My first experience driving the RX-8 in snow (not as good as I hoped).
12-23-2004, 08:48 AM
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My first experience driving the RX-8 in snow (not as good as I hoped).
Well, yesterday I posted about how excited I was to test my RX-8 with its Blizzak WS-50 tires in the first real snow storm of the year. The conditions we had this morning don't get much better (or worse, depending on how you look at it) for truly testing the drivability of the RX-8 in heavy snow. The fury of the storm hit at about 3:30 am and is just now letting up. The timing of the storm and rate of snowfall were such that plows hadn't touched ANY of the roads I traversed on my way to work (if they had, there was no evidence). The result was about 6" of loose, heavy snow blanketing everything.
At first, I thought it was going to be a smooth ride into work. The Blizzaks had no problem digging into the loose, untouched snow on the flat roads in my neighborhood. The performance was equally as impressive on the local roads leading to the main artery, Michigan Ave, and I noted how effectively the DSC corrected the yaw of the car when too much throttle was applied. This is where the fun ended and the learning began.
Turning onto Michigan Ave required traversing a slight incline, and plowing through several banks of untouched snow between tire tracks. After hitting the first couple of loose snow piles, the car lost most of its momentum and the rear tires began to spin in a futile effort. The TCS, sensing the wheel spin, cut the throttle and worsened an already bad situation. I turned off the TCS and finally managed to break free and I creeped by a Mustang hopelessly stuck in the middle of the turn lane. While this was happening, pickups, SUVs, and FWD cars were making their way around the roadblock I presented.
On the ~10 mile journey down Michigan Ave, I managed to loose momentum 4 or 5 times and became temporarily stuck, usually on slight inclines or in areas where there was a lot of loose snow piles. On a couple of those occasions, turning off the TCS and applying throttle simply rotated the the car clockwise such that the nose pointed toward the curb. I'm not sure how I managed to escape from these situations.
By the time I had completed 3/4 of my journey, I think I had amassed enough knowledge to complete the final leg of the trip without any major problems. The main reason for my problems, I believe, was the TCS system acting in a detrimental manner, resulting in the loss of much-needed momentum on inclines or deep, loose, snow. The technique I developed was to turn off TCS/DSC while ascending inclines or when starting from a stop, and to turn it back on once cruising speed was attained. The other thing I had to learn was to apply as little throttle as possible, as practically any throttle input made the car want to rotate clockwise.
I'm eager to give this another try, now that I believe I have the proper technique. However, from my experience this morning, I really feel that adding weight in the trunk will help out in those situations where the tires are struggling to gain traction. I know this has been debated on the forum before, but I'm going to give it a try and I'll report on how it affected the drivability.
Some other comments I'd like to make are as follows:
I really don't think I would have made it to work today with anything but snow tires. I don't think all-seasons would have done the job. I saw a BMW 325i with all-seasons struggling to go anywhere (aside from the Mustangs, I'd say this was the only car that the RX-8 out-performed).
This was my first experience driving a RWD vehicle in the snow, so I'm sure some of my struggles can be attributed to inexperience. However, for those who have made comments about the RX-8 with snow tires driving circles around SUVs with 4WD and all-seasons, I have to seriously question whether you have actually driven an SUV with 4WD/AWD and all-season tires in the snow. I think this sends the wrong message about the drivability of the RX-8 in the snow. The only thing I can think of is that those SUV drivers you saw were being excessively cautious, or that there are certain icy conditions in which snow tires will give a HUGE advantage over anything with all-seasons. Now that I've had a chance to drive both our AWD SUV and the RX-8 in bad conditions, I'd take the SUV in a heartbeat. It peforms much better, hands down.
The last thing on my mind is ground clearance. As I was driving in the tire tracks of the vehicles in front of me, I could hear the loose snow between the tracks scraping the underbody, or whatever is lowest to the clearance line. Has anybody else experienced this, and if so were there any problems that could possibly be attributed to this?
At first, I thought it was going to be a smooth ride into work. The Blizzaks had no problem digging into the loose, untouched snow on the flat roads in my neighborhood. The performance was equally as impressive on the local roads leading to the main artery, Michigan Ave, and I noted how effectively the DSC corrected the yaw of the car when too much throttle was applied. This is where the fun ended and the learning began.
