Todd TCE

Why don't you call Stoptech directly and ask them what you want to know? Questions like this on a forum tend to get a lot of "I heard, think, it might, you can't, maybe it will" sort of replies that aren't much better than your local shop. Go to the source.

Todd TCE

Eric should have his rear rotor kit in hand by now and hopefully having it installed soon. The rear presented a few problems as fitting the rear caliper to the same hat prove impossible. I had to go back to the parts books for some alternate hats due to the iron 'spar' that runs top to bottom on the caliper contacting the aluminum hat. A smaller hat cured this problem.

There remains some clearance issue for the back side as well that cannot be easily dealt with. Mounting the caliper to the adapter brackets there are two options- off centering the caliper a bit (shims supplied) or a the need for some clearance grinding on the iron slider cage to clear the new hardware. In either case the install is pretty simple and there's no compromise to integrity of it.

PhotoMunkey

Swimming in the deep end, are we? Since I'm the original author of this thread I reserve the right to ridicule anyone making ignorant statements. Stoptech makes calipers which will fit the rear of the RX-8. No, you can't retain the stock e-brake cable if you choose this route. Planning to get Stoptech brakes, plan to get wheel offset spacers too.

To anyone who wants to know how the rears work, I hope to have them installed tomorrow. Been working on stories all week and last weekend, and will be at the Shine Auto Project BBQ on Sunday in Ontario, CA if anyone wants to see them in person!
Eric

SolarYellow510

Here comes the helpful guy with information. First off, StopTech doesn't make an ST-10 setup for the rear of the RX-8. Their rear kit is "race only" because it doesn't preserve any parking brake function. It replaces the stock caliper completely with an opposed, fixed, two-piston caliper. On the other hand, you won't take the StopTecch calipers out of boxes that are printed "For Racing Use Only" or whatever it says on Wilwood boxes. StopTech calipers actually have dust boots on all the pistons to keep them serviceable for the long haul in the real world without regular rebuilds. You can get StopTech-engineered and manufactured brake systems with a Toyota warranty through TRD.

The ST-10 is a billet, sliding all-mechanical caliper. The simplest explanation is that it's like the stock RX-8 rear caliper as far as the parking brake mechanism, but without the hydraulic portion that is used in "normal" braking. StopTech uses this in selected applications where, like the RX-8, the parking brake is integrated into the stock caliper, rather than being a separate drum brake. A few are NSX, Viper, Audi S4, etc. The ST-10 is in addition to whichever two-piston or four-piston caliper is used to do the primary work.

I plan to get StopTech brakes eventually, and already have three sets of wheels that clear them, no problem. Just not the stock ones. Since wheels are the first thing that many, many people do to their car, I really don't understand why not fitting stock wheels should be the end of the road for a discussion about an otherwise excellent product.

For the OP, asking technical questions about a totally different product in an existing thread about a specific product is bad form, and you might get flamed. Better to start a new thread.

Todd TCE

I'm not certain what the label on the box has to do with what's inside of it but you're leaving out a bit of the information as well as making claims that are not fully correct. I have nothing against the other brand here, please just be certain if you come as the helpful guy you bring all the details.

In looking at what you propose the fit of the rear kit "for racing use only" means that as you say; it's not coming with the ST10 caliper. That would have to be added to the package to provide both operations- both braking and holding. This means a set up (if available) would be dual caliper. (mentioned deeper in your post) And dare I add; a bit costly. In turn the gains of this design are only marginal over both the stock system and a rotor enlargement kit. Two pot opposed is equal to single slider assuming the same bore diameters so clamping is not changed, albeit repsonse improved.

The same could be achieved by way of the Wilwood parking brake caliper, also a single pot floater but fit to the larger rotor. As those in the know have pointed out there's little gains here with regard to a true multi piston rear design. So aside form appearances the only real gains on any of these designs comes from the improvements of rotor; both larger, better vented and likely weighing less than a solid one.

The age old arguement for booted or not booted calipers I thought had been pretty much put to rest. For hard track use the booted version of nearly any caliper has heat limitations that often melt or burn the rubber boots. Many other calipers (not only Wilwood) prefer the use of stainless steel for improve heat barrier protection to the caliper body and fluid. And non booted- ss pistons are not prone to instantly failing if exposed to water, dirt, snow and the like. The don't somehow just fall apart. I'll grant you I've supplied replacements to "salt belt" customers after 5-6yrs of service on two occasions. At about $175ea so the cost per life cycle is not hard to swallow. As for the need for rebuilds and service the other side of the coin is that when exposed to harsh track use the booted ones may need as much or sometimes more. In the end it's simply which side of the fence you fall.

But as this seems to be a point of contention here (and a worthy one I confess) you'll take pride in knowing the BSL4r in use is fully booted. Even if it does come in a "racing use only" box.

