Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

I wanted to start this thread because I am getting a lot of good feedback from those that have purchased Racing Brake pads and a lot of PM's about people asking me about which compounds/series is right for them.

I also wanted to see which applications you were using and what you were doing with them, what you liked, disliked so that others would be easier to make decisions for themselves.

I am also making a commitment to Guarantee Stock of all Hawk and Racing Brake Pads to be in stock and ready to ship, I have at least 5 sets of pads of each series at all times.


This was one of my customers original Problems from a month ago:


This was his PM response from yesterday:

And Yes I would put that "goop" to reduce squeal


Post up your experiences with what Racing Brake pads you had and liked or disliked.

kinchu007

iTrader: (1)

If you have $$$ then Endless CC-R

If you are on a budget (like most racers) then Carbotech XP12/XP10 combo

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

^I'm pretty sure this was a thread to compair the different compounds of Racing Brake pads....Not to compair every brake pad on the market...

justjim

Yeah he means Racing Brake pads not racing brake pads. The first one is a brand name from www.racingbrake.com the second one is a type of use specified.

avanti_racing08

ok would would you suggest for a Spirted daily driver, i will need new pads and rotors after this upcoming rally

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

If you are a spirited driver and you are looking for some strong street pads with a lot of bite the ET800's would be the way to go.

EricMeyer

I think I might be qualified to answer this question.

In 2008 our team moved from running Carbotech's (which I had run for a few years on a Spec Miata with great results) to Hawks. Chris Whitworth (formerly the Motorsports Manager of Hawk) was looking for a Koni Sports Car Challenge Series team to test products and to sponsor. Our team and our two RX8's partnered with Hawk with a racing sponsorship and we began testing compounds in early 2008.

Car facts:

-2,700 lb dry weight
-225 tires on 9" wheels running G-Am Hoosiers (same compound as the R6)
-VERY stiff front bar(s)
-Typcial 500-600 lb. front spring rate and approx. 100 lb. lower rear.
-3.5" min right height measured at the rear of the front subframe
-Koni 2812 shocks
-Stock brake calipers, Stock rotors, S.S. lines running Motul 600 brake fluid
-No front brake cooling ducts

I've provided these facts because ONE brake pad doesn't fit the bill for every car. Just like one tire pressure doesn't work for every car/tire/driver combo, neither does a set of brake pads.

We have tested numerous Hawk Performance brake pad compounds and pad combinations on various tracks, track surfaces and weather conditions. Here is a brief synopsis of what our team has learned and what I can still recall without going back through my notes.

-We have run and/or tested the DTC compounds with much success. DTC-70, 60, 30, 10, and the 9012 "Blue" compound that has enjoyed much market success for the past several years (more on the Blue later).
-A list of these compounds can be found here: http://www.hawkperformance.com/motor...unds/index.php
-We did a fair amount of temperature testing involving an infrared temp gun and also used brake thermocouplers inbedded into the brake pad. This was done to capture brake pad temps to see if they are within the operating range they were designed for.
-The RX8 has incredible brakes. When you can reduce or eliminate the front weight transfer that comes from hard braking (typically addressed with a much higher front spring rate than anyone uses on this forum) you can get the rear end of the car to really bite and take better advantage of all 4 of your tires braking potential.

We would typically run a DTC 60 front and DTC 10 rear. This works well with our car setup. When we ran bigger front springs (600-750) we ran 60/60. At Daytona we ran 70/60 due to the huge braking requirements (opportunities) and gave up some finer finesse for brute braking capability. The 70/60 combination was difficult when we ran softer springs on tracks that did not require HUGE braking or stops from 140mph+ Daytona.

At LimeRock (where there is very little heavy braking) we ran a combination that allows you to just scrub the brakes a little. This is a solution that allows you to brush the brakes lightly with very, very little to no front nose dive. There are pads that have an initial bite that will throw your body out the windshield however most drivers I know don't care for them. Often these type of brake pads don't allow you to apply a finesse approach and can lead to overbraking and/or over slowing the car in the braking zone. Brakes are a tool and you will find lap time reduction by finesse pedal use. Brakes are not just for "stomping" on them, turning the car and jumping on the throttle. All the Hawk DTC compounds have a very nice initial bite to them that we've found drivers can quickly adjust to them. The Carbotechs (as a comparison) have a much more gentle initial bite and (IMO) give up some bigger bite when you get into deeper pedal travel. Great product. Danny Pushkar is a great guy to talk to. Talk to him if you have the chance.

