TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

pushing you're offset out there is fine with the narrower wheels, people trying to run wide wheels and tires will have clearance issues

I still say it makes no sense when the RacingBrake kit costs considerably less, has no wheel clearance issues, and is track proven

RotorManiac

yeah I saw the template a few posts back (thanks for that!) but I'm still not sure how to use it... never used one before... when you say drop it into the back of the wheel, what do you mean? just cut it around the dashed line, which represents the caliper and try to fit it on the brake disc? sorry, I know all these sound kinda stupid but I really don't know!

you might be right about the bargain from stillen but I just want ap racing brakes. I've seen many many cars with modded brakes from various known companies and the majority had worse brakes from stock with longer stopping distances... only ap racing makes a difference.... good luck for the track test and I'll be waiting a report for us who visit circuits from time to time the infrmation can be helpful... give them hell, that is the reason they are made for

Silverarrow

Rotormaniac:

Attached is a decent .pdf on how to use the template to check for fitment.

And yes, I do plan to give them hell next weekend! Also, not sure if you realized it but the deal from STILLEN was for the AP Racing brakes! It is one of their "February Specials" at http://www.stillen.com/product.asp?i...ing&make=mazda

takahashi

Beware of the template that it is assuming that you are using the AP racing brake rotor, since the hub has slightly different thickness for some disc (e.g. My Project Mu rotor has very thin hub). My stock wheel does not fit with the spacer supplied.

PhotoMunkey

AP Racing is Brembo. Period. Brembo owns and controls AP Racing. Want to know why there are so many pads to fit the AP Racing calipers? Check and see if the also fit the Brembo F40 and F50 calipers

PhotoMunkey

Yup, I know where they're from, by way of Italian foundries. Unless you, like I, have sat in a room with the head of Brembo North America, High Performance division, and chatted about Brembo products and what they own around the world, then you don't know jack.

http://www.brembo.com/ENG/AboutBremb...panyStructure/

I don't mind being right occasionally. I hate being doubted when I KNOW I'm right and the other person hasn't produce one shred of evidence to the contrary. AP Racing launch a clutch design which infringed on patents (I think Tilton's design?). They got sued. They lost big. They had to settle, and Brembo bought them, paid off the settlement, and now runs the company 100%. Why doesn't Brembo advertise this. Because they're friggin' BREMBO; the largest, most obsessive brake company on the planet! Their R&D bill (cost, expense, whatever you want to call it) was larger than every other brake companies' TOTAL INCOME in 2005. They make 4 BILLION dollars a year worldwide, which at the moment makes them about 16 times more profitable than the Ford Motor Company. They're also Italian, and almost as secretive as the mob.

AP Racing had a good reputation and brand name, so they've kept them around.

Additional info on Brembo's kits... While AP Racing uses an older F40/F50 caliper design, so distinguished by the external fluid hoses between the caliper halves, the newer Brembo designs are now all use internal lines in their "Monobloc" design. Brembo was changing to 1. improve on the durability of their product, and 2. reduce the weight of their calipers. Brembo, for as long as Race Technologies, Inc. has been the official distributor here in the United States, has had a 0% failure rate. They've simply NEVER seen a defective caliper.

Oh, and if you're the sort of person to fall for Stoptech's hype about caliper stiffness know that Brembo's research shows that the F50 caliper (more than a decade old design) has "virtually no measurable flex" during use. But I'm sure that Stoptech, a dinky company in California, has some multi-billion dollar machine which ensures that their caliper flexes less than the competition, right? Bu-bu-bu-but what about Stoptech's "balanced braking" and "variable piston sizing". ROFL! The first quote was stolen from a Brembo press release and the second was lifted directly from Brembo, where the idea originated years ago in Porsche racing brakes. We here in the US know so little about good braking that our three biggest auto manufacturers have to contract out to Brembo for research! Whoops, perhaps I should say our only three auto manufacturers... Japan has Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and Subaru (one more than us) and Germany has VW/Audi, Mercedes Benz, BMW, and Porsche (I know they're not a mass producer, but they still kick ***).

Of course, we here in the US also still think that putting wider wheels on the REAR of an RX-8 makes it better handling! Get over it! That's an idea stolen from the Porsche 911 and 930 Turbo, and rear-engine Ferraris, and completely necessary due to those cars' 65% rear weight bias! Unless your turbocharged, 3-rotor RX-8 is making 600 horsepower, having wider rears than your fronts is simply stupid. There's no kind way to say it. Might as well put wider rear wheels on a Honda.

