I did a quick search on the subject but couldn't find anything directly related. If this has already been discussed in length then I'd be happy if someone could post a link of that thread. And we can close this one.

With that being said...What is the advantage of having coilovers vs shocks and springs? Is it just simply adjustability or are coilovers superior to a sport tuned shock and spring set-up performance wise?

Just a little background. My 8 is my daily driver, right now I don't have any mods but I plan on doing some in the future after I return to the US. I want to start with suspension first because I plan on taking my baby to a track soon and from what I've been reading on this board that's where I should start first.

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, Thanx.

 

The adjustability is huge, especially if you're doing other suspension mods and going to the track. Usually, the springs and dampers in the coilovers are designed to work together, so you know they're a good match. With separate springs and shocks, you sometimes don't know how well they're going to work together.

 

Thanks for the info. So would you suggest the SR coilover suspension with tower braces and sways over the Mazdaspeed full suspension package? I figure that with the Mazdaspeed set-up, it's a given that it'll work together. I just need to know whether or not it's worth buying a coilover system over a tuned spring/strut set-up. Adjustability sounds like a good quality to have but is it worth the extra money? I'm kinda new at suspension mods so bear with me. Any extra advice would be great.

 

if you can afford coilovers, go that route

 

I've got a set of JIC Magic coil-overs, they work great on the car but it took a fair amount of time and effort to get the ride height, spring preload, and damping set correctly. I should also warn you that it is also possible to screw up the settings and actually make handling worse than stock. If you are up to the challenge and have the extra cash to blow I'd say go for it.

If you are looking for an easier and cheaper upgrade path I'd suggest doing a matched set of springs, sway bars, and a set of Koni adjustable shocks. In my opinion this setup would come very close to matching a set of coil overs without any of the headaches of dealing with ride height and spring preload. Plus it should be about half of the price.

The only catch is that I have not seen anyone actually selling the Konis but I know that they are out there as I have personally seen them on a couple of cars. If you are interested, I can ask the owners where they got them.

 

I also have the JICs and agree with Speed that the initial setup takes a bit longer, but the adjustability makes up for it. If you do get coilovers, make sure the body length is adjustable so you don't give up any suspension travel when you lower the car. And with the stiffer spring rates I run the stock sway bars and body movement is well controlled.

 

I have to agree with all of the above. I had lots of noise with my last car when I put in coilovers. Have you guys had any extra noise problems with your JICs?

I was thinking that I'd try either the mazdaspeed coilovers or the regular setup, but I'll probably wait until the warranty runs out.

 

Coil-overs are for race cars. Unless you have alot of time to get everything right, as well as scales to get the wheel weights correct, they'll drive you nuts. Also if you don't get all the lands locked together tightly, they'll change. With coil over and adjustable shocks you just put about 2 thousand variables into the handing of your car. The car in my avatar has triple adjustables with 12 positions on each (as well as three sets of valving) and I have six sets of springs. I've also been working on a three inch thick notebook for about 8 yrs now, for 7 tracks I run at...............the variables are : 12 x 12 x 12 x 3 x 3 x 6.......on each wheel. Thats 373,248 combinations of set-up, not counting wheel weight cross combinations / front-rear combinations or tire pressures.
Unless you're planning on some serious competition, I'd stick with a well put together set by pro's. I'm going Mazda Speed for mine, but it's your car.

 

Wow Kwullen that's something serious!!! Are you in Amuetuer race leagues or are you already in the pros?

Speed Racer: I am definetly interested. If I can get something that will perform as well as coilovers at half the price that's usually always the way to go.

So for all those with the coilovers. Does the added benefit of having this system justify the time, money and trial and error that you had to endure for the perfect ride height? So far it seems like unless I plan on being a serious track star I should probably stick with the spring/shock set-up. Also, how does it compare to other 8's you've been in that only have the spring/shock set-up?

I'm not too, too worried about price. When I get back I'll have a little bit of deployment money to burn so I wanna spend what I don't invest on my baby. Plus I've always liked to live by the theory of you get what you pay for. I already bought the car. There's no need in me ruining it because I decided to be a cheapster. :p

Again thanx everyone for the input.

 

Guys,
Thanks for all the info also. I do Road Atlanta track days and I have finally gotten to the point in which I believe I can drive faster than the current suspension will let me. I am stock except for RB sways and endlinks.
Question-- one turn# 12 is a fast downhill neg chamber sweeper with a small dip a little after the apex. My front end wants to get a little floaty(speeds approx 90-95). Would Koni shocks only, be sufficent for that problem or would I need springs and the shocks?
Question 2- hard braking from approx 124 to 70 in a compressed zone makes the rear end a little squirrely. Same question. Shocks or shocks and the springs? The rest of the track is ok. This car transitions wonderfully! I do get a good bit of suspension compression on some turns but the car adapts great!
thanks guys! By the way go to the South east thread and then the road atlanta thread search through all the pages and you will find GREAT movies and pictures by Silvereight
Olddragger .