When we run a big monster front swaybar (to allow for a softer spring rate and a more compliant ride) we find that we can lock up and/or carry the rear tires. Sometimes this actually leads to brake lockup and a little tire smoke before the ABS takes over. We found this the last time we ran our car at Putnam Park (my home track) when we ran a 450 front spring and 60/60 compounds. Too much rear brake compound on that particular day on that track with that car setup.

When it rains (I highly suggest you run the RX8 in the rain----the car is wonderful in the rain and the ABS is a treat to drive), we ran the more gentle 60/10 combination.

For the NASA 8 hour Enduro in December of 2008 we ran 60/60 and the front's lasted every bit of 8 hours of HUGE braking. Frequently all 3 drivers got into the ABS. Note: The car handled exceptionally well for this event and we ran a larger 245 R6 Hoosier. More tire grip = more opportunity to be more aggressive with the brakes.

A few personal notes for this forum:

-Many of you will find a more aggressive brake package will lead to even more front end "dive" in the braking zone. This can lead to the rear end feeling squirrely. I can only describe this as a feeling of the rears locking up and I suspect that many a novice driver may find this hard to feel this in the seat of their pants. If you think this is happening, brake deep in a straight line and then turn-in to the corner with a little too much speed. If your car loops out---chances are your new big brakes are working great, your experiencing lots of front nose dive and there is little weight on the rear of your car to allow the rear wheels to get good grip. This is hard for a novice to feel if you just brake really hard in a straight line. You'll have to use a trail braking corner or a high speed corner after a signifcant braking zone. T1 at Kershaw would provoke this. The sharp left hander at the end of the backstraight at VIR IF YOU BRAKE REALLY late. T7 at Putnam Park. Basically any turn followed by a higher speed heavy braking straight You can look at your individual wheel speed sensor data (all our cars have this available through the OBDII port) to see if the front's are running a higher mph than the rears (which would indicate the rear's are not in full contact with the track surface). The big issues I believe you'll find will be suspension in a street or street/track prepped car running an R compound tire with softer springs. These cars will experience nose dive under hard braking and THAT will be your limitation----your suspension. To cure this you'll have to run a more gentle rear brake pad or run much stronger front springs (the majority of street drivers find this unacceptable and very few "spring/shock and spring" packages will give you enough front spring rate to fully prevent nose dive from occuring. Most people will just brake a little earlier. These improved track suspension packages will help however you'll sacrifice your cushy street ride for the opportunity for faster lap times.

Safety Note: DO NOT try to evaluate if your car is nose diving under hardbraking using the turn the wheel method that may result in looping out AT ANY TRACK THAT DOES NOT HAVE A HUGE RUNOFF AREA. Be smart. If you're going to take a educated risk, do it on an appropriate part of the track. If you're driving an open track event, let your instructor, group leader or the event organizer know what you are working on. Tell them you are working on using your brakes more than you have in the past and if/when you do loop out, they will better understand. Ideally you want to come off the brakes while you are slooooowly turning your steering wheel and have your car stick like glue.

Hawk Blues:

The Blues are a very old techology that is still produced in high quantities. MOST resellers will suggest these and if you call the Tire Rack (no offense Tire Rack) you'll get a "run the blues, they are great, everyone runs them, blah, blah). Guess what. If you talk to Hawk they will tell you this compound is inferior to the DTC product. INFERIOR. Some of you may have experienced the dreaded "I ran Blue Compounds in the rain and now I have tiny little iron specs all over my car". This is a byproduct of both brake compound and rotor material interaction. This is basically metal byproducts of the rotor coming off and becoming inbedded in your paint, rims, other. The HPS is a more kind product and if you can run the DTC-10's I think you'll enjoy those a bunch.

Hope this helps.

Happy Rotoring,

Eric

justjim

Great info Eric Meyer. Good to see some info backed up by testing and experience.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

correction, the Grand Am compound is harder than the R6 for increased wear properties dictated by the series, otherwise you'd just be running the R6

EricMeyer

Team,

I am under the belief that the compounds are the same however there are two bands/strips/somethings?? of rubber on the R6 and 3 on the GAm cars. I'm told this is to make the tire last longer. This info is from my Hoosier reseller/tire guy Phil Phillips. We get about 5 to 6 heat cylces on our R6's and 8 on a GAm tire before it's toast----so it sort of makes sense. Also lap times appear about the same. Please advise if you've got more accurate info. In the big picture I think it doesn't matter but it's fun stuff to know.

Cheers,

prisonerofcs

iTrader: (2)

As the customer who bought the ET800s in the OP, I thought I should update as the brake squealing and give some my background with brake pads.

