people should take the time to actually search and read back.
This is the only dedicated RX-8 forum of substance.

Majority of members on here are not looking for bespoke engineering on a subject done to death with very little to no beneficial outcome.

The case in point about this thread shows yet again that modifying a substantial factory upgrade to the all new S2 EMOP system will only
give you grief.
Say it again, everything associated with this simple but complex system (EMOP) are monitored by ECU/PCM, EMOP Driver and DTC's
(Diagnostic Codes) that will throw CEL light or separate Oil Pressure warning light on car dashboard and if ignored will then put the car into LIMP Home Mode.

Obviously we cant stop owners wanting to fiddle, some of us here try to stop members going down rabbit holes, don't want to take the advice is fine too, but
ask yourself why so many go to lengths to say what they are doing and buying (EMOP system all new parts are well over $2000) to re-invent something in excitement
but then rarely come back with any substance about the task in hand probably because what they attempted failed.?

I doubt the S2 ECU will know or care where the oil comes from, as long at it is present at pressure. The S1 limp mode can be avoided after pump modification, I am sure the s2 can be done as well, given some time to understand the system.

One man's rabbit hole is another man's project. Your timing couldn't have been more perfect.

Clearly you do not understand this S2 system, as I said the ECU works in conjunction with the two separate EMOPs the separate EMOP Driver Hardware Unit, the separate Oil Supply and Control Solenoid on the front Timing Cover which also actuates the cycling of injector nozzle and the supply lines flushing/cleaning of, and the specific Oil Pressure Switch secured on EMOP1.
The S2 system is way more than just knowing oil supply/pressure.

And there you go.

IIRC there were only about 17k S2 RX-8 sold globally, which is about a sixth or seventh of S1's total sale. Now I don't claim to know much about this whole subject matter, but I know that there aren't a lot of people who are willing and/or have the resources to attempt this in the first place, and your potential customer base for a commercialized kit is just not there. Doesn't help that the effect of a SOHN kit is not proven, and I have also read that S1's SOHN kit can create issue when you are driving the car hard because now you have gravity fed oil instead of the pressurized oil in the sump.

Most of the carbon on the rotor surface and other parts is from gasoline itself. You can tell because engines run on E85 are squeaky clean.

Kevink, I hate to say this but if you aren't paying for a research like this, it's hard for an individual or even a couple of DIYers to get anywhere. When you used that example for 2-stroke engines, remember that A. we are talking about professional engineers who do this for a living developing an engine with a budget and good amount of other resources from their company and B. a rotary engine isn't a 2-stroke piston engine. I remember just discussing fluid dynamics and flow analysis with my engineering buddies a couple of days back and how even simple projects are very taxing on our computers. Car manufacturers have supercomputers at their disposal for that stuff to optimize their designs.

No, I haven't taken one apart, and I assert neither have you. Without doing this, how do you know? Answer: you don't. Neither do I. So, leave the man who wants to undertake this work to do it. That is how we learn things. I think it is valuable to understand the systems on the car in the best way possible, and not look at it like a "black box". Someday I might own an S2 and I would appreciate those who add to the knowledge base, just like the turbo guys with their projects. Not my cup of tea, but should I tell them to stop at once, they are wasting their money and time? And a lot of money and time gets spent over there. Let them do it. Similarly, let someone modify the S2 OMP if they wish.

Jinx,

I disagree with almost everything you have posted.

Many great projects are started in a garage by one or two guys on a shoestring. There is a device you mention you use everyday that was developed initially in a garage by some guys with more time than money.

A rotary relies on a total loss lubrication system, like a two stroke. The similarities are much greater than the differences, especially with regard to the topic at hand. I am not very sure why you brought up piston vs rotary here.

The e85 comment is way off, I will leave that to you to find out.

And since car manufacturers have supercomptuers and superengineers at their disposal, we should not deem try to understand and possibly improve what they have done? That is impossible for us?

The s1 pump gravity starvation issue has been challenged and , in my mind, debunked. I can go into detail if you like, but the info is all on here. I just posted something about this today, in fact.