 

It depends on how you set it up. If I back off on the pre-load and damping the ride is as quiet as stock and quite a bit softer too. Now when I set it up for track use I can hear and feel every irregularity in the pavement.

 

I'm sure that Kwullen has more experience tuning suspensions and can give you better advice than I but here is my take.

I'd suggest going with both springs and shocks. If you just try to use shocks alone, with the damping maxed out, you will most likely wear them out prematurely.

By the way, I've been watching the other thread and it looks like you guys had a blast at Road Atlanta. I wish I could have joined you.

 

Olddragger,
Turn 12 is fun, isn't it? Not as fast as it was before they changed the track. I'd do both springs and shocks. You should be doing 12 flat on the new track so the front is getting light because the stock rears are soft on both springs and shocks. Better shocks are going to have alot more rebound stiffness which won't let the car float around as much, at either end. More rebound on the rear shocks will let the car rotate faster on turn in but the trade-off is.....faster rotation. Make sense?
Question #1 and 2 are directly related for that reason. The squirrellyness (is that a word?) on hard braking will not go away with springs or shocks, it comes from the phenominal stock brakes on the 8. You have very little weight on the rear tires when standing on the whoa pedal. You just have to learn to hang with it on steering input to keep the rear tires behind the fronts, and realize it will get looser with stiffer shocks, as EVERYTHING WILL HAPPEN FASTER. Also, apply the brakes first, then rapidly increase pedal pressure. This will keep the car much more stable than stomping the brakes at the last possible second. A fast lap comes from average speed, late braking is the least effect on lap times, smoothness in every input is the most. There are no turns I trail brake at Road Atlanta. Throw the anchor early enough, in a staight line, get the car in the right gear and settled and when you can turn in with your foot buried on the throttle, you're doin it right.
The turn 2 through 5 section at Atlanta gives me a woody every time I get it right. What a ride!

Are you guys doing any lapping days at Roebling? I live in the Amelia Island area and Roebling's 2 hrs flat from my front door. I'd love to eat my new S03 Bridgestones.

 

I'm going to chime in and ask a few questions as I'm wrestling with what I want out of my suspension.

Specifically, my car is more road going and maybe a bit of autocross here and there. So I don't see the need for coilovers. But I do want to stiffen the ride a bit.

1. Do any of you see any issue with replacing springs onto OEM shocks - such as Racing Beat's (~20% stiffer) or Tanabe's (~20-30% stiffer)? Won't this eventually overwhelm the OEM shock?

2. Is it that important to stick with one company to achieve balance? For example, could I not mix and match between Racing Beat and Tanabe? Or could I use the MS spring/shock non-adjustable combo with Tanabe sway bars?


Thanks for the input.

 

Hey olddragger, or anybody really, are the stock wheels and tires good enough for the track or should I look into upgrading those as well? If I do need to upgrade what do you recommend. Like I said I'm kinda new to this so I'm trying to gain as much info as possible. Thanks again for the past info and future inputs. I can't wait to get a track.

 

Red Devil,
Please don't take me as some kind of expert. Formula cars are formula cars, not door cars and I've never seriously raced a door car. With that said, the balance on the RX8 handling is the most impressive of any street car I've driven, no I haven't driven every car in existence, but I would be VERY careful mixing and matching anything with springs and shocks. Maybe trying MS springs and shocks and someone else's sway bars would be okay, as long as you don't mix and match different peoples front and rear swaybars. Now, that being said, you can mix and match whatever you like as long as you understand you'll need alot of testing to find the balance you want and what fits your driving style.
I don't think the OEM shocks would wear overly fast with 20~30% stiffer springs, however, going the same increase in stiffness front and rear will change the balance. You may want to check the percentage increase, fr/rr that MS did with their suspension kit, but even that is tricky as the fr/rr difference is not linear as spring rates increase. For example I started my formula ford at 260 lb fr/250 lb rr.
For smooth tracks, as Road Atlanta, I'm now at 425 lb fr/510 lb rr. You can see that in order to maintain the balance on the car, the rear spring rate increases faster than the front. To get some idea of the ride quality thats 1870 lbs per one inch compression on the whole car that only weighs 1100 lbs, with me in it. My formula ford is 48% front/52% rear on weight distribution which is fairly close to the RX8's 50/50.
I'm still of the opinion that if you are not going to seriously race your car and don't have a small fortune for testing, buy a complete set from someone who has worked it all out. If you want to change the characteristics of the car to fit your own driving style, you can make slight changes from there. If the same team that developed the stock 8 also did the MS set up, I'm sold. They know what they're doing and you can be pretty sure everything will fit and work.