This is the third set of brake pads on the car since I've owned it. I purchased my 07, with 22,500 miles on it. The brakes where done by the dealer when I purchased it, mazda OEM pads were used. I got to 45,000 miles on those pads without much of an issue. But as I got more used to the car I drove it much harder, the as the pads wore down they seemed by become far less impressive. It may just have been my increasing demands on the car. I decided to save some money and put "Napa Ceramic" pads on the car. The braking was terrible. They stopped alright after proper bedding, but they were worn down 90% within 10,000 miles. They were good on dust, thats about it.

Also for reference I worn through a set of Bridgestone Pole Positions in 8,000 miles and Yokos in 18,000 miles.

My 800s did not include any shims or new clips like all the other brake pads I'd purchased. I installed them without shims and cleaned an reinstalled all the retaining clips. If you need new hardware you'll need to plan ahead. I assume this is typical of high end pads so just and FYI.

I replaced my pads along with my front rotors and the difference was amazing. I definitely have much better modulation, I can feel the instant the pad contacts the rotors. If I press hard they will lock up at 70 mph all day long. After applying dialectric grease to the clips, and all the bearing surfaces of the brakes pads squealing is down probably 80%. Its barely audible with the radio off and AC on low. With the AC past 3 or the radio playing I can't hear it. Out of the 150 miles I drove today I only heard them squeal twice.

I look forward to replacing the rears in the near future and will probably try the ET500s because I have noticed the rear locking phenomenon mentioned Eric Meyer and want to try out the less aggressive pad.

A word about Fluid Motorsports. I've been very happy with them. Its great to have a performance parts distributor in Florida. Brice answers questions fast and honestly. Nothing more I can ask for!

RA-Eight

iTrader: (6)

Running RB's ET500 pads all 4 corners. Up front with RB's big brake kit, RB's open-slot 2-piece rotors all 4 corners, stainless steel lines. Feedback on the street: sound is non-existent, bite is instant but easier to modulate than stock, responsive pedal feel, almost dustless. Can't attribute the performance solely to the pads because I upgraded the whole system at the same time. Will provide more feedback after a few autoX events end of summer.

rodjonathan

iTrader: (6)

the et800's are awesome!

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

Glad to hear everyone is enjoying their pads and thank you to TeamRX8 and Eric for your feedback and experiences.

As for the Brake Grease, talked with Racing Brake and with the ET300 and ET500 pads it is not necessary to apply grease as compared to Hawk Pads. Those two series' exhibit little to no squeal.

waldo

I have a stock RX8 that I am trying to track more and more. I am keeping the car stock for the time being. My track tires are now Kuhmo SPTs. When they go bald, I am looking for something more agressive.

Is the Hawk 60/10 combination too aggressive for me? I have 4 track sessions planned this year: VIR, 2x CMP, then Road Atlanta. I would love to only buy one set of front pads this year. I ran hawk HPS yast year on the same tires at CMP 3x and Road Atlanta.

Thanks for any input.

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

^When are you going to VIR and CMP? I'll be at CMP on august 1st, and VIR september 7-8.

waldo

VIR July 25-26 with NASA-MA
CMP Oct 17-18 with Tar Hell SCC
CMP Nov 7-8 with NASA-SE
RA Dec 5-6 with NASA-SE

VIR in Sept sounds like it fits the schedule nicely. Who is at VIR in Sept?

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

^www.mvptracktime.com

They posted in the regional section of the site. Look for 2009 SouthEast Track Days Invite.

tunerwannab

iTrader: (1)

I just installed some ET500s all around and even though my oem pads had almost the same amount of pad left on them these are much better than the oem. I will update more after I get some more miles on them.

EricMeyer

My GUESS is that the 60/10 will be too aggressive. My guess is that you'll get a ton of front nose dive and the rear end will get light. I am not aware of anyone running a 60/10 combo in a stock car. These things have a very nice balance for us and our suspension is no where near stock. Just driving it around the block rattles your teeth big time.

So how did the HPS work for you?

Here is a guy that would know: Jason@Andrew-Racing.com

NoRotorNoMotor

I am very close to being through my first set of the ET 500's
I will probably by another set - They are fantastic pads both on the street & auto-x.
You can lock the fronts at scary high speeds. (w/ direzza z1* tires btw) - But they are easy to control.
If your car is mostly stock. (mine is) I see no need for anything more aggressive.

Speaking of that Fluid - how much is a set of the ET 500's from you??
I also need a pair of Z1 tires for the rear.

Thanks - Chris

Race Roots

iTrader: (64)

$80 for the Front, $55 for the Rear plus shipping

So looking at $121 plus shipping...

Save 10% on the total brake order by using coupon code Racing Brake Special, this goes for all brake products as well.

Stocked all day everyday I never run out of pads.