So in summation of this little rant, pat yourself on the back, install your new AP Racing brakes and enjoy the heck out of them on the track, knowing full-well now that you're benefiting from the development work, metallurgy, and experience of Brembo.

All of the previous does not mean that I'm NOT officially jealous! :D

takahashi

haha I don't care if they start with A or B. If they are red and look good and stop well. That is all I care.

I will have a red Brembo anyday.

PhotoMunkey

I'm working on a new package with a reputable vendor who has produced stellar BMW parts for years. They want to use Wilwood calipers, which look good, are made of forged aluminum, are lightweight, and are reported to stop well. I'm taking suggestions in another thread right now. I figure if we all put our heads together about what we want, and the price we want to pay, we could have the best overall package possible... except for the Brembos. Again, they can afford to spend more time researching just the mounting bolts then we could spend on the whole brake project! They're so far up on their own level...

Silverarrow

Taka - this kit comes with new rotors, so if anyone is planning on the AP Racing setup that I have, the template is accurate.

PhotoMunkey - As far as AP and Brembo, their relationship is purely financial.

At least we can agree on the StopTech folks, their "white papers" seem like they come off of a roll...

RotorManiac

slverarrow, thx for the .pdf files very helpful. I didn't realize you were talking about AP brakes from stillen. however, what I said is an answer to photomunkey....

photomunkey, very good information you state there, but the problem is that the theory usually doesn't match reality, and I'm talking about mere numbers. brembo can have the upper hand in millions they spend, but when it comes to the tarmac they'll never equal ap racing, at least from what I've seen and what I've read... it's what taka said, all we do care here in this conversation, is whether the job is done... and ap seems to do it pretty well.
don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that brembo is a bad company. on the contrary, it's a leader in its class, but there have been quite a few disappointments from time to time, especially on factory fitted brake systems wearing their brand...
cheers

PhotoMunkey

From your own statement:
1. Brembo spends millions...
2. they're the leader in their class...
3. quite a few disappointments from time to time, especially on factory-fitted brake systems

Excuse me?
First, name ONE car with factory-fitted Brembos which does NOT post the best stopping times in its production class... "quite a few disappointments" or "time to time" (a vague, occasional sort of statement), which is it. This argument is called "damning with faint praise" in debating circles.

If they're a "leader in their class" and their class is the production of brakes, then, ergo, wouldn't they be the best in brakes, period?

Of COURSE the AP Racing caliper works fine... it's a 15 y/o Brembo 4-piston caliper on a big 2-piece rotor with an improperly-machined hub for our application necessitating a 15mm spacer to clear our wheels. That sounds like a real winner to me. You could put the STOCK single piston calipers on a 14" rotor with STOCK pads and effective brake torque would improve too, AND you wouldn't need to add weight with a 15mm aluminum spacer. But they sure look great!

Does anyone honestly think that Brembo provides 100% financial support for AP Racing, and does NOT actually support the company with braking system information, manufacturing information, and metallurgy support and/or raw materials? AP Racing used to only product custom racing brake applications. Now, thanks to Brembo's support, they offer a brake system line-up remarkably similar to Brembos Gran Touring packages, only using the older style calipers instead of the new monoblock forged aluminum 1 piece calipers. Look at the number of brake system produces being released monthly by AP Racing. Do you think any of that is possible without the 3500 engineers that Brembo employs? People this is a global company which even produces OEM ABS computers and hydraulic controllers for some of the most famous car lines in the world. Of COURSE AP Racing benefits from this.

Use a little common sense about brakes. Sticking a 14" rotor on the front without upgrading the rear upsets the brake bias. Without a corresponding increase in rear brake torque, in our case probably through the use of better pads, this Stillen/AP Racing system has effectively made this RX-8 more dangerous on the street in any sort of reduced traction situation which triggers the ABS system. This is especially true on stock tires, where the level of mechanical grip they provide is matched to the capability of the brakes. Does our car have a multi-channel ABS system which can pulse just one wheel, or when it kicks on does it do it for all wheels. If it does, and you lock a front wheel, you're screwed. It will take far longer to stop the car that way. The entire brake system and wheels/tires must be viewed as one cohesive unit, and upgraded accordingly.

But it's your $2k.

takahashi

Then I tend to agree......

Before I purchased the AP racing... I followed a professional racing, sit on another one before. Now I race on one on the race track and they are terrific, even for a 15 years old technology as you may suggest.