SolarYellow510

Todd,

I really appreciate your professionalism. I know you to be a great guy, knowledgeable and fair, from other forums and your reputation in the market.

Stainless steel does indeed have much lower thermal conductivity than aluminum. Kudos to Wilwood for finally adding boots to a couple part numbers. Note that the BSLR4 has aluminum pistons, though.

I didn't mean to imply that a piston would somehow fail through corrosion. Pushing a piston that has a nice layer of road grit, brake dust, etc. on it backward past a pressure seal without first pushing it all the way out and cleaning it kinda bugs me. If you do that several times, you just might find some weepage. Show stopper, no, but it is a greater maintenance requirement. On a street car, I think I'd rather have a dust boot that's a little ragged than none at all.

The guy came into Eric's thread asking about another product. Eric was seeing his thread start to get jacked into a discussion about a competitive product, so I can totally understand him not being happy about it. At the same time, the other guy's question wasn't getting answered. And Eric's general dismissal of a product I happen to think is very good on the basis of not fitting stock wheels, which is a non-issue for many of us, just felt a little bit flippant. Looking back through my post, I may have been a little bit unfair, and should have done some more research on exactly which caliper you're using.

Thanks, Todd, for being the level-headed guy you are and keeping us kids in line.

eviltwinkie

You know I don't see the big deal with the e-brake anyway...I've just gotten used to leaving the car in gear like I do at the track...

Todd TCE

You've been mislead a bit here. This time in part by Eric. No harm, no foul. The BSL4r is in fact a fully booted caliper. Eric's propsed build of this with another shop hit a number of bumps in the road and in my mind this would prove to be one of them.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-...4R14/index.asp

I was not only concerned with what I knew would be the ongoing debate of biasing issues and such but that someone would point out the non booted issue of the BSL6r. In killing two birds with one stone the final product answered both issues and in fact the third; caliper stiffness. The 4r proves a beefier part than the 6r model. That comes at a small price however of more space required and occasional flip of pads from non differential bore.

I have no problems with comparing product with anyone. Bigger or smaller companies, each has pros and cons. I've worked hard for 14yrs of BBK production to slot my product in the right price point and market. It's only been the last few years that I've moved to the higher price point product. This often means more comparing of product than selling a real value packed 13" FSL kit for $1300. The move to larger parts and into the radial mount design really bumps cost. I'm still confident the shop will remain comfortably under market price.

I'm all good with someone who wants to spend more money and feels they are getting a better product. Sometimes they are. If you're looking to spend $3k on a brake kit I'm not the one they'll call anyhow.

Now...if I can only get Eric to mount up the rears.... Dude! You should have sucked it up and driven over.

Todd TCE

Well, ok then.

PhotoMunkey

Read my statement closer. 1- I did not state which Stoptech caliper fits the rear of the RX-8, but I assure you they make one that fits. Call Jon at JIC-Magic and ask him which Stoptech caliper and rotors he mounted on the rear of the time-attack RX-8 he's currently building. 2-If you use this setup you WILL NOT HAVE an e-brake any longer. This is precisely what I stated and I stand by that. Any good fabrication shop can mount ANY decent caliper on the back of the RX-8 if you've got the money.
Okay, I just cannot leave this one alone.... this "excellent" company makes an add-on e-brake caliper for the rear of certain performance cars (all of which cost at LEAST double the price of the lowly RX-8 I might note) rather than simply BUILD one caliper which does both? And this is an example of their "excellent" engineering? Dude, I'm not saying they won't stop the car, just realize that you're dealing with a company which isn't exactly the most innovative group in the industry.
Two words: SNOW TIRES. Most performance tires are not meant for cold weather, either in temperature range or tread evacuation. Might as well be on snow skiis. The half of the country living in the Snow Belt understands this, and usually mounts the snow tires on the cheaper-to-shoe stock wheels. Will you remove your brakes to mount up snow tires or will you slap them onto one of those "three sets of wheels which clear Stoptechs"? You've got some damn big wheels if the spokes clear the face of the Stoptech calipers. Even the guys at Stoptech tell you that most wheels will require a spacer. Listen to the sound of me scoffing at the use of "excellent product" and "requires a spacer" in the same discussion. I would, however, accept "good, generic product" as an apt description.

In order for a wheel to be lightweight, it needs to carry its spokes relatively close to the center's inner lug face (i.e. it can't have a huge hung of aluminum in the center). Not only are the Stoptech calipers for the RX-8 fairly heavy as far as aluminum calipers go, but they force you to use an inherently heavier wheel in order to clear their "good, generic product's" design. Weight is the enemy of the rotary, always. It will make you accelerate slower and take longer to stop. Period. THAT is why I don't favor Stoptech's products... oh, and their prices. For overseas made goods, they sure carry a hefty price... Wilwood calipers are less expensive and are made here in the United States of America.

