I Took My 8 Out in The Snow With the Stock Tires for the 1st Time...
12-03-2005, 12:23 PM
#26
Purveyor of fine bass
spieder, you're basically saying that an open diff saves your butt when you apply too much gas. The excess gas then is burnt off on that one spinning inside tire, while the outside tire stays put.
You talk about transferring more "responsibility" to the outside tire. Is this "responsibility" defined as "traction" or "power input"? If it's "traction", them IMO, the responsibility transfer is the same in an open diff car as it is in an LSD car. If it's "power input", however, then the LSD car will apply more power, whereas the open diff car will apply less.
If you are cornering hard enough (for the road conditions) that you need both rear tires rolling to keep you from sliding, then you can loose the outside tire even with an open diff. As soon as the inside spins and goes from rolling to sliding friction, the outside tire's rolling friction is not enough and it breaks loose.
I think that's where DSC is the "keep your traction" balance to LSD. I'd rather have a limited slip and be careful w/ the power input (and have DSC to kill it if it's too much), rather than spin one tire in low-speed low-traction situations.
You talk about transferring more "responsibility" to the outside tire. Is this "responsibility" defined as "traction" or "power input"? If it's "traction", them IMO, the responsibility transfer is the same in an open diff car as it is in an LSD car. If it's "power input", however, then the LSD car will apply more power, whereas the open diff car will apply less.
If you are cornering hard enough (for the road conditions) that you need both rear tires rolling to keep you from sliding, then you can loose the outside tire even with an open diff. As soon as the inside spins and goes from rolling to sliding friction, the outside tire's rolling friction is not enough and it breaks loose.
I think that's where DSC is the "keep your traction" balance to LSD. I'd rather have a limited slip and be careful w/ the power input (and have DSC to kill it if it's too much), rather than spin one tire in low-speed low-traction situations.
12-03-2005, 01:01 PM
#27
Originally Posted by therm8
2 words...
snow tires
...
You cannot expect summer high performance tires to do anything in the snow. Don't bash the car when inadequate equipment is the problem. Fwiw, I did fine in an inch or 2 of slushy snow on my summer tires (BFG KDW2's), but I had to baby the throttle the whole way.
snow tires
...
You cannot expect summer high performance tires to do anything in the snow. Don't bash the car when inadequate equipment is the problem. Fwiw, I did fine in an inch or 2 of slushy snow on my summer tires (BFG KDW2's), but I had to baby the throttle the whole way.
The first time the temp dropped below 30F it snowed only a 1/2 inch or so but it was icey, he thought hey I have All Wheel Drive I'll go to the grocery store, as he backed out he braked at the end of the driveway to allow a car to sneak by so he could pull out...the car did not stop, slid across the rode and up onto the neighbors front yards. He could not get traction to drive it back across the street and into the garage so with his girlfriend and two neighbors pushed the car back to the garage (he put all seasons on the next day)
I live in Minnesota and it was 10F degrees last night...I have LM22s mounted on a second set of stock 18in rims...and the car drives BEAUTIFULLY I know exactly what it is going to do...it is amazing
What people are missing here is how/why snow tires work...and how/why you don't want to run them in warm weather
The compound in the stock tires starts becoming stiff in the high 40Fs, in fact I can easily break loose in the hi 30s, trying to drive the stock tires in below 20F temps on dry pavement is a diaster waiting to happen, this isn't about snow it is about your tires being 4 blocks of ice on their own. The only way they begin to gain traction is after warming up the tires somewhat, even then it is a hairy situation.
with winters on the compound stays soft and sticky to much lower temps...in fact I successfully drive with the Blizzak LM22s in -20F degree weather...without tire warm up.
Sure snow is a factor/ice is a factor but once you have the winter tires on they stick to those too.
With winters you want to take them off as soon as you start seeing mid 40s temperatures because at above 35F degrees or so the tires will wear in an accelerated fashion
good luck guys, and be safe!
12-03-2005, 02:48 PM
#28
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SoOOoooo many threads on this subject.
Buy a winter beater...you sound like you have the same type of winter that we get here in Virginia. I got those P-Zero tires....didn't help anywhere near what i had hoped they would.
Not a winter car at all.
Buy a winter beater...you sound like you have the same type of winter that we get here in Virginia. I got those P-Zero tires....didn't help anywhere near what i had hoped they would.
Not a winter car at all.