The bottom line, again is, more development at the grass roots level, is better than less. Especially for a relatively low production volume car like the s2. If someone wants to tackle this, again, why try to shut him down? Isn't it better to give some meaningful contribution to his end goal? Or at least stay silent if you disagree and don't see the value in his pursuit.

If a kit gets developed, then fine. If not, and the road to failure or success is noted here and we are all the better for it. Who can disagree with that?

Again,
Nothing should be deemed too complex to figure out, and dismissed.
It should be understood well around here, like the S1 system is, for the most part. Anyone who wants to work at it should be given a pat on the back.

That’s a perception from your own position opposing my view. In other words; you might question if perhaps you’re instead just wise in your own puffed-up self conceits.

Those words against me only demonstrate a man stumbling around in darkness. Because my words are uplifting when they keep someone from destroying an engine they can’t afford to replace, having not taken heed and considering fully the path being embarked upon.

There’s nothing uplifting about being fed the false hopes of vanity, pride, and arrogance and then having your soul crushed when the sun melts the wax-bonded feathers and you fall and tumble back down to the dust from whence you came forth.
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Reposted without comment. None needed.

I understand that I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to technical stuff, but again, I am not sure if the similarity is to the point that you could slap a 2-stroke oil injection system into a rotary and it will work fine.

Here is my issue with your mentality: if it's your money and resources at stake, you understand the risks, and you want to pursue it, that's all good. It's your stuff, do whatever you wish with it. There is absolutely no reason why I should stop you.

But in my view, encouraging a project without making others aware of the risk and the low reward, or at least just what we know/what we don't know/theories, that's extremely irresponsible for you to encourage the person to take on the project. Again, if you are backing the other person up financially for a project like this, I will shut my gobs, and I think people will be eager to see what comes out of it. If one day you indeed get an S2 and do it, then yeah, we will eagerly see what you come up with.

Put money where your mouth is my point here. I don't think people are discouraging others just for the sake of negativity or we don't want to have fun, but we don't want to watch people burn through money and time without realizing what they are into. That stuff doesn't just grow on a big old tree.

While there are certain things you can improve on nowadays, again, it requires resources and unless it's some interior piece that can be 3D printed or just machine work, then yes, you are gonna need a team of people with a budget and resources behind it. Just something like tuning an engine requires a competent shop with knowledgeable people, a dyno, and accepting the risk of something blowing up. This isn't the 1960s anymore, it's the 2020s. You need the tech to get anywhere.

Like actually, give what Team said above a think.

FIFY, because a pat on the back on the Internet doesn't mean much for that type of research and work, unfortunately.

Jinx,

I'm going to spend a bit more time responding to your posts on this, and then I will have to stop. I don't think you are reading or comprehending well what I am saying.

I am not saying to retrofit 1960s tech oil injection. I am saying oil injection on 2 strokes is proven superior since the 60s, to premix on engines used with varying throttle settings and loads. (street engines) Most of the guys who post about it not being significant enough to matter don't have enough 2t experience outside of the "rotary world" to know better.

To modify the s2 system will not require a new front cover, CNC work, or any other advanced, expensive type of research. It will require trial and error, but to come in and say "Dont do it yer gonna blow yer motor!" is nonsense. It can be done in someone's garage, like most of the modifications and builds on this forum.

I don't see how the money thing applies here. Or me being irresponsible. Again, I don't think you understand well where I am coming from.

I believe you are a generally good, thoughtful guy, but with limited hands-on experience. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I am not meaning any disrespect. I will say that again, I mean no disrespect.

I think you should take a couple of semesters of auto mechanics at the Canadian version of a Vo-Tech school, and see how guys who actually do the work day to day complete their tasks, and do some of it yourself. I think it will be an eyeopener for you, that will help you with your current and future cars, and your engineering pursuits, and you will find very, very interesting and engaging. When I was in college, I minored in auto mechanics, (primarily to gain access to tools and the garage, but got massively schooled on what I didn't know.) and was taught by shop owners who came in in their coveralls, taught for couple of hours, and then went back to their shops. Those guys knew their stuff, without being arrogant. In fact, the older they were, the more humble they seemed to become. Also, they didn't simply replace parts until they found the solution, they diagnosed and would troubleshoot. Very good skills to have in any pursuit, mechanical, technical or otherwise.