PhotoMunkey

I wanted the boots; it was the other party involved who wanted 6-pistons who didn't mind that the BSL6r had no boots and steel pistons. Carl at Wilwood felt the boot/no-boots issue was moot. Carl also states that the 6-piston caliper is infintesmially-stiffer than the 4-piston, though there's no doubt that the 4-piston caliper's mass makes it more resistant to heat. Every solution I examined had some compromises in it, which is why I wanted Wilwood to change one of the bores on the BSL6r. Then it would have worked perfectly, been extremely light weight, and would have provided even more clearance behind nearly any wheel in the market. That was not to be though due to the cost of a production run of calipers.

As far as mounting the rears... I get paid to write, and had to finish a few stories this week (I'm still not completely done) and prep the car for the Shine Auto Project BBQ on Sunday. I've put nearly 3000 miles on the car in less than 25 days, so it's not like I've been in one place long. I'm not even at home Friday night and all day Saturday. I might take the parts along on Sunday, and install them right at the show, just to demonstrate how easy (hopefully) they are to mount! Hand tools and a breaker bar and Todd's excellent instructions!

BTW-MazdaSport has agreed to run the brake tech story, so there's one more I've got to do this month now! LOL No rest for the wicked!

PhotoMunkey

Thread-hijacking is a no-no... Thread-hijacking while promoting a competing product is a definite no-no. Doing so with a heavier, one-size-fits-all generic product is a triple no-no. If someone wants to pay through the nose for ST's product, that's their choice, but it wasn't mine for the reasons I've already listed. The ST brakes SHOULD stop well because they're sized to fit a battleship.

This is my BBK development thread (thanks to Todd for actually completing his kit first!) and if anyone wants to ask a question about ST brakes, instead of searching for the already-existing threads on ST brakes, they should start their own.

Just because someone else "happens to think it's very good", and doesn't agree with my "general dismissal", doesn't mean I'm not right. When someone states, "I plan to get these...", which clearly indicates that they haven't yet purchased this kit, all points they make before and after that admission should be taken with a grain of salt.

That said, I feel much better now! Besides, I DO like SolarYellow510's avatar!

PhotoMunkey

You can lean against an RX-8 in gear and push it away if you're not careful. The seals in the rotary engine will NOT hold the car on a hill. Try it and you might come back out to find your beloved SE3P parked under a lifted Hummer!

PhotoMunkey

BTW-I haven't updated my signature because I can't figure out how to get the description of all of my stuff in the required 6 lines! Gonna have to do a GIF I think...

SolarYellow510

Wow. I thought I had smoothed things out, but now you have to go there...

I've been to StopTech's HQ and seen their manufacturing. It sure looked to me like a lot of hard-working Americans coming in every day and making the best parts they know how.

My 17x8.5 SSRs weigh about 16 lb. each. Some people will talk smack about SSR Comps being weak, but the 15.5-lb 17x8s I've had on my BMW for 50,000 miles or so are still perfectly round.

The last time I drove my own sports car on snow was 1999. I had to walk a couple miles into town to buy some chains, then I had them on the car for maybe ten minutes of driving. This is SoCal, so at least I got to point and laugh at a Camry with chains on the back, and a GS with chains on the front

I have driven many, many cars with many different brake systems. I have driven groups of the same model of car back to back, same day, same track, with StopTech and other BBKs. I have sold both StopTech and Brembo at retail, experienced their customer service, and installed a wide range of product myself. I have seen a top-level pro race driver qualify on the pole and jump out of the car and say he wished the (much more expensive) brakes on that car performed and felt as good as the StopTechs on the other car he was driving that day. StopTech is my choice, a decision based on direct experience and product knowledge. I haven't gotten as far as putting them on an RX-8 yet, but when I do, it won't be my first experience with them.

As you said, this isn't a StopTech thread. I thought I was done posting, but couldn't let some of the stuff you said go. Flame away, I'm done now. If anyone wants to discuss the features and benefits of various brake systems if we meet somewhere in person, I'd be happy to. But no more in this thread.

Thanks for the props on the avatar. I shoot and write, too.

Todd TCE

Just busting your chops a bit because I'd like to see the rears in place to match the fronts. And hear of your input, good or bad.

Please read the notes before you attempt to do this off sight. You'll need to plan on trimming or removing the rear dust plate as well as deciding on the choice of the spacers use or a Makita grinder to clearance for the bolt head. None of it is terribly hard to do, but planning ahead would mean a lot here having not done it already as I did here.

