RX8_Buckeye

Wow all this information is a bit overwhelming. I didn't think there was this much to jacking the car and removing and replacing lug nuts. On previous cars I have owned, I just used the crappy jack and tools that came with the car to loosen and tighten lug nuts. I didn't use a torque wrench, and I never had any problems. Was I just lucky, or are the risks of over/under-tightening and improperly jacking being overstated here?

Has anybody out there had success switching sets of wheels/tires using just the basic tools that came with the car and winter wheels/tires? It seems to me that just using common sense would be adequate: don't overtighten the lugs, be careful when jacking, etc.

MEGAREDS, don't you think the basic tools that came with the car would have worked just fine if the people who installed your winter wheels hadn't damaged the key?

rx8cited

Without a torque wrench, how do you not overtighten the lugs nuts, but still have them tight enough to not work themselves loose?

A torque wrench takes the guess work out if it. I'd like to hear your common sense method of accomplishing that.

rx8cited

beachdog

The floor jack can be used on the rails, but use an adapter made for this purpose. There is one shown earlier in this thread. Use the floor jack in exactly the same spot the factory jack would go. Don't be tempted to place it in the middle and lift the whole side at once.

The best place for the stands are under actual frame members. Typically, the strongest places will be at the suspension attachment points, just make sure that you are under the stationary part, not the moving part.

The jack stands should be at the minimum height necessary to do the work you are going to do. ie, removing a tire/wheel, just enough to get the tire off the ground. Higher if you are doing mechanical work and will actually need to get under the car. It all comes down to stability. The higher you set the stands the riskier it is to get under the car. Do not put one end of the car up on those stands and the other on the jack and then get underneath. If you need to lift the whole car, put ramps at one end and the stands at the other.


You will probably have to position the jack handle out through the wheel well in order to get enough range of motion to pump it. Only do this if you are working on a very smooth surface like a garage floor and make sure that the jack's wheels are aligned so the jack can slide forward as it lifts otherwise the jack's saddle will slide out from under the diff and damage you and the car.

You might want to start the whole process by using a hint also found earlier in this thread. Cut 4 pieces of 2x6 or 2x8 about a foot long. Place each directly in front of each tire and drive onto them. This will give about 1 1/2 inches additional clearance.

RX8_Buckeye

Without a torque wrench, how do you not overtighten the lugs nuts, but still have them tight enough to not work themselves loose?

I don't know, I just tightened them until I felt like there was too much resistance. I never had any problems with them coming loose or taking them off. I agree that the "right" way to do it is to use a torque wrench, but do you really think that most people who rotate their own wheels have a torque wrench in the garage? I'm not much of a do-it-yourself type of person, but I'm trying to learn. I would have no problem buying all these tools if things weren't tight financially.

beachdog

Mazda increased the torque spec for wheel lug tightening in order to eliminate noises from under tightened lugs. Yes, to a degree you were lucky. Older cars with drum brakes and steel wheels could be overtightened quite a lot without causing damage other than breaking off the stud and they were easy to replace. On a car like the eight, you have aluminum wheels and steel lugs and studs. You can readily damage the wheels by overtightening.

The tools that came with the car are for emergency purposes. If you want to know how good they are, just look at all the legal disclaimers the owner's manual has on their use. Why would you want to risk personal injury and cause damage to the car for about $100 worth of tools?

If you don't want to spring for the jack and stands, at least get the torque wrench.

MEGAREDS

I got a PM from someone who is apprehensive about how to handle winter/summer wheel issues. If you are like me and have no experience with this stuff, I totally agree it is stressful. If your concern is what wheels to buy, ask around and read the posts... by now there are dozens and you can definitely see consensus developing on what to buy. For example, I think it is generally agreed from what I've been reading that you don't want to put 18" winter wheels on the 8. 17" are lighter, cheaper and work better because they dig in snow. People also seem willing to not worry about the lack of pressure sensors on winter wheels. Until the prices drop and there are more options on rims with cut-outs for pressure sensors, I say don't sweat it... but I digress.