I am a bit harsh in my remarks, but again, my point is that an innovation like this comes from real people who are looking for some return of some kind. If they aren't, well, they would have to be pretty well off, and the progress is likely going to be slow as a side gig. The problem is that there just isn't enough return for most people to mess with this at this point; the reasons have been repeated ad nauseam.

The 1960s comment isn't directed at 2T oil injection, it's more directed at the fact that you have to understand the technology behind something before you use a drill press on something, especially anything involving electronics, which the S2 injection incorporates. This is what, I would imagine, holds anyone back from attempting.

And even you said trial and error, which means that something can go wrong in the process. Now it probably won't cost an engine, but it is a possibility when you are messing with the lubrication system and also ECM. Even if it's just some pieces of machined aluminum, that's some money and time lost. It's kind of like a dyno session. You can certainly minimize the risk if you know what you are doing and find competent help, but realize that the risk of an engine blowing up is there, so be prepared for that.

Your assessment of me is pretty fair, I will accept that. I know you mean well, but just understand that innovation, for the most part, will have to have a valid business case behind it for it to get anywhere. Things start in the garage because these guys want to sell them to people at some point. Sure, some people are not looking for returns, but that should not be taken for granted or expected. Again, not going to stop anyone from trying, they just need to accept what they are getting into.

Well as usual your assertion is wrong, contrary to your wisdom I actually own an S2 and actual have posted before ALL the picture's of the physical parts I have (own) in my own genuine Mazda parts store.
Many years back I posted the disassembly (by me) of my spare EMOP#1 and its plungers, springs, housing oil injectors, switches, driver unit, oil lines etc.
I have every component brand new of the complete S2 EMOP system, in the real world if one takes out or modify any of the ECU/Driver controlled system or any hardware you will get CEL warning lamps as each part is monitored.
I also posted all of the many DTCs associated with this system and the factory manual.
So rather live with your fantasy get with the real world and post from experience rather than thoughts and good luck to the plentiful code breakers on here.
This OP thread is close to 18 months old with no reporting back from 'his purchase' of a new EMOP.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...7a2426ecdc.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...b9c5076723.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...cf8194e3d2.jpg

Ash,

Taking parts off of a shelf is vastly different than taking one of these apart, to understand it's workings, in situ. Maybe you know that, maybe you don't.

Like Jinx, I think you might need more hands-on experience before you shoot down ideas like this. The point is to not shoot down ideas, so that the knowledge base of the forum is enhanced. To you, it's a black box, to someone else, not so much.

And I will also add this:
Thank you very much for posting the pix and info to the forum. I am sure whoever takes this project on and completes it will have found it useful. It has enhanced the value of the forum.

I have to agree with Kevin on this. This forum needs to be more inviting. Or at least help explain why it’s difficult to do.
Team has helped me several times with why. And at the end yes things I wanted could be done, but I moved into a different direction. Maybe though with more encouragement from the forum I would have moved forward and put more money than it was worth. Doing things differently is very fun for me and worth the extra money.
I really wish my uncle still was capable of what he could in his youth. He was one of the most brilliant auto engineers of his day.
He was always able to figure out complex issues. In fact he did a ton of development on rotory engines at sealed power.
One thing is correct it’s the money. He had access to anything and everything even for personal projects.
Anyway what I’m trying to say is I’ve also been steered clear of tests and things I’d like to try. Some I may in the future. Let’s not assume we know anyone’s depth of pockets or what they are capable of. Let’s start just see where it takes them.

as was stated, with the prospect of little-no reward if you do succeed and the more likely possibly of not succeeding, then why go there?

premix is a hassle, but is successful and low cost.

so it’s easy to espouse words and grandiose ideas, but not quite so easy and not so grandiose when it comes down to the reality of the rubber meeting the road.

and some people are still completely blind or ignoring the fact that not just Mazda but many people like theirselves all said and thought the same thing for a few decades now, yet here we are still to this day … not even saying you can’t get there, but if and when you finally do; then what?

the Renesis ceased production 10 years ago and most likely is the end of the line. You have nothing better to do or pursue with what short time a physical life on this world amounts to (a drop of water among all the oceans of this earth combined) then have at it … :dunno:

or you could just be practical, but if anything was proven here it’s that my insistence for you to seek the practical path is a guarantee for affliction and condemnation by those insisting otherwise. I don’t come in here with the intent to beat on them; the power for them to know and perceive can only come from a source much higher above and greater than me.