For the record, I will love to have either AP or Brembo, since they allow me to choose a lot of different pads. ....

I have gone through a few stock sized pads on my tracking experience on my 8 (*MazdaSpeed, EBC, SBS, and Project Mu), and I am likely to go through more brand as I go on.

Silverarrow

(A) According to Chris at STILLEN - This caliper has nothing to do with a Brembo caliper. It is made by AP Racing. AP Racing has their own foundries in the "Motorsports Valley" in the UK and does not co-mingle production with Brembo at all.

(B) As far as "improperly machined" that is a pretty big leap there. The first problem with this statement is that by "hub" I'm sure you meant "hat". I put this kit on myself and it becomes immediately apparent that you can only move the rotor so far back before it comes in contact with the upright. Which is exactly what they did, moved it as far back as possible. The CP6600 caliper is a beefy piece and the need for a spacer with stock wheels is due to its width. The kit was designed for performance, unfortunately if you want to use these high quality parts with the stock wheels the only way is with a spacer. I plan to purchase new wheels and when I do, I will get them sized to fit around the brakes. I wasn't willing to settle on something else simply because it does fit behind the stock wheels.

There are no problems with the machining on this hat, it fits perfectly. I used some scotchbright pad to remove all the rust on the factory hub and it fit like a glove.

It doesn't matter what you think - see (A) above.


I'm not a brake system expert, but even I realize that "common sense" isn't good enough to evaluate braking systems. As you said earlier, these are complicated systems where many different parts of the car must be evaluated and accounted for.

First problem here is that, if you had been paying attention, this kit uses a 13" two-piece rotor, not 14". Additionally brake bias would be more upset by putting a caliper on the front that the master cylinder wasn't capable of driving. This kit was designed to be within the stock master cylinder operating range. As far as the rear system, I am going to be upgrading it to the Mintex Xtreme pads as soon as they are available (a few weeks hopefully)

This is, again, incorrect. It is also pretty inflammatory. You don't have any experience with this system, I do. I have had ZERO problems in any conditions thus far, including hard braking with ABS intervention. For more on that system see below...

Apparently this was a question...here's the answer from the Mazda RX-8 Owners Manual (emphasis added):

"The ABS control unit continuously monitors the speed of each wheel. If one
is about to lock up, the ABS responds by automatically releasing and reapplying
that wheel’s brake."

I'm not trying to turn this into an AP versus the world thread. The quality of AP Racing speaks for itself. I have no problem with Brembo - they are a very high profile manufacturer with many OEM contracts. If anyone has questions regarding this kit then call Chris at STILLEN, he knows his stuff.

PhotoMunkey

I said it's a 15 y/o (or older) Brembo design. Regardless of who makes it now. The aluminum ingots are probably purchased from Brembo, as they create their own alloys. The engineering behind the caliper (which let's face it, IS just a street car caliper, not one of AP Racing's famous race car setups) is from Brembo.

I did say improperly machined, but meant improperly measured and you thoroughly chastized me for it. Well done. I would have liked to know about the fit, and the movement towards the upright (also known as a "strut", or were you referring to the upper portion of the spindle?) about 4 pages ago in this thread. What's the weight difference between the "beefy" CP6600 caliper and the OEM caliper. What's the weight difference between the rotors, including the 15mm spacer? Where can we find the published numbers on stopping distances from 60 mph or 80 mph or 100 mph? Did Stillen create the adapters and hats, and just purchase rotors and calipers from AP Racing, or is it 100% AP Racing's work?

This is the problem with BBK hype. Does it work better? In theory if brake torque increases, and the tire's mechanical grip doesn't, then the ABS system will come on earlier, leading to worse stopping distances.

Hi there! Remember this link to YOUR kit, from YOUR post, which I dutifully clicked and read, which is on sale in February: http://www.stillen.com/product.asp?i...ing&make=mazda

Note on this page that it says 14" two-piece rotors... on both shown kits. No 13" option. I'm not saying that you don't have 13" rotors. Having them would keep them within 5% of OEM, and in line with SCCA regulations. With 13" rotors, and 4 dinky, meant-for-stock-master-cylinder pistons then you've just paid that money for the same brake leverage as stock, with the same clamping force as stock. Your only upgrade is to the rotors (2-piece) and the pad compound. As people have pointed out, you could have done the same with Racing Brakes' two-piece rotors and any number of higher coefficient of friction pads for the stock calipers.