I have three suggestions for anyone who finds himself lost on install issues:

Option 1: Spend the money on good tools, go very slow. I did not perfectly follow my own advice here -- my cheap jack is really cheap, but otherwise things worked out. The key was being careful. I admit that I didn't like doing it alone... which brings me to Option 2...

Option 2: I am sure that if I had asked, the local shop that I found through TireRack would have used a torque wrench on the install instead of an air gun, and done it carefully - I just didn't know enough to ask and didn't take the time either. The guys there were pretty nice; in fact, one asked if he could look under the hood and gave a mini-lecture to one of his friends about the rotors. I was beaming. If you buy wheels from somewhere like TireRack, they will help you find a local shop; give the shop a call and explain that you would like the wheels put on without an air gun and would appreciate it if they would let you watch so you can get an understand of how things work (not to watch them so you can be sure they do it right -- they way you ask here really matters!).

Option 3: There are lots of people on this forum with tools and a helpful attitude. If you want to figure out how to work with your wheels, you might just post a request for help and see if someone won't offer assistance. I am not someone who feels I could confidently help someone with real problems, but anyone who wants to borrow my breaker bar and torque wrench is welcome to stop by.

Sooner of later I'm going to paint my calipers... it's only a matter of time...

rx8cited

LOL :D! I find it hilarious that you're driving a loaded RX-8: "2004 RX-8 GT, Titanium, Appearance Package, Spoiler, 35% Tint" and complaining about things being financially tight . Take care of your baby and she'll take care of you.

You can pick up a decent Craftsman torque wrench like this one for around $50 or $60 on sale. As previously mentioned, it will prevent your from possibly warping your alloy wheels or brake rotors. Aside from using it to swap my wheels, I also used it recently when I replaced my transmission and differential fluids.

rx8cited

RX8_Buckeye

Good points. I agree that I should probably play it safe and buy the tools.

Well my wife and I are fresh out of college making good money, so we decided to buy a house (if you haven't bought a house yet, you will find out that they are money pits!). Then came the RX-8. Then my wife was jealous so we leased her a loaded Mountaineer. Our car payments and insurance are now more than our mortgage! Add to that the fact that we had significant credit card debt from our wedding, honeymoon, furniture for the new house, etc. and I think you'll start to see what I mean. No doubt it's my own fault, but that's just the way things are right now--financially tight.

Atacdad

House Rich/Cash Poor....


Look back in 15 years, you'll wonder what you were thinking...

RX8_Buckeye

You think we'll regret buying a house and new cars so quickly? I might agree with you about the new cars, but how can you go wrong with investing in a house, especially with rates so low? It's better than throwing away your money towards rent.

Even though we're "cash poor" right now, I love my '8 and our house. The only thing I'd do differently is wait 2 extra weeks to by the '8 so I could have paid the S-plan price!!! Ford NA didn't authorize S-plan sales until 2 weeks after I paid close to MSRP for the car!!!! I could be saving $70/month on my payment. Oh well, hind sight is 20/20.

G8rboy

A couple of new cars might not be the smartest thing (I can't talk either), but you only live once. Buying a house at anytime though is about the best investment you can make if you can afford it. I only wish I didn't wait so long- years of paying rent, missing out on tax-deductable interest, and not building up equity in your own home is the real money pit. My first home I lived in 3 years and sold for $75k over purchase price, and this home I've been in less than 2 years and it has appreciated about $60k so far (not counting the basement I finished and the pool we're installing this year). When you make $50k, $100k or more profit on the sale of your house years down the road, you'll be damn glad you made that choice. Good for you...

RX8_Buckeye

Holy crap! That's fantastic for you. You must have purchased in the right areas. Unfortunately, I don't expect that we'll have nearly that much appreciation, because we don't live in one of the "nicer" suburbs around here and we only plan to stay in this house for a few years. I'm sure it will turn out to be a worthwhile investment, however, considering that rent would be almost as much as our mortgage payment.

G8rboy

Exactly- I've got some family members that have rented a townhouse for 8 years (paying off the owners mortgage), and now they've been renting a house for more than my mortgage payment for 3+ years. Crazy...