Turning onto Michigan Ave required traversing a slight incline, and plowing through several banks of untouched snow between tire tracks. After hitting the first couple of loose snow piles, the car lost most of its momentum and the rear tires began to spin in a futile effort. The TCS, sensing the wheel spin, cut the throttle and worsened an already bad situation. I turned off the TCS and finally managed to break free and I creeped by a Mustang hopelessly stuck in the middle of the turn lane. While this was happening, pickups, SUVs, and FWD cars were making their way around the roadblock I presented.
On the ~10 mile journey down Michigan Ave, I managed to loose momentum 4 or 5 times and became temporarily stuck, usually on slight inclines or in areas where there was a lot of loose snow piles. On a couple of those occasions, turning off the TCS and applying throttle simply rotated the the car clockwise such that the nose pointed toward the curb. I'm not sure how I managed to escape from these situations.
By the time I had completed 3/4 of my journey, I think I had amassed enough knowledge to complete the final leg of the trip without any major problems. The main reason for my problems, I believe, was the TCS system acting in a detrimental manner, resulting in the loss of much-needed momentum on inclines or deep, loose, snow. The technique I developed was to turn off TCS/DSC while ascending inclines or when starting from a stop, and to turn it back on once cruising speed was attained. The other thing I had to learn was to apply as little throttle as possible, as practically any throttle input made the car want to rotate clockwise.
I'm eager to give this another try, now that I believe I have the proper technique. However, from my experience this morning, I really feel that adding weight in the trunk will help out in those situations where the tires are struggling to gain traction. I know this has been debated on the forum before, but I'm going to give it a try and I'll report on how it affected the drivability.
Some other comments I'd like to make are as follows:
I really don't think I would have made it to work today with anything but snow tires. I don't think all-seasons would have done the job. I saw a BMW 325i with all-seasons struggling to go anywhere (aside from the Mustangs, I'd say this was the only car that the RX-8 out-performed).
This was my first experience driving a RWD vehicle in the snow, so I'm sure some of my struggles can be attributed to inexperience. However, for those who have made comments about the RX-8 with snow tires driving circles around SUVs with 4WD and all-seasons, I have to seriously question whether you have actually driven an SUV with 4WD/AWD and all-season tires in the snow. I think this sends the wrong message about the drivability of the RX-8 in the snow. The only thing I can think of is that those SUV drivers you saw were being excessively cautious, or that there are certain icy conditions in which snow tires will give a HUGE advantage over anything with all-seasons. Now that I've had a chance to drive both our AWD SUV and the RX-8 in bad conditions, I'd take the SUV in a heartbeat. It peforms much better, hands down.
The last thing on my mind is ground clearance. As I was driving in the tire tracks of the vehicles in front of me, I could hear the loose snow between the tracks scraping the underbody, or whatever is lowest to the clearance line. Has anybody else experienced this, and if so were there any problems that could possibly be attributed to this?
12-23-2004, 09:04 AM
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Havent driven the 8 in the snow, but I grew up around Traverse City, Mi so I grew up driving in snow. I dont think it really matters as far as tires go when its icy out. Only thing thats going to make driving on that any better is studded tires.
Adding a little weight to the trunk is definetly worth a try. You are not going to be doing any performance driving, (obviously, haha) in the snow, so the change to the weight distribution of the car isnt going to adversely effect things to much. It is very possible that it will help the rear tires maintain a litle more traction in these conditions. I know it has worked for me in other cars/trucks I have driven in the snow. Give it a try and let me know how it works out. Curious about it myself, even though I am rather unlikey to have to worry about it in Houston!
Also, I was thinking that once you turned off the DCS and the TCS off, the only way to get it back on was to shut off the car and restart it. Is that what you were doing?
Adding a little weight to the trunk is definetly worth a try. You are not going to be doing any performance driving, (obviously, haha) in the snow, so the change to the weight distribution of the car isnt going to adversely effect things to much. It is very possible that it will help the rear tires maintain a litle more traction in these conditions. I know it has worked for me in other cars/trucks I have driven in the snow. Give it a try and let me know how it works out. Curious about it myself, even though I am rather unlikey to have to worry about it in Houston!