Oh wait, this is a kit designed for "performance" consisting of "high-quality parts". I'm sure this includes a high-quality spacer too. Please note sarcasm here too.

[quote-Silverarrow]This is, again, incorrect. It is also pretty inflammatory. You don't have any experience with this system, I do. I have had ZERO problems in any conditions thus far, including hard braking with ABS intervention. [/quote]

But how would you KNOW that the braking distance has improved? If you HAVE had ABS intervention with your stock wheels and tires (an assumption since you said stock wheels) and this kit, would you have stopped shorter without ABS intervention with the stock calipers, pads, and rotors? Since they're 13" rotors (virtually same as stock) with the same hydraulic "footprint" as stock effectively, as far as ABS is concerned, aside from better pads (perhaps, but I don't know here) these are the same as a stock brake. With slots, and/or drilled rotors, they'll should handle high heat much better than stock. Realistically though, has your braking performance really improved? Or has pedal feel and initial bite improved? To the car, this is only a pad and braided stainless steel line upgrade, based on your provided information, coupled with some new fluid and proper bleeding techniques. Could I change my OEM pads for Mazdaspeed pieces, and install Goodridge lines and equal your stopping power? Yes, undoubtably. Would I have fade issues with my stock rotors. Yup, sure would. Would probably bake the hell out of those rotors! But, for the roughly $1900 bones I'd be saving, I could buy some bitchin' brake ducting and two-piece OEM-sized rotors with slots to vent the outgassing. Could probably have my name etched on the hats (not "hubs" mea culpa) too!

4-Channel ABS... cool! That is excellent information. I wasn't aware of its ability to control each wheel independant of the others. Is that on all RX-8s, or just the ones with the Traction Control System? I'll have to look in my manual and see. I have a non-TCS base 6MT.

Hmmmm, let's look at the list of Brembo OEM contracts... Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Dodge, Chrylser. I think technically that might be ALL of the OEM contracts, aside from Toyota (do they even produce a sports car now?), Honda, and GM.

Let's not forget their numerous world championships. Formula One, NASCAR, World Speed Challenge, IMSA, SCCA, etc. Too many to count. On top of that, they make race teams BUY their brakes. No freebies. Brakes are chosen by the drivers, and more drivers choose Brembo. Jeez, I sound like a commercial!

I am busting your nuts on this because, first you didn't post information to back up your "AP Racing isn't owned by Brembo" post, then when you did respond with more than "Nuh-uh" you didn't bother with anything other than a weak debating trick.

I'm all for sharing information here. Valid, reasonable information. All I can see at this moment is that you've bought the BBK marketing hype from Stillen (as opposed to from Stoptech) about AP Racing, and you've spent a lot of money to upgrade your rotors, pads, and brake lines.

Silverarrow

Again, there is no slight to Brembo in this thread. I do want to point out that thus far, aside from the financial aspect, your info on AP Racing has been incorrect. Most if not all of the virtues regarding championships you have attributed to Brembo can also be said of AP Racing. You're an automotive journalist, call AP Racing and get the facts from them, perhaps you can sit in the same room as their head honcho and get your info direct from the source.

I can tell you that I posted the weights earlier in the thread:

AP Racing CP6600 Caliper with pads, mounting bracket and hardware: 9lbs

330mm 2 Piece Cross Drilled and Slotted Rotors: 17lbs

The spacers are only there as a short term solution until I have enough saved up to purchase wheels. I do not have a weight on them. I would venture a guess that they are under 2lbs with hardware.

The rotors with this kit are 13" not 14" that is a misprint on their website.

As far as the ABS goes, I too have a base 6mt (I didn't want the sunroof cut too much into my headroom and good luck trying to wear a helmet with that option!). I believe this ABS setup goes into any 8 regardless of trim level.

I'll definitely be posting up more info once I get out to the track. Initial bite has increased even on the street.

And yes, you do sound like a Brembo commercial...on wordcount alone perhaps you can obtain some type of consideration for the project you are trying to get rolling on your own big brake setup - though you seem to be arguing pretty doggedly against them, perhaps it is just argument for arguments sake.

PhotoMunkey

Brembo is a semi-sponsor of mine, but I haven't taken that plunge yet because it would upgrade just the fronts, and not the rears. I'm in contact with a company who would mfg a product based on Wilwood calipers and rotors, with their own machined hats and mounts, but with the issues with the rear e-brake cables, and the lack of overall room in the front to fit a wide caliper, I'm questioning how much brake this car needs. If the issue stems from heat dissapation and pad compound, I think that it can be solved with new 2-piece rotors, a new backing plate, and upgraded pad compounds. I know we can better the weight of the Racing Brake rear rotors, and that seems to be a key point with the RX-8; reducing rotational weight.

