buzzwordenabled

First off, Tirerack kicks ***. I got a call from them confirming my web order and they asked me if I wanted TPMS for the wheels. I declined, but it was a very nice thought. I'll be doing the old-school version of TPMS to make sure things are in check.

I did the standard winter package of Blizzak WS-50s and 17"x7 Kazera KZ-Rs. It should make my 6-speed a little friendlier in the snow. Pricewise, it's nice to see availability of the 17s that fit the car. Earlier in the summer, I nearly fell on the floor with the prices of the 18s. Yes, tires and rims are not cheap, but you do get several seasons out of them and they're less traumatic than pulling off a bumper cover hooked on a snow bank. (been there, done that)

The Blizzaks are the shiznit. I had them on my BMW last year and they saved my *** on numerous occassions. There was also the sick pleasure of passing Jeeps and Pickups on icy snow covered roads. I look forward to the same level of fun in the RX-8. It will be interesting to see how the car handles. Worst case, I'll fill the trunk with snow. :D

Folks seem to complain that the Blizzaks are too much of a compromise in favor of ice and snow. Frankly, that's why I like them -- why switch unless you've got a real advantage in winter. Last winter, we didn't have to worry about "dry" performance in the northeast.

For now, I'll enjoy the precious remaining weeks with the Potenzas and stock rims. I'm placing my bets on the farmer's almanac prediction of a cold wet winter. Given that we had flurries earlier today, that may not be far off.

Be safe. Keep the rubber side down.

PHA RX-8

I concur. Tirerack is top notch. Got my order in 2 days and Jim was more than helpful. I ordered set of Pirelli 240 SnowSport Performance Winter tires 225/45VR18, since I missed the dunlap M3's in OEM size. I will be buying 19's in the spring, so I didn't mind reusing the stock wheels.

Danielson

So, where do you live buzzwondenabled ? Having snow already ?? But I agreed with you on your choice of winter tires !! That's what I have on my RX8 and they work very well, specially on 17 " but my wheels are Ronal with 10 spokes, good deal by my cousin in Quebec city, I wasn't able to say "No", I'm looking forward to play in the snow with my
WS-50 again this winter !!!

bean438

Is it too late to change your order? The Blizzak you chose is for regular passenger cars, not a performance car.
The Blizzak lm-22 is the performance one, as is the Toyo garrit ht, and the pilot alpines, and the dunlop wintersports.
According to many people you will be disappointed in that particular choice.

RX8_Buckeye

Here we go again. The "many people" you're talking about is only one person as far as I know. Everyone else just seems to repeat what they've heard from this one person. Look, I've read a number of posts from people who used the WS-50s last winter, and they worked great. The salesman at TireRack insisted that the WS-50s were the best for snow and ice traction according to their independent testing. In fact, he uses them on his Lexus IS300. Sure, you're going to give up a little bit of dry handling performance with the WS-50, but for many of us this is acceptable given its performance on snow and ice. Another benefit: they're much cheaper than the "performance" winter tires.

buzzwordenabled

I've had WS50s before on my BMW and looking forward to having them again. Per my original post, the performance in snow was just fantastic. I'm all about traction in the snow and ice. There are better tires for the purpose (Scandanavian brands), but the WS50 does a great job at a low price point. I don't expect to be disappointed.

Yes, the WS50s are only Q rated, but I am not planning on sustained operation above 100MPH in the slush and snow.

Which tires are you going with?

willhave8

I too just got my wheel/winter tire package from TireRack. Great service 'nuff said.

I went with the Kazera R's but bought the Dunlop Winter Sport M3. Just decided that I like the longer life of the Dunlop's vs the Blizzaks and can probably live with (as measured) slightly poorer snow performance given that I look at these tires as a guarantee of getting hoem from work not to take trips in the winter to the ski resorts. My 4X4 fits that role. I liked the way the TireRack site let's you choose the packages based on your needs from the data they provide.

I also dove in and bought the TPMS kit as well. Wow - $400+ just to keep an idiot light off on the dash.