12-03-2005, 03:47 PM
#29
Klingon Grammarian
After all the stuff I read here, I made it a point to get snow tires and 17" wheels for winter. They got their first tryout when it started snowing in the middle of Connecticut while I was on my way down to New Jersey for Thanksgiving. It started just as I had pulled into a diner for a snack-break, and by the time I got out, the roads were quite snowy, in that squint-to-try-to-see-where-the-lane-markers-are-under-the-snow kind of way. Had to slow down to about 40mph; with that precaution, had zero problems with traction or anything, the tires did just fine.
Oh, and the roughness of the ABS is its way of telling you "Alright, I'll bail you out *this* time, but don't do that again!"
Oh, and the roughness of the ABS is its way of telling you "Alright, I'll bail you out *this* time, but don't do that again!"
12-03-2005, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Astral
spieder, you're basically saying that an open diff saves your butt when you apply too much gas. The excess gas then is burnt off on that one spinning inside tire, while the outside tire stays put.
You talk about transferring more "responsibility" to the outside tire. Is this "responsibility" defined as "traction" or "power input"? If it's "traction", them IMO, the responsibility transfer is the same in an open diff car as it is in an LSD car. If it's "power input", however, then the LSD car will apply more power, whereas the open diff car will apply less.
If you are cornering hard enough (for the road conditions) that you need both rear tires rolling to keep you from sliding, then you can loose the outside tire even with an open diff. As soon as the inside spins and goes from rolling to sliding friction, the outside tire's rolling friction is not enough and it breaks loose.
I think that's where DSC is the "keep your traction" balance to LSD. I'd rather have a limited slip and be careful w/ the power input (and have DSC to kill it if it's too much), rather than spin one tire in low-speed low-traction situations.
You talk about transferring more "responsibility" to the outside tire. Is this "responsibility" defined as "traction" or "power input"? If it's "traction", them IMO, the responsibility transfer is the same in an open diff car as it is in an LSD car. If it's "power input", however, then the LSD car will apply more power, whereas the open diff car will apply less.
If you are cornering hard enough (for the road conditions) that you need both rear tires rolling to keep you from sliding, then you can loose the outside tire even with an open diff. As soon as the inside spins and goes from rolling to sliding friction, the outside tire's rolling friction is not enough and it breaks loose.
I think that's where DSC is the "keep your traction" balance to LSD. I'd rather have a limited slip and be careful w/ the power input (and have DSC to kill it if it's too much), rather than spin one tire in low-speed low-traction situations.
. There are two basic friction coefficients. They are sliding and static. Whent he tires are rotating without sliping, the velocity of the tire where it contacts the ground is 0. The coefficient for static friction is greater than for sliding. So...if all 4 wheels are rotating then you have 4 wheels with the same coeffiecient of friction (static). Now, if you go around a corner and the inside rear wheel spins then it drops to the sliding coefficient of friction, which is less than the static coefficient. What happens at this point is that more centrifugal force is now transferred to the outer rear wheel. This new force then exceed the static capabilities of the tire and it will begin sliding. At this point you fish tail.
I can't comment on DSC's overall effect in the snow. I haven't been impressed in the rain.
12-03-2005, 07:36 PM
#31
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With my experience with the 8 in the rain I was frankly too scared to take her out in the recent snow that we got here. Been using my wifes scubaru and I think this was probably the best decision I could have made... Still have the original stock tires on it btw
12-03-2005, 07:47 PM
#32
Extraordinary Engineering
RE040s: Early Nov. with cold rain, night time, left turn with a little throttle the car almost spun around. The DSC did not have the grip to correct things.
Same day with 17" 225/50 W300 Ice Bear winter tires: No problems in the same conditions. Left turn under pretty good acceleration the tail stayed in place.
From now on I will switch off RE040s when the average morning temperatures are below 8 degrees celsius (45F). The stock tires are dangerous in the cold.
Same day with 17" 225/50 W300 Ice Bear winter tires: No problems in the same conditions. Left turn under pretty good acceleration the tail stayed in place.
From now on I will switch off RE040s when the average morning temperatures are below 8 degrees celsius (45F). The stock tires are dangerous in the cold.
12-04-2005, 01:47 AM
#33
I'm having a set of 17" Dunlop SP Winter M3s put on this week.
I'm hoping and praying that they will provide a 1000% improvement over the stock tires on snow and ice, because a 1000% improvement is needed.
I had another white knuckle drive tonight in Michigan (about 3" of snow), and my heart is taxed to the max.
I'm hoping and praying that they will provide a 1000% improvement over the stock tires on snow and ice, because a 1000% improvement is needed.
I had another white knuckle drive tonight in Michigan (about 3" of snow), and my heart is taxed to the max.