If the rotor is only 13" in the front, and stock is 12.8", can it really be called a "big" brake kit? On the other hand, if a more robust (thicker) rotor can be used, while still saving some weight, with lighter calipers, and better pad compounds, coupled with a new two-piece rear rotor and better pads there, then perhaps this total package solution would be the way to go.

I'm not over 6', but weight and helmet use dictated no sunroof. Also, here in the desert, all you do is cook yourself most of the year with a sunroof.

I once swapped rear pads on my Mustang GT (with the installation of a Brembo Cobra R 13" front brake kit) from stock to Hawk HP, with little difference. I then went to Hawk HP+, and there was a HUGE difference. The car went from nose-dive stops, which felt impressive, to more balanced 4-wheel stops. The Brembos alone were so much better than the barely adequate stock Ford crap that I couldn't believe I was using the same master cylinder. By the time I was finished with that project, the braking was terrific, but I never went the extra distance and installed rear Brembos. There was no need to.

If you stick with 18" wheels, I've seen the 18x9.5" 38mm offset Enkei RPF1s fit over the front Brembo kit. One of the SCCA racing guys is running them. They look killer! On top of that, they weigh only 18.6 lbs each! I have the 19x8.5" 42mm offset version on my car, and at 19.8 lbs each, the weight savings over the stock wheels can really be noticed! Of course, with that big ol' Greddy kit on your car, you could mount up some bling-bling and not really care! I've tried the Greddy kit at 6 lbs of boost and it's a real hoot. I'm holding out for the opportunity to test Paul Richard's Axial Flow system soon for a magazine too!

Silverarrow

Yeah, those Enkeis seem to be the hot ticket, I'll have to check out the 38mm offset and see if it will fit with this setup. Another rim I am considering is the OZ Superlegerra. I don't think i want to go bigger than 18" and I would like to have the same size on all 4 coners for rotation to get as much use as possible out of the tires at track days. I'm also hoping to cornerweight this thing before the next track day.

That axial flow setup is definitely interesting, I look forward to seeing what it can do.

Marietta 8

Hmmm, most of the front runners I 've seen in Rolex GT, DP, and ALMS are running ALCON brakes or AP but mostly ALCON. Oh well.........







But how would you KNOW that the braking distance has improved? If you HAVE had ABS intervention with your stock wheels and tires (an assumption since you said stock wheels) and this kit, would you have stopped shorter without ABS intervention with the stock calipers, pads, and rotors? Since they're 13" rotors (virtually same as stock) with the same hydraulic "footprint" as stock effectively, as far as ABS is concerned, aside from better pads (perhaps, but I don't know here) these are the same as a stock brake. With slots, and/or drilled rotors, they'll should handle high heat much better than stock. Realistically though, has your braking performance really improved? Or has pedal feel and initial bite improved? To the car, this is only a pad and braided stainless steel line upgrade, based on your provided information, coupled with some new fluid and proper bleeding techniques. Could I change my OEM pads for Mazdaspeed pieces, and install Goodridge lines and equal your stopping power? Yes, undoubtably. Would I have fade issues with my stock rotors. Yup, sure would. Would probably bake the hell out of those rotors! But, for the roughly $1900 bones I'd be saving, I could buy some bitchin' brake ducting and two-piece OEM-sized rotors with slots to vent the outgassing. Could probably have my name etched on the hats (not "hubs" mea culpa) too!



4-Channel ABS... cool! That is excellent information. I wasn't aware of its ability to control each wheel independant of the others. Is that on all RX-8s, or just the ones with the Traction Control System? I'll have to look in my manual and see. I have a non-TCS base 6MT.


Hmmmm, let's look at the list of Brembo OEM contracts... Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Ford, Dodge, Chrylser. I think technically that might be ALL of the OEM contracts, aside from Toyota (do they even produce a sports car now?), Honda, and GM.

Let's not forget their numerous world championships. Formula One, NASCAR, World Speed Challenge, IMSA, SCCA, etc. Too many to count. On top of that, they make race teams BUY their brakes. No freebies. Brakes are chosen by the drivers, and more drivers choose Brembo. Jeez, I sound like a commercial!