Also, I was thinking that once you turned off the DCS and the TCS off, the only way to get it back on was to shut off the car and restart it. Is that what you were doing?
12-23-2004, 09:17 AM
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Also, I was thinking that once you turned off the DCS and the TCS off, the only way to get it back on was to shut off the car and restart it. Is that what you were doing?
I'm definitely going to try adding weight to the trunk. I won't have a chance to test it out anytime soon because this is my last day of work for the year and I'm going out of town for Xmas.
12-23-2004, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RX8_Buckeye
Well, yesterday I posted about how excited I was to test my RX-8 with its Blizzak WS-50 tires in the first real snow storm of the year. The conditions we had this morning don't get much better (or worse, depending on how you look at it) for truly testing the drivability of the RX-8 in heavy snow. The fury of the storm hit at about 3:30 am and is just now letting up. The timing of the storm and rate of snowfall were such that plows hadn't touched ANY of the roads I traversed on my way to work (if they had, there was no evidence). The result was about 6" of loose, heavy snow blanketing everything.
At first, I thought it was going to be a smooth ride into work. The Blizzaks had no problem digging into the loose, untouched snow on the flat roads in my neighborhood. The performance was equally as impressive on the local roads leading to the main artery, Michigan Ave, and I noted how effectively the DSC corrected the yaw of the car when too much throttle was applied. This is where the fun ended and the learning began.
Turning onto Michigan Ave required traversing a slight incline, and plowing through several banks of untouched snow between tire tracks. After hitting the first couple of loose snow piles, the car lost most of its momentum and the rear tires began to spin in a futile effort. The TCS, sensing the wheel spin, cut the throttle and worsened an already bad situation. I turned off the TCS and finally managed to break free and I creeped by a Mustang hopelessly stuck in the middle of the turn lane. While this was happening, pickups, SUVs, and FWD cars were making their way around the roadblock I presented.
On the ~10 mile journey down Michigan Ave, I managed to loose momentum 4 or 5 times and became temporarily stuck, usually on slight inclines or in areas where there was a lot of loose snow piles. On a couple of those occasions, turning off the TCS and applying throttle simply rotated the the car clockwise such that the nose pointed toward the curb. I'm not sure how I managed to escape from these situations.
By the time I had completed 3/4 of my journey, I think I had amassed enough knowledge to complete the final leg of the trip without any major problems. The main reason for my problems, I believe, was the TCS system acting in a detrimental manner, resulting in the loss of much-needed momentum on inclines or deep, loose, snow. The technique I developed was to turn off TCS/DSC while ascending inclines or when starting from a stop, and to turn it back on once cruising speed was attained. The other thing I had to learn was to apply as little throttle as possible, as practically any throttle input made the car want to rotate clockwise.
I'm eager to give this another try, now that I believe I have the proper technique. However, from my experience this morning, I really feel that adding weight in the trunk will help out in those situations where the tires are struggling to gain traction. I know this has been debated on the forum before, but I'm going to give it a try and I'll report on how it affected the drivability.
Some other comments I'd like to make are as follows:
I really don't think I would have made it to work today with anything but snow tires. I don't think all-seasons would have done the job. I saw a BMW 325i with all-seasons struggling to go anywhere (aside from the Mustangs, I'd say this was the only car that the RX-8 out-performed).
This was my first experience driving a RWD vehicle in the snow, so I'm sure some of my struggles can be attributed to inexperience. However, for those who have made comments about the RX-8 with snow tires driving circles around SUVs with 4WD and all-seasons, I have to seriously question whether you have actually driven an SUV with 4WD/AWD and all-season tires in the snow. I think this sends the wrong message about the drivability of the RX-8 in the snow. The only thing I can think of is that those SUV drivers you saw were being excessively cautious, or that there are certain icy conditions in which snow tires will give a HUGE advantage over anything with all-seasons. Now that I've had a chance to drive both our AWD SUV and the RX-8 in bad conditions, I'd take the SUV in a heartbeat. It peforms much better, hands down.