12-04-2005, 02:01 AM
#34
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This is the second winter with my RX-8 and I must say its fantastic in snow- with my Bridgstone Blizzack WS-50's I have mounted on it. Its actually so good in snow its the car I took last winter when there was a blizzard. My Maxima, minivan, and other cars cant even touch the RX-8 with the snow tires. Trust me, get yourself some 17 inch rims and put on Blizzacks, or Dunlop M3's and you'll be driving past stuck suv's. It's that good.
12-04-2005, 02:17 AM
#35
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We had a little snow i Chicago today also. Stock tires, and this is the most fun I ever had. Snow wasnt deep, but it covered the pavement. So far Im keeping the stock tires. When it snows next time and I have a little time Ill make a video of how it handles in the snow.
12-04-2005, 02:22 AM
#36
Originally Posted by Macius8
We had a little snow i Chicago today also. Stock tires, and this is the most fun I ever had. Snow wasnt deep, but it covered the pavement. So far Im keeping the stock tires. When it snows next time and I have a little time Ill make a video of how it handles in the snow.
12-04-2005, 02:35 AM
#37
Purveyor of fine bass
Originally Posted by Krankor
After all the stuff I read here, I made it a point to get snow tires and 17" wheels for winter. They got their first tryout when it started snowing in the middle of Connecticut while I was on my way down to New Jersey for Thanksgiving. It started just as I had pulled into a diner for a snack-break, and by the time I got out, the roads were quite snowy, in that squint-to-try-to-see-where-the-lane-markers-are-under-the-snow kind of way. Had to slow down to about 40mph; with that precaution, had zero problems with traction or anything, the tires did just fine.
Oh, and the roughness of the ABS is its way of telling you "Alright, I'll bail you out *this* time, but don't do that again!"
Oh, and the roughness of the ABS is its way of telling you "Alright, I'll bail you out *this* time, but don't do that again!"
I missed the Thanksgiving snow, as I went down to NYC and missed all the snow/fun.
12-04-2005, 02:46 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by truemagellen
it's ok you can just take pictures of the accident scene, your back will probably be hurting and we don't want you lugging around a heavy camcorder now would we
12-04-2005, 12:45 PM
#39
Purveyor of fine bass
OK, I just took her out for her wintery drive! It was only about 1.5 of snow, and main roads were plowed, but I did find some side roads, mostly unplowed (between .5 and 1.5" of snow), with some medium hills.
So.. these are my early winter driving in the 8 impressions.. by no means a description of its capabilities (or lack thereof)... I will write more later, when we get more serious snow.
Basically, the car didn't do anything unexpected, and behaved very well when driven carefully.
The braking on snow was pretty good. Doing hard braking in the middle of a snowy downhill, the car didn't really drift side to side: it stayed mostly straight as ABS was kickin and screaming. My ABS-less Protege would lock up and the rear end would start drifting sideways. So I was a little surprised that it was pretty stable in the 8.
Getting going in this little snow was devoid of fun. It pretty much drove fine. I was making turns through all the unplowed side streets and braking and giving it gentle gas, doing the typical careful "go slow and keep a lot of distance" winter driving. There was no sudden stepping out of the rear end on the turns, the moderate braking was controlled and ABS-engagement-free.
DSC/TSC was on all the time.
I gave it some gas in low 2nd gear RPMs on the road. The rear end would start stepping a little to the right, I would correct and overall the drift there seemed to be pretty controlled. I'm sure if I really floored it in first with DSC off, I would probably end up in a curb (with my n00b RWD skillz), but a little bit of "extra throttle" here and there felt pretty controlled. Again, I wasn't trying to rally the car on the streets or anything like that... I was just evaluating some basic snowy winter driving (as in, "I just want to get to work").
Proper ice racing will be forthcoming later in the season
So far, so good on my Dunlop M3s, I feel good about them for this winter. My biggest concern will be getting going in very snowy uphill situations, with rear end sliding and all that.
- 
So.. these are my early winter driving in the 8 impressions.. by no means a description of its capabilities (or lack thereof)... I will write more later, when we get more serious snow.
Basically, the car didn't do anything unexpected, and behaved very well when driven carefully.
The braking on snow was pretty good. Doing hard braking in the middle of a snowy downhill, the car didn't really drift side to side: it stayed mostly straight as ABS was kickin and screaming. My ABS-less Protege would lock up and the rear end would start drifting sideways. So I was a little surprised that it was pretty stable in the 8.
Getting going in this little snow was devoid of fun. It pretty much drove fine. I was making turns through all the unplowed side streets and braking and giving it gentle gas, doing the typical careful "go slow and keep a lot of distance" winter driving. There was no sudden stepping out of the rear end on the turns, the moderate braking was controlled and ABS-engagement-free.
DSC/TSC was on all the time.