Atacdad

Lets not be jumping to conclusions, I didn't say it was good or bad...it will be whatever it will be. My wife and I "blew" our savings, 8 months after getting married, on a trip to Hawaii.

Looking back, it was one of those "can't pass this up" occasions and, in retrospect, we did the right thing...good memories last a lifetime. And anyway, get the toys before the kids...cause you don't get them after for awhile, unless you're lucky.

AT

RX8_Buckeye

I didn't mean to sound like I was agitated. I was just trying to understand what you meant by "you'll wonder what you were thinking...". I'm young and lack the experience that you have in these matters, so I'd welcome any advice you might have.

TybeeRX-8

For whatever it's worth, I have a WalMart floor jack (2k lbs.) that I've used to rotate tires on my Miata. Per some advice on Miata.net, I put a 2x4, about 3ft. long on the jack saddle and place this just inside the frame rail under the side mirror of the car. From here I can raise the whole side of the car (use wheel chocks on the opp. side) and rotate front to back. While doing this, I also put the jack stands at the jack points and just let the car barely sit on them as a safety measure. But, it's important that novices know to loosen the lugs BEFORE jacking.
This works for me and makes the change quick and easy. I haven't had to do it on the 8 yet but will likely use the same method.

Atacdad

Found this site selling jack pad adaptors ...the one with the X in it looks like the bomb!

http://www.protechproducts.net/images/JACKPADS.asp

gusmahler

I used to rotate the tires myself on my previous tires. But that car came with a spare tire. I would lift up the back corner . Take off the tire. Put on the spare. Lower car. Lift up the front corner. Put the rear tire in the front. Lower car. Lift up rear corner. Remove spare. Put front tire on the rear. Repeat for other side of car.

But my RX-8 doesn't have a spare. So it looks like I have to put one entire side of the car on jack stands before I can switch tires. Correct?

G8rboy

Yep- but it's much quicker that way. I do all 4 corners on jackstands... very quick.

124Spider

Rather than start a new thread (and get flamed with "the search is your friend" responses), I thought it best to continue this one....

It is not clear to me where the front cross-member is, or where the rear differential housing is, from the pictures in the manual. I used my floor jack on what I think is the cross-member--a thing just aft of the under-plate, in the center of the car, and it didn't give out on me. Likewise, I used what looked like was being used in the picture for the differential, but it didn't look like any differential I've ever seen, and it was not centered. Can someone post pictures of the actual points for jacking up the front and rear?

Thanks a lot.

RX8_Buckeye

I'll look for some pictures when I have time, but for now I can tell you that the front crossmember is directly between the two front wheels. I drove my car up on some ramps and examined the front underbody before I jacked it up. The jacking point (for a hydraulic floor jack) is essentially centered between the front wheels. There is an embossment in the very center of the crossmember that is roughly 1"x1"--place the saddle of the floor jack on this embossment.

The differential doesn't look like your typical rear diff unit. If I recall correctly, it is not painted, and the case is ribbed on the bottom side. It is not a rounded unit like many differentials. Once again, I suggest driving the rear tires onto some cheap plastic ramps (you can get some for less than $20 at Sears) and have a look around. Follow the rear half shafts from the wheels to the differential. You can't miss it.

124Spider

Thanks, that's very helpful!

rotarenvy

what is anit-seize? every torque wrench I have used TELLS you to put a drop or two of oil on the threads. my wheel instructions said the same.
the reason for it is if the nut 'grabs' or is not moving smothly the torque wrench will trigger early with the 'click' it's the same reasoning behind why you don't bounce on a torque wrench and should apply the moment in one smooth motion.

rx8cited

Here's what McGard, manufacturer of lug nuts and wheel locks says From Installation of McGard Lock Nuts/Lock Bolts section:"McGard does not recommend the use of oil, grease or anti-seize lubricants on threads. Spraying the threads with a greaseless lubricant (such as LPS-1) once a year is recommended."

MA-TIM

In the past when I couldn't get a jack under a car, I've just put some wooden blocks or bricks in front of the tires and drove up on them to get another inch or two under the car. It's much cheaper than buying a low profile jack.