The last thing on my mind is ground clearance. As I was driving in the tire tracks of the vehicles in front of me, I could hear the loose snow between the tracks scraping the underbody, or whatever is lowest to the clearance line. Has anybody else experienced this, and if so were there any problems that could possibly be attributed to this?
At first, I thought it was going to be a smooth ride into work. The Blizzaks had no problem digging into the loose, untouched snow on the flat roads in my neighborhood. The performance was equally as impressive on the local roads leading to the main artery, Michigan Ave, and I noted how effectively the DSC corrected the yaw of the car when too much throttle was applied. This is where the fun ended and the learning began.
Turning onto Michigan Ave required traversing a slight incline, and plowing through several banks of untouched snow between tire tracks. After hitting the first couple of loose snow piles, the car lost most of its momentum and the rear tires began to spin in a futile effort. The TCS, sensing the wheel spin, cut the throttle and worsened an already bad situation. I turned off the TCS and finally managed to break free and I creeped by a Mustang hopelessly stuck in the middle of the turn lane. While this was happening, pickups, SUVs, and FWD cars were making their way around the roadblock I presented.
On the ~10 mile journey down Michigan Ave, I managed to loose momentum 4 or 5 times and became temporarily stuck, usually on slight inclines or in areas where there was a lot of loose snow piles. On a couple of those occasions, turning off the TCS and applying throttle simply rotated the the car clockwise such that the nose pointed toward the curb. I'm not sure how I managed to escape from these situations.
By the time I had completed 3/4 of my journey, I think I had amassed enough knowledge to complete the final leg of the trip without any major problems. The main reason for my problems, I believe, was the TCS system acting in a detrimental manner, resulting in the loss of much-needed momentum on inclines or deep, loose, snow. The technique I developed was to turn off TCS/DSC while ascending inclines or when starting from a stop, and to turn it back on once cruising speed was attained. The other thing I had to learn was to apply as little throttle as possible, as practically any throttle input made the car want to rotate clockwise.
I'm eager to give this another try, now that I believe I have the proper technique. However, from my experience this morning, I really feel that adding weight in the trunk will help out in those situations where the tires are struggling to gain traction. I know this has been debated on the forum before, but I'm going to give it a try and I'll report on how it affected the drivability.
Some other comments I'd like to make are as follows:
I really don't think I would have made it to work today with anything but snow tires. I don't think all-seasons would have done the job. I saw a BMW 325i with all-seasons struggling to go anywhere (aside from the Mustangs, I'd say this was the only car that the RX-8 out-performed).
This was my first experience driving a RWD vehicle in the snow, so I'm sure some of my struggles can be attributed to inexperience. However, for those who have made comments about the RX-8 with snow tires driving circles around SUVs with 4WD and all-seasons, I have to seriously question whether you have actually driven an SUV with 4WD/AWD and all-season tires in the snow. I think this sends the wrong message about the drivability of the RX-8 in the snow. The only thing I can think of is that those SUV drivers you saw were being excessively cautious, or that there are certain icy conditions in which snow tires will give a HUGE advantage over anything with all-seasons. Now that I've had a chance to drive both our AWD SUV and the RX-8 in bad conditions, I'd take the SUV in a heartbeat. It peforms much better, hands down.
The last thing on my mind is ground clearance. As I was driving in the tire tracks of the vehicles in front of me, I could hear the loose snow between the tracks scraping the underbody, or whatever is lowest to the clearance line. Has anybody else experienced this, and if so were there any problems that could possibly be attributed to this?
I tink when people claim to drive around SUV in the RX8 its because they are comparing their RX8 with winter tires to the average SUV fool that only runs all seasons...let's face it, we've seen how most SUV people drive. They don't really demonstrate great drving skill....and yes, an SUV should have better traction in big snow than the RX8, but what were you expecting out of the 8? We bought these cars for how well they perform in the good weather...not as a alternative to an SUV for winter driving.
The SUV may have better traction off the line but its not going to brake faster than the RX8 and the RX8 will maneuver much better than an SUV.