Craig

Craig

buzzwordenabled

Go you! That's awesome. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I saw the idiot light come on for the first time after the car had sat for more than a week. My left rear needed a couple of PSI (sensitive little bugger that TPMS). For me, the light is too easy to ignore.

bean438

Your is blizzak is indeed better in ice and snow, than a performance tire.
The dry winter road handling which is most of the winter driving you will do will not be as good as a performance winter tire.
Go to apa.ca. They list winter tires for regular cars (ws-50) and winter tires for performance cars (lm-22 etc)
I do not classify the rx8 as a regular car.
I was just trying to make a point that you will be disappointed in the performance of your tires in the driving conditions you will most likely encounter.
As for this "one" person you refer to I am guessing that it is Gord from Calgary.
I instantly singled him out as an individual who actually knows what he is talking about, not some "I heard that....." kind of guy.
I give what he has to say a lot of weight.
Even the tire web sites will show that a winter tire cannot do it all.
Ice/snow performance, or dry road performance.
Their are regular tires for regular cars, and performance tires for performance cars.
As for them being cheaper, yes they are, but why skimp on a tire when you spent well on the car?
Do you put cheap oil in it too?
You will probably put all seasons on it as well.
Lose the attitude, I was trying to help.

fluque

What about the Dunlop Graspic DS-2? Better rated than the WS-50 according to tirerack and cheaper......

RX8_Buckeye

Okay, I apologize if you were just trying to help. I just felt I should say something in defense of the WS-50s since they seem to get a bad rap on this forum. I don't think people should be made to feel as if they made a mistake by ordering the WS-50s. After all, these tires are included in the default winter package that TireRack offers, and came strongly endorsed by the TireRack salesman. I don't see what TireRack has to gain by pushing the cheaper WS-50s over the more expensive LM-22s or Dunlops.


I understand what you're saying. My perspective is that I would be a hell of a lot MORE disappointed if I bought a winter tire that couldn't get the job done under the most severe of conditions. I'll take "getting to work okay" over "spirited winter driving" any time. I didn't want to compromise the former just to have the latter, and the TireRack salesman told me I'd be doing exactly that by going with one of the "performance" winter tires.


I, too, respect Gord's opinion and I don't doubt he knows what he's talking about. He has had first-hand experience with the WS-50 and recommends against getting them. That's fine, I accept that and I realize I'm taking a risk by not following his advice. It just bugs me that people will often repeat what they heard from someone else and act as if they have had first-hand experience. It makes it seem as if there is a general concensus about something, when in fact everyone is simply adopting someone else's opinion. It's really not that big of a deal--I apologize for overreacting.

bean438

No worries. I guess I appologize for being a little sharp as well.
My 8 is my first car, and my winter tires are my very first. I do not speak from experience.
However, my lifestyle affords me a lot of spare time. Most of that time is spent (wasted?) on the web researching this and that. One of the things I researched to death was winter tire technology.
I almost know more about my Michelin's than Michelin does.
My advice was from Gord, the web, and a few people at work that have driven on numerous brands of winter tires.
The APA has a really nice website. They have summer and winter tire info/ratings.
They suggest brands of tires based on price, treadware, quality, and use.
They categorize the winter tires:
1. Regular passenger car, conservative driver (ws-50)
2. Regular passenger car, aggresive driver (graspic ds2)
3. High performance sports car (pilot alpine pa2)

They further explain that cat 1&2 will give better ice/snow performance and not as good dry road performance, while cat 3 gives you better dry road performance at the expense of some ice/snow traction.
I don't think Tirerack explains this at all. I do not agree with their recommendation.
That is just me. Most of the time I drive on dry roads in the winter. And believe you me I live in Winnipeg Manitoba, a town no stranger to some brutal winters.
A sports car deserves performance tires in my opinion.
If the snow is so bad that my performance winters will not get me through, than I have no business on the roads.
I guess thats why god invented snow chains (yes I am getting a pair just to say I have them, plus they do work (this I know from experience)).
I can appreciate your reason for choosing the tires you did.
They will serve you well, I hope you enjoy them.
I just wanted to be sure you were aware of what you were buying.
To come across as a know it all was not my intent.
Cheers!

Gord96BRG

Yeah, must be me! I hate to harp on the WS-50s, especially when someone has just bought them, but I do feel the need to speak out on this - especially when it's suggested that it's only MY opinion (or for different emphasis, only my OPINION) that the WS-50s aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Everyone seems to quote that the WS-50s are the absolute best on ice and snow - in FACT, that simply isn't true. What was it someone said about simply repeating what someone else said? Here's the truth - on ICE, the WS-50s are as good as any winter tire - but not the best, as there ARE other winter tires that are just as good. On SNOW, they are NOT the best. On dry pavement, they are about the worst of the name brand winter tires. Source? A November 2002 Consumer Reports test of High-performance and Q rated winter tires. Here's the actual overall rankings:
Those are the overall rankings, the actual article included rankings for each test, including performance on ice, snow, wet pavement, dry pavement. Notice for the Q rated tires, the WS-50 only ranked 8th overall. Now, consider this - that test was two years ago. Since then, Michelin has replaced the Arctic Alpin with the X-Ice; Nokian replaced the Q with the RSi; Dunlop has updated the Graspic; but Bridgestone still sells the same old WS-50. In the high performance category, Goodyear has replaced the GW2 with the GW3; Dunlop has the M3 replacing the M2; the Nokian WR replaced the NRW; Michelin replaced the Pilot Alpin with the PA2; and Bridgestone still has the same LM-22. The competition has upped their game, producing even better performing winter tires, but Bridgestone hasn't updated the WS, even though it didn't perform very well in competitive testing.