I gave it some gas in low 2nd gear RPMs on the road. The rear end would start stepping a little to the right, I would correct and overall the drift there seemed to be pretty controlled. I'm sure if I really floored it in first with DSC off, I would probably end up in a curb (with my n00b RWD skillz), but a little bit of "extra throttle" here and there felt pretty controlled. Again, I wasn't trying to rally the car on the streets or anything like that... I was just evaluating some basic snowy winter driving (as in, "I just want to get to work").
Proper ice racing will be forthcoming later in the season
So far, so good on my Dunlop M3s, I feel good about them for this winter. My biggest concern will be getting going in very snowy uphill situations, with rear end sliding and all that.
-
12-04-2005, 06:26 PM
#40
'04 MT RX8/71 351C Mach1
6speed - I'll see your 69 GTO and raise you one '71 Mach I 351 Cleveland, Hurst 4 speed with B.F.Goodrich Radial T/As (no ABS, traction control - as you mentioned - we didn't even know what that meant in those days!) in Mentor, Ohio - the snow belt. That's where I cut my teeth on winter driving. Like you, no fears now, but a healthy respect for snow and ice and now knowing what good snows can do for you! Recently put Dunlop M3's on my '8 and with limited snow so far, think they're great. 
Originally Posted by 6speed8
Not even close to being the worst car, try a 1969 GTO with 400 ft lbs of torque through a 4 speed, Posi-traction rear on 10 inch wide 60 series bias-ply 'performance' tires. No traction control, no ABS, mechanical clutch and so much torque the tires want to spin on dry pavement.
The low torque of the RX-8 should be a blessing in the snow, but the stock tires should be swapped for all season or winter tires.
Of course, I no longer to worry about driving in snow, pehaps the days in the GTO did me in - lol.
The low torque of the RX-8 should be a blessing in the snow, but the stock tires should be swapped for all season or winter tires.
Of course, I no longer to worry about driving in snow, pehaps the days in the GTO did me in - lol.
12-04-2005, 07:44 PM
#41
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Woo-HOOO ! Winter Tires Rule!
I just installed Blizzaks and 17" K1 Wheels.
The car was fantastic in the snow today !!
My friend was watching me change the OEM 18" Summer tires and he asked " Why dont you just get All-Season tires and never change them again? Can you really feel the difference in Summer tires?"
We all bought this car because we don't want to compromise. The Summer tires are the best for 3 seasons, The snow tires are the BEST for cold and snow.
Snow tires have made this car worth owning again (After much bitching about gas milage - never again - sorry).
Do not hesitate - get snows now.
The car was fantastic in the snow today !!
My friend was watching me change the OEM 18" Summer tires and he asked " Why dont you just get All-Season tires and never change them again? Can you really feel the difference in Summer tires?"
We all bought this car because we don't want to compromise. The Summer tires are the best for 3 seasons, The snow tires are the BEST for cold and snow.
Snow tires have made this car worth owning again (After much bitching about gas milage - never again - sorry).
Do not hesitate - get snows now.
12-05-2005, 04:30 AM
#42
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^ I agree that you should never drive with summer tires in snow, but winter tires are not the only choice. I run summer tires most of the year and all-seasons during winter because I'd rather have only adequate snow traction, but superior handling in other conditions (instead of superior snow traction and poor handling/road feel/steering feedback on dry roads those 4-5 months/year).
BTW, last night I "christened" 4 snow-covered parking lots. I love snow
BTW, last night I "christened" 4 snow-covered parking lots. I love snow
12-05-2005, 06:56 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by joeman
i also just taken mine out(with stock tires) for the first time in about 2" of snow.
i have driven in snow for 25 year in every kind of car. i had to put in in neutral just to stop so many time. this was even on fairly level ground. it is the worst car in the history of cars in the snow. period. i have banned any family member from driving it in the snow unless it is an emergency. it is not that it doesn't go in the snow, i can get it going eventually. it is i cannot get it to stop unless i put it in neutral. if i did not know this trick it would be is someones living room right now.
this car has just too many caveats. this site has been a god send of important info. i still like the car but is is not a plug and play auto. joe
i have driven in snow for 25 year in every kind of car. i had to put in in neutral just to stop so many time. this was even on fairly level ground. it is the worst car in the history of cars in the snow. period. i have banned any family member from driving it in the snow unless it is an emergency. it is not that it doesn't go in the snow, i can get it going eventually. it is i cannot get it to stop unless i put it in neutral. if i did not know this trick it would be is someones living room right now.
this car has just too many caveats. this site has been a god send of important info. i still like the car but is is not a plug and play auto. joe
12-05-2005, 09:44 AM
#44
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can you recommend some all-season tires one should get if they wanted to totally replace the stock tires and only use those all year?