You indicated that this is the first RWD car you've drivin in winter. I've drven many different RWD cars in winter and I have to say the the RX8 performa very well. Indeed maybe to need more experience to improve your technique.
Bottom line, the RX8 performs well for a SPORTS CAR......
12-23-2004, 09:30 AM
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Buck - Good post. The Blizzak WS-50 supposedly are good snow tires, so yes, experience in driving RWD in the snow is key. Be *very* light on the throttle. I was interested in the idea of cutting off the TCS. Putting more weight in the back is a good idea too, especially bags of sand, in case you really get stuck.
12-23-2004, 09:31 AM
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it snowed here monday morning and we only had around 2''.which is not alot by all means . but you have to remember i live on the coast of n.c and we hardly ever get any snow . the condition have to be perfect to get any.since most of the people here have very little driving experence in the snow my 8 stayed in the garage and i drove the suv.the people who think they have driving experence i normally pass them as they are getting towed out of the ditch haha.
12-23-2004, 09:34 AM
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I tink when people claim to drive around SUV in the RX8 its because they are comparing their RX8 with winter tires to the average SUV fool that only runs all seasons...let's face it, we've seen how most SUV people drive. They don't really demonstrate great drving skill....and yes, an SUV should have better traction in big snow than the RX8, but what were you expecting out of the 8? We bought these cars for how well they perform in the good weather...not as a alternative to an SUV for winter driving.
The SUV may have better traction off the line but its not going to brake faster than the RX8 and the RX8 will maneuver much better than an SUV.
You indicated that this is the first RWD car you've drivin in winter. I've drven many different RWD cars in winter and I have to say the the RX8 performa very well. Indeed maybe to need more experience to improve your technique.
Bottom line, the RX8 performs well for a SPORTS CAR......
The SUV may have better traction off the line but its not going to brake faster than the RX8 and the RX8 will maneuver much better than an SUV.
You indicated that this is the first RWD car you've drivin in winter. I've drven many different RWD cars in winter and I have to say the the RX8 performa very well. Indeed maybe to need more experience to improve your technique.
Bottom line, the RX8 performs well for a SPORTS CAR......
. What I was trying to say is that it is misleading to state that the RX-8 with snow tires can drive circles around SUVs. Even with all-seasons, our SUV does much better than the RX-8.I didn't really talk about braking. Overall, it was EXCELLENT with the snow tires. I was very impressed with the braking performance. Someone had mentioned turning off ABS. Does this help, and if so, how do you do it?
I guess I can't really complain about the RX-8 compared to other sports cars. I saw 4 Mustangs stuck and a BMW 325i who could hardly get going. I didn't see any other sports cars on the road, which leads me to believe that they didn't even attempt the commute, or they got stuck before they made it to the main roads. However, I could be nitpicky and say that my previous FWD 3000GT with all-seasons did a hell of a lot better than the RX-8 with snow tires. Is that considered a sports car :D ? Probably not since it's FWD.
12-23-2004, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
whats the difference between the WS-50s and the LM 22s that i have?
Last edited by RX8_Buckeye; 12-23-2004 at 09:45 AM.
12-23-2004, 09:46 AM
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Mentalhealth is overrated
Originally Posted by Paul_in_DC
Buck - Good post. The Blizzak WS-50 supposedly are good snow tires, so yes, experience in driving RWD in the snow is key. Be *very* light on the throttle. I was interested in the idea of cutting off the TCS. Putting more weight in the back is a good idea too, especially bags of sand, in case you really get stuck.
NO I don't agree with putting sand bags in the trunk. The car's balance helps in the winter. To put all that weight in the trunk would off-set that....your car would probably not work as well as it did.
12-23-2004, 09:47 AM
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I guess a lot depends on the driver and snow/ice experience. 4WDs are great but the stopping ability is the same as everyone else perhaps. This morning, I drove my 4WD Toy truck with 1465K on it. I passed many SUVs and 4 WD trucks. It’s like they didn't know what to do. I was able to go close to the speed limit although at times I dropped 10 Mph under and took it very carefully around corners and turns on the road. It looked like to me the SUV drivers were not sure of their vehicle or something else but they were barely moving. My RX stays in the garage because it has the original tires on it and so it would just sit and spin in snow. It’s mighty cold in Denver right now and snowing lightly. A high of 7 degrees today with -5 tonight!! brrrrrrrrr. Meanwhile the RX sits in the garage all cleaned up and no where to go.