I am busting your nuts on this because, first you didn't post information to back up your "AP Racing isn't owned by Brembo" post, then when you did respond with more than "Nuh-uh" you didn't bother with anything other than a weak debating trick.

I'm all for sharing information here. Valid, reasonable information. All I can see at this moment is that you've bought the BBK marketing hype from Stillen (as opposed to from Stoptech) about AP Racing, and you've spent a lot of money to upgrade your rotors, pads, and brake lines.[/QUOTE]

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

fyi, the Enkei RPF1 18 x 9.5 wheels with 45mm offset have less caliper clearance than the the OE wheels, I worked with RacingBrake to offer an alternate RX-8 Enkei wheel BBK that clears the Enkei RPF1 spokes without spacers

on the 38mm offset version of this wheel Enkei just machines more material off the hub pad, i.e. you lose an additional 7mm of caliper/wheel clearance. This offset will still clear RB's Enkei wheel BBK for the RX-8, but in your case you're going to need at least an additional 15mm spacer width (on top of the other one you already have) to clear this wheel with the AP caliper from what I've read so far

all of this is documented on the forum, you guys haven't even done the basic research before heading off in this direction ....

unlike Charlie though I don't have a LS1 engine option so the weight loss of the RacingBrake setup was worth the cost over the added weight of what he suggested because additional ducting isn't needed with it, nor in my case is it allowed

canaryrx8

iTrader: (3)

wow, so can anyone recommend some good rotors?

PhotoMunkey

I'm supposed to be out in LA next week, if you want to try one of my 19x8.5" 42mm offset Enkeis on it. I'm using 8.5" on all 4 corners, and 245/35-19 tires. Same rational...

I'd think that this is physically impossible. If you took off 7 mm from my 42 mm hub pad, there'd be almost nothing left for the lug nuts to tighten down on. There should be a set thickness required for the hub pad.

Silverarrow

Team RX8 - It was my understanding that with a lower offset wheel there was MORE pad material. Looking at the RPF1's i think the lower clearance is not due to the lower offset number but because the spokes seem to have less of a curve to them than the stock wheels.

I'm not locked down to any wheel yet, and believe me, I have plenty of time to figure that out while I am accumulating the funds. I have seen a set of prodrives on an RX8 running around near MNAO (a development car??) and they have a TON of clearance. I'm going to look into what offsets those may be as well.

RotorManiac

I dont have the time to read the whole page right now... quick examples that cross my mind straight away: the maserati 3200gt a few years back, when it was lauched, came as a shock to the world -dead factory building a biturbo coupe with ferrari's help wow- every british mag stated 'the brakes are not up to the performance, a great disappointment from brembo'
one more, the 350Z..... definately "does NOT post the best stopping times in its production class" even the rx8 beats it by 1 foot in the stopping distance with the sucky-looking sigle-piston calipers lol especially for the Z I expected better breaking with those huge golden brembos it comes with...

PhotoMunkey

I found a stopping distance of 114 ft from 60 mph for the RX-8, and 119 ft for the base 350Z, which weighs more and doesn't come with Brembos. I can't find a listing for the Track model, which is the only one factory-equipped with Brembos.

PhotoMunkey

A quote I did find about the Maserati though: "This throttle action was softened in the slightly more urbane automatic version, but it too shared the odd brakes. For the first part of the pedal travel not a great deal happened and then suddenly youd be hanging off your seatbelts, eyeballs out on stalks. Smooth driving took a very delicate touch in the pedal box."

Certainly doesn't SOUND like the Brembos sucked in the "whoa department". The entire article here: http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...t-2004302.html

One more from Nicholas Frankl, describing his trip "up the hill" at Goodwood in a 2000 Maserati 3200GT: "The Car accelerates very quickly, particularly as this is an automatic, up to 3rd the speedo reads 85mph and the tree-lined track is becoming a green and brown blur. We're already at the two right handers, I dive on the brakes in anger for the first time. The retardation is instant and impressive, feel through the pedal good, grip excellent..."

You can read the rest here: http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicl...ti_3200gt.html

60 seconds up Goodwood's famous driveway, in front of crowds, in a car he'd never driven before, and no complaints about the brakes. Yup, sure sounds like he bombed the brakes to me.

That's two provable quotes to your "every British magazine" reference. Got any more?

Somewhere I seem to recall that the Track model 350Z stopped from 60 mph in 112 feet, and more importantly, could repeatedly do this with minimal fade. I just can't FIND it tonight.