I dont have a garage or anywhere to store the extra tires so I would be limited to a single set all year.
I dont have a garage or anywhere to store the extra tires so I would be limited to a single set all year.
12-05-2005, 09:53 AM
#45
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You wre lucky that you did not get killed the stock tires are worthless. I bought 4 Pirelli Snowsports at Tirerack .com I had them mounted on the OEM wheels and I use them all year they are also good in the Rain.
12-05-2005, 09:57 AM
#46
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Also remember, according to the book (my 2004 book):
Snow Tires:
Don't go faster then 75 mph. Inflate snow tires 4.3 psi (30 kPa) more then recommented tire pressure...
Your vehicle is originally equiped with summer tires designed for optimal traction on wet and dry roads....
While it doesn't say you HAVE to replace your tires in the winter, it pretty much suggests it. I know the first thing my dealer told me is that if I planned to drive in the winter I would need a set of tires, like Blizzaks.
Snow Tires:
Don't go faster then 75 mph. Inflate snow tires 4.3 psi (30 kPa) more then recommented tire pressure...
Your vehicle is originally equiped with summer tires designed for optimal traction on wet and dry roads....
While it doesn't say you HAVE to replace your tires in the winter, it pretty much suggests it. I know the first thing my dealer told me is that if I planned to drive in the winter I would need a set of tires, like Blizzaks.
12-05-2005, 10:11 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by joeman
i also just taken mine out(with stock tires) for the first time in about 2" of snow.
i have driven in snow for 25 year in every kind of car. i had to put in in neutral just to stop so many time. this was even on fairly level ground. it is the worst car in the history of cars in the snow. period. i have banned any family member from driving it in the snow unless it is an emergency. it is not that it doesn't go in the snow, i can get it going eventually. it is i cannot get it to stop unless i put it in neutral. if i did not know this trick it would be is someones living room right now.
this car has just too many caveats. this site has been a god send of important info. i still like the car but is is not a plug and play auto. joe
i have driven in snow for 25 year in every kind of car. i had to put in in neutral just to stop so many time. this was even on fairly level ground. it is the worst car in the history of cars in the snow. period. i have banned any family member from driving it in the snow unless it is an emergency. it is not that it doesn't go in the snow, i can get it going eventually. it is i cannot get it to stop unless i put it in neutral. if i did not know this trick it would be is someones living room right now.
this car has just too many caveats. this site has been a god send of important info. i still like the car but is is not a plug and play auto. joe
Man some people are clueless.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TIRES. GET WINTER TIRES IF YOU WANT TO DRIVE YOUR 8 IN SNOW.
12-05-2005, 10:13 AM
#48
Jeager asked a pretty good question.
It only snows in southeastern Michigan ablout 6-10 times per year, so has anyone had any success in the snow with a good set of all-season tires that were maybe biased slightly towards snow and ice traction?
That would be very cool if I could find an all-season set, that handles well in the dry and wet, but gave me 80% of the capability in the snow of a good snow tire.
It only snows in southeastern Michigan ablout 6-10 times per year, so has anyone had any success in the snow with a good set of all-season tires that were maybe biased slightly towards snow and ice traction?
That would be very cool if I could find an all-season set, that handles well in the dry and wet, but gave me 80% of the capability in the snow of a good snow tire.
12-05-2005, 10:39 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by Katchoo
SoOOoooo many threads on this subject.
Buy a winter beater...you sound like you have the same type of winter that we get here in Virginia. I got those P-Zero tires....didn't help anywhere near what i had hoped they would.
Not a winter car at all.
Buy a winter beater...you sound like you have the same type of winter that we get here in Virginia. I got those P-Zero tires....didn't help anywhere near what i had hoped they would.
Not a winter car at all.
I live in Virginia too, near DC and the 8's my year around daily driver. Just get some snows, and you'll be fine. I have the same size tire on my stock rims, and just go to the dealer and switch em. I have the Pirelli 240 winter sports.
The 8 does great in the snow with snow tires- for Virginia winters at least.
NO car unless its a truck is a 'winter car'. But the 8 can hold its own with the right tires and planning.
12-05-2005, 11:02 AM
#50
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With my snow tires the rx8 handles, tracks,stops, corners, and takes off better than any front wheel drive I've owned with all season tires. You need SNOW TIRES dude. I live in a snow climate(Wisconsin) We already have had 6 inches of snow. I go out in the 8 just for fun when it snows. It's great.
Last edited by Roaddemon; 12-05-2005 at 11:04 AM.