12-23-2004, 09:50 AM
#12
Mentalhealth is overrated
Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
whats the difference between the WS-50s and the LM 22s that i have?
Go here for info on tire performance.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...jsp?perfType=W
The LM-22 don't use the same rubber compound as yout typical blizzack tires. They are ment for road conditions where you may be driving on dry pavement for 1/2 the time. This means that the tire doesn't work as well on ice but they shouldn't wear out as quick as the other blizzacks.
12-23-2004, 09:57 AM
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NO I don't agree with putting sand bags in the trunk. The car's balance helps in the winter. To put all that weight in the trunk would off-set that....your car would probably not work as well as it did.
12-23-2004, 09:58 AM
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I learned to drive rwd in the snow. fwd was not around when I started driving. It's not that bad, you have more contol of the front of your car than fwd and less control of the rear. One of the keys to traction is to use a higher gear than normal which reduces torque and the tires won't break loose as quickly.
12-23-2004, 10:00 AM
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I learned to drive rwd in the snow. It's not that bad, you have more contol of the front of your car than fwd and less control of the rear. One of the keys to traction is to use a higher gear than normal which reduces torque and the tires won't break loose as quickly.
12-23-2004, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RX8_Buckeye
I didn't completely disable the systems by holding the button for several seconds. I just partially disabled them with a single push of the button. Doing so allowed my rear wheels to spin freely without a throttle reduction by the PCM. I still think the DSC is valuable while cruising, because it does a good job of correcting a sudden loss of control. Therefore, I don't think I would ever completely disable it in the snow.
12-23-2004, 10:03 AM
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Buckeye like you I pretty much had the same idea, I was excited and scared at the same time while I was warming up/cleaning off my car.
I made it to work with relatively no problem at all though.
I think I saw you in the summer if I am not mistaken on telegraph right under mighigan ave.
I made it to work with relatively no problem at all though.
I think I saw you in the summer if I am not mistaken on telegraph right under mighigan ave.
12-23-2004, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Go48
I think you will find that you didn't really shut down TCS. Apparentely, that requires holding the DSC button in for several seconds. And to reactivate it, you need to shut down and restart.
Turning off TCS completly would only disable the antilock brakes...and why on earth would you wanna do that??
12-23-2004, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Go48
I think you will find that you didn't really shut down TCS. Apparentely, that requires holding the DSC button in for several seconds. And to reactivate it, you need to shut down and restart.
12-23-2004, 10:16 AM
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When I ordered my LM22's last year I had them put on 17" rims and they are 10mm thinner. I think this helps out a lot in the snow as it lets the tire bite more. I have had no problems with this combination. The only time I think our AWD Subaru Legacy with snows does better is acceleration from a standstill on a hill. Other than that the RX-8 brakes and corners as well. The Subaru lacks traction control, but the AWD makes up for that most of the time. When the wheels spin the Subaru goes straight however, where as the Mazda wants to spin as you have discovered. For reference I live in New Hampshire, so we get a fair bit of snow, but most of the time the roads are cleared quickly.
12-23-2004, 10:24 AM
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Buckeye I'm using Pirelli snowsport 240's, Your using Blizzacks, How much did you pay for em?
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/winter-wheel-tire-pics-installed-28442/page3/
(scroll to bottom of page)
I think I saw you in the summer if I am not mistaken on telegraph right under mighigan ave.
12-23-2004, 10:27 AM
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When I ordered my LM22's last year I had them put on 17" rims and they are 10mm thinner. I think this helps out a lot in the snow as it lets the tire bite more.
. After today I think I made a bad decision.
12-23-2004, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Redfusion3
I think he knows that...
Turning off TCS completly would only disable the antilock brakes...and why on earth would you wanna do that??
Turning off TCS completly would only disable the antilock brakes...and why on earth would you wanna do that??
Regards,
Gordon