PhotoMunkey

Time, date, track, car, and driver please... oh and finishing position too, if you don't mind. Two different cars... Hmmmmmm I'm assuming that there were more items different on each car than just the brakes, right? Suspension geometry, anti-dive geometry, tire sizes and compounds, entry speeds and braking points can all be vastly different. Heck, just changing the pads from one compound to another can radically alter the feel. Were they too grippy (too sensitive) or weren't they sensitive enough? Also, if he qualified the car with the "much more expensive brakes" on the pole, what was his laptime compared to the other car he was driving that same day? Perhaps the pole-sitting car was faster, and those "much more expensive" brakes were having to work harder?

I'm sure the driver meant what he said, but wouldn't be surprised if the engineer didn't feel like whacking him in the head, especially after a pole position-qualifying run.

Jon at JIC-Magic uses Stoptech on their drift and time-attack cars, and he's pretty picky about his choices since he can use anyone he wants. I've never argued that they don't work well.

BTW-are you saying that Stoptech makes their calipers here in the US, or that they assemble them here using caliper castings from China and Taiwan? I'm just curious, not picking a fight. I'd like to know.

SolarYellow510

All of StopTech's calipers are 100 percent designed in-house here in California. I've seen the FEA, etc. and know the engineers.

Today's economy is global. For example, there is no volume manufacturing of aftermarket replacement brake rotors in the US anymore. The only remaining rotor foundry is exclusively OE supply. StopTech sources internationally, just like any other company that must survive and deliver a product at a competitive price relative to its content. Some components and materials are sourced domestically, because that's where the best price for the best quality is found. Some components and materials are sourced internationally, whether across the Atlantic or Pacific, or Canadian or Mexican border, because that's where the best price for the best quality is found.

It's not my business to reveal all of StopTech's suppliers. I know they do business with suppliers around the US and in foreign countries on four continents. Hats and brackets are machined from billet in Compton, calipers are machined from the squeeze-forged or fully forged parts in Compton, all finishing operations are done in SoCal, and all assembly and QC of every step is done in-house in Compton. Every application is designed in Compton (used to be Torrance).

StopTech brakes are as American as any Ford, Chevy or Chrysler product. You're a journalist, I'm sure they'd be thrilled to give you a tour almost any time, and show you exactly what they have going on. Their phone number is on the web site.

I'm not used to hearing this "made in Taiwan" stuff from someone who promotes Wilwood. It usually comes from Race Technologies, the company Brembo NA uses to handle its BBK distribution.

I probably shouldn't have talked about the race driver, because it wasn't said in front of any journalists. He has his professional relationships, and I'd be a biggus dikkus to mess with that.

PhotoMunkey

Do you work for Stoptech, or retail their products? For a casual member of this board you're awfully well-informed.

So their rotors and caliper bodies, and perhaps assembly bolts are all sourced from overseas, like from China? The same China which can't make a watch which lasts longer than 6 months, and thinks shipping lead-paint smothered toys to the US is acceptable? Who else still has forging presses? Germany and the US still do. Who else?

Again I'm still not saying they're bad products, but people should be aware of what they're getting. How many folks on here have purchased metal products made in China which fail because of sloppy metallurgy? I can think of at least three things I've owned which fall into that category. There IS a reason why Brembos cost more... they control every step of the manufacturing process starting with the raw ore. Not even Wilwood can say that. This Wilwood system is designed to be an affordable 14" alternative because no one else was bothering to offer something in this price range, THOUGH THEY COULD BECAUSE OF WHERE THEY'VE SOURCED THEIR PARTS. It's great to say they're getting the "best quality for the price" but honestly, as a journalist, I know just how inexpensive stuff from China can be. How they get from those prices, to the retail prices charged for the 14" Stoptech kit is beyond me.

For example, Gibson still lists all of their guitars as "hand-built in the USA", but in all honesty, most of the work is now done by CNC woodworking equipment in Memphis, Tennessee. The quality of assembly being done by Epiphone in Korea usually exceeds that of Gibson's own "hand-built" stuff, though neither is perfect because there's no marketability in "perfect" these days. It is unfortunate that "good enough" is accepted everywhere.

SolarYellow510

I try to actually investigate my subjects. I've been inside performance aftermarket companies' manufacturing facilities in Germany, the Netherlands and Italy, not to mention the U.S.

PhotoMunkey

Stoptech has never been a subject of mine, hence no trip to see their facilities. I did point a friend in their direction recently because of their policy on sponsorships and refunding money for magazine coverage. He needs something for his 335i coupe before I shoot it for a magazine.

PhotoMunkey

Rear TCE Performance Products 13" brake kit installed now. See the photos below:

BTW- I've been sick this week so I don't have side view shots of the car with both the front and rear brakes installed yet. I did confirm that both the Wilwood 4-piston fronts and the offset 13" rear kits from Todd will clear the stock wheels with no problems. Important if you live in snow country and need to mount up those snow tires on your old rims.

The package works great together but now I want to upgrade the rear pads to something like the Mazdaspeed pads or Hawk HP+ for an increase in coefficient of friction over the stock pads.