Basically, Bridgestone is selling the WS-50 on it's reputation from years ago. There are better winter tires out there now. Further, Bridgestone over the past 10 years has spent 20X the winter tire advertising budget of any other tire company pushing Blizzak winter tires - for many people nowadays, 'Blizzak' is synonymous with winter tires, thanks to Bridgestone's huge advertising efforts. That speaks volumes about the effectiveness of good advertising, but doesn't necessarily carry over into the relative qualitative merits of the current winter tire offerings on the market today.

Here's the issues I have with the WS-50:
- great on ice, OK but by no means outstanding or the best on snow, terrible on dry pavement. You wouldn't drive with cheapo touring tires in summer, because degrading the performance that badly simply isn't safe. Same with less-than-capable winter tires. Winter performance is a trade-off, but it's a poor trade-off to sacrifice that much dry performance for very little or no benefit on the ice/snow side.
- I'm driving a sports car, and I value steering response and handling feel. Again, why drive on touring winter tires intended for Accords and Malibus etc., when there are performance winter tires out there that give 95% of the ice/snow performance and 300% of the dry performance of the Blizzak WS-50s? The Blizzaks on dry pavement feel like you're driving in mud. Bleah. Why settle for less?
- The Blizzak's ice performance is due to the outer tread layer, a special hydrophilic compound. That special compound only consists of the outer half of the tread depth. Once it's worn off (and it wears off quickly), you're left with a decidedly ordinary winter compound that is far less capable. In other words, a WS-50 winter tire does not last as long as other winter tires.

So why does Tire Rack push the WS-50, making it the default selection on many winter packages? Apologies to Tire Rack (for this is my guess only), but their business is to sell tires for a profit. Because of their extraordinary volume of winter tire sales (compared to local retailers or other tires they sell), they get great pricing on Blizzaks from Bridgestone. I'd bet $$ that their profit on the WS-50 is significantly better than any other winter tire they offer. Nothing wrong with pushing their most profitable winter tire, especially when it is a good tire on snow/ice. BUT, for performance car drivers, for automobile enthusiasts, there are much better choices out there than a WS-50.

It's still relative, of course - a WS-50 is a better choice than any all-season tire and certainly better than a summer performance tire. I'd absolutely drive on WS-50s in winter rather than an all-season tire!

Apologies for ranting,
Gordon

RX8_Buckeye

I'll be happy as long as the tires perform their intended function in winter. Of course, I say that now... I'll probably be itching to put my summer tires back on January if they are really as bad as you say. Worst case scenario is that I can't stand driving on them on the dry days and have to use my car as a "transportation tool" for the next 2-3 winters. I'll be the first to come back and admit it if the tires suck .

The funny thing is that when I called up TireRack to place my order a few months ago, I tried to get the Dunlop M3s, but the salesman talked me out of it. I told him I had done my research and I knew exactly what I wanted, yet he still insisted that the WS-50s were a better choice for me. He claimed that he used the WS-50 on his car and they were great. I figured that he must really like the tire if he's trying to talk me out of a more expensive winter performance tire. Oh well, not much can be done about it now.

bean438

Good job Gord.

Here is my link for the apa tire ratings:


http://www.apa.ca/template.asp?DocID=97

They don't list specifically a good, better, best per say but they give you several choices in each category.
I noticed the Toyo's don't rank at all in the consumer list.
Lot's of rx8'ers have em and are happy with them.
I am surprised my Pilot alpines are dead last.
I chose them over the Toyo's because I have a brainiac friend who recommended Michelin tires period.
He seemed to think they make a superior tire.
I trust the apa.
Lot's of choice for the "type" of tire you need. I think most tire makers are cutting edge and have a great product.
I also agree with Gord that Blizzak is basically a brand name now just as kleenex and scotch tape.