I only try to dissuade others before they fall into that pit and then become unable to free themselves from it. My words are only that; words, as are the many, many others. They indeed are no boundary that prevents anyone from doing as they so please. I refuse to be your scapegoat. Please choose another path for making excuses.

Let those with the eyes to know; see!, and those with the ears to perceive; hear!
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Under your own logic then why would you do anything new to the car? It’s not being made yet we still have people building them into race cars and everything else. Your premise seems to be based on the fact it needs to be sold as a kit. Lots of things are made with no intention and f selling.
Juts because it hasn’t been done doesn’t mean someone shouldn’t try. Especially if they have fun doing it.
Just saying you could easily lay out why it’s not worth it or not possible without being a smug prick.
You are one of the most knowledgeable people about these cars I’ve ever seen but I’m sure many areas of your life you are not. Imagine if you got into a new sport or hobby and were treated like that. For instance what if you decide to learn a hobby I’m very knowledgeable in. Kickboxing. You come into on the gym and are asking why can’t I do this. But instead of me explaining it nicely I flattened you just because I’m more knowledgeable than you.
That’s not how we get new people involved.
And even though the car is old I just bought one last year just like many others.

Also I do agree with you on about everything you did say. I’m just asking you to use some more patience with new people.
We really do need more people enjoying the forums. Who knows maybe one day someone with the right money and idea will do something we consider not worth the time and we will all be great full for it.
Just happened to the rs community a year or so ago. Someone took the time to crack the rdu code and make a controller. Gave it away for free basically.
So let’s try and be more polite, or just don’t respond let someone else.

Oh FFS,
I have completely disassembled all repeat ALL that can be disassembled with Mazda EMOP system, the EMOP I disassembled way before you joined here showed exactly how this Pump worked and the plungers, springs with base plate and solenoid, in actual fact none of the EMOP parts in this assembly is sold separately only as a complete unit.
How the OCV works (same part from a Diesel Mazda 3), the new Oil Pump (exclusively S2).

I have yet to see or hear of any EMOP failures in the S2 or anyone who has successfully changed this system (which Mazda has never used before in any rotary).
In fact it has been very reliable.
Or anyone who has come up with a better system apart from pre-mix.
Engineering for a car maker is not just the delivery of oil lubrication but also all the other issues associated with direct oil burning like emission regs.

Post away your REAL experience that made your S2 apex and side seal lubrication better than factory.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...73c08a91a9.jpg

First when I joined has zero merit.
Second I think you misdirected the conversation.
I never said i had a better way or even thought about trying. As team stated when I first got mine it was not needed. So I never went any further he was right no need and it’s very complex.
I was simply saying that we should be more inviting and encourage people to try. Only person out is them. Guide them if need be but not crap on the idea.
You may have taken one apart doesn’t mean someone can’t take that info and with the right money and engineering make it happen.
Is it worth it for guys like you and I nope.
But for someone with time money and the love of it may. Let them have at it.
That’s all. I tend to agree with you and team n this. But just pointing out how you guys went about it. It was never about your knowledge.

Not referring to you directly, this is all about the OP original topic (thread starter) who said he was to purchased the EMOPs to experiment, anything else is just misguided chatter.
In passing was also mentioned that 'rotary experts' with way more knowledge than any of us would know better than us, well virtually everyone that race rotaries, build rotaries all premix in fuel rather than rely on Mazda's very old virtually unchanged MOP stepper system prior to all new S2 set-up which has far better targeted use with all engine parameters.

All good. Hard to pick that stuff up correctly when written. Sorry about that. Happens
Again I agree with you just let it pump and I feed a bit extra premix on top juts because.