 

Blacklist,
First, I think I read in another one of your posts that you are being deployed overseas. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your service to our country. We all owe you more than we can ever repay. Damn, there's no "salute" emoticon.
To the fun stuff..............your stock wheels are fine for the track, strength wise, but they're fairly heavy. Unsprung weight, or the weight of all the parts going up and down with suspension travel is important. It is very important in determining how well your shocks can keep the rubber on the ground, and rubber on the ground is EVERYTHING. The OEM tires are "ok" but nothing special. They do seem to have broken loose very gradually and predictably and that's important in learning the feel of the car at speed. Usually, the more sticky your tires are, the more radical they are in crossing the line from holding to sliding. Guardrails are REALLY bad for your paint job. I know everyone on the forum seems to have their own favorite tire, as it should be. I upgraded to BS- S03's in 245/40/18 and have been quite happy with them in spirited street usage.
Believe me, if you do much track time with your car, you'll have the opportunity to buy LOTS of tires! So, try 'em all, that's the only way to really know what YOU like best. Go for stick and predictability on track tires, I wouldn't worry about wet traction because nobody's paying you one red cent to run around that track, so if it rains, go home. Those little drops falling out of the sky multiply your chances of parking against something hard by really big factors.
I'm seriously considering doing some track stuff with my 8, my daughter's college program has my racing program on hold, and I'm planning on a different set of wheels and tires just for the track. 17's instead of 18's may be the way to go. It gives you alot of things at once. Less cost, lower ground clearance, lower gearing, lighter wheels/tires, etc., etc., and you get all these things by just changing four wheels at the track.

 

I got it:D

Thank you from me as well.

 

Thanx for the info. Haha that was kinda funny about the gaurdrails. I'll try to minimize those chances by going to a driving school b4 I start doing anything real serious. I had no idea that wheels and tires made that much of a difference in the way the car will handle and corner. I thought it was all due to your suspension. Guess it goes to show that I still have a lot to learn. I'll do a search and see if there has been any discussion on this. Thanks again for your help guys.

 

I just picked up the Tein Basic - there's NO adjustment there - simply ride height - and it comes at preset heights already anyways.

Picked them up cuz I couldn't find any shocks to match with the Tein S-Tech Springs, and I didn't want to go putting springs on stock shocks. $711 shipped to my door. I'll let you know how they ride/feel when they go in this week.

 

Yea, please post updates. $710 shipped for a set or coilovers sounds good. I was leaning toward the Mazdaspeed set-up but I'll hold off a little and wait for your updates. Not like I'm going anywhere anytime soon... :p . Where did you pick those up at? This is my first time hearing about them. Has anyone already started a thread detailing ride quality, performance and feel on these, so I can start reading?

 

They are all coilovers, some are just ajustable...

 

Cretinx, any updates you could share at this time?

 

Kwullen,
Its been a while since I obviously have read this thread.
I appreciate the input and see the wisdom in what you say. Road Atlanta is great! We have a blast with these awesome cars. I agree no trail braking at that track--line/balance it up and floor it! Their is one characteristic(sic) about this car I have discussed in another tread I want to mention here. When you are flat out and approaching turn 10A(where i get that squirrely rear end lol) you will discover as you breathe off the throttle an accleration surge at about 90% throttle. It's enough to surprise you and you do have to make some fast adjustments. I found its actually NOT better to lift smoothly there. Abrupt lift -smooth brake instead. It is more apparent on that turn than others for some reason. Yes, if you can get the flow trough turn 1(80+mph) down to 3nd in turn 2 and acclerate all the way to the entrace to the esses--lift a little and then floor it through the esses in 3nd you have redlined at the perfect spot to lift, apex then a little wide over the top(not on rough) and then turn 6 is SICK! Then the party is over with the monster turn 7. I actually pull car lenghts on other cars from turn 2 through turn 6. Then the power boys take over.
Ok shocks and springs it is. Got to find a matched set, guess the only ones out are Mazdaspeed.
Oh I run the Potenza's. They will heat up on ya and blister, especially the left front. Hint-- save your worn out ones that have about 3/32's thread left and use them for your track day. They are good tires but need to be worn to work well. I run 36-38lbs hot all the way around. Hope we can see you there the next time. Although you probaly can outdrive us all we will have fun chasing ya! We are turning laps in the 1:90's with stock tires
olddragger

 

oh by the way, I'll mention that track to our group we are always looking for fun.
OD