red_rx8

When I put on my snow tires/wheels, would people recommend using anti-seize on the lugs? I know you aren't suppose to use grease on the lugs, but the Mazda mechanic wasn't so keen on using anti-seize. What does everyone think? Use it or not?

syntrix

Unless you are seeing a lot of corrosion, I'd stay away from using it.

What it does is affect the torque going down on the threaded shaft. I forget what the value is, but it has to do with stretch of bolts and holding/clamping force.

**IF** you decide to do it, check your lugs with a good torque wrench every few days.

eccles

I've always used anti-seize on my Miata lugs after four seized up on separate occasions. I thought the first couple were probably my fault, and started taking more care when I swapped my wheels before and after autocrosses, but two more still seized. After I started using anti-seize, I never had another problem.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

First thing I do when I buy a car ( usually used!) is take off the wheels and put 'Never-Seize' on the lugs.

Tip #1-Better an afternoon in my driveway, than an interesting evening at the side of some road, in the rain, swearing at the two lug nuts that won't come off!
If you always get your wheel & tire work done at some shop, then let them zip the nuts on and off with their air guns, but if you ever want to swap them yourself, you had better take the nuts off, coat the stud threads with anti-seize, and torque them properly at home. We use anti-seize on every bolt at work, (hydrogen intensive synthetic crude oil refinery) some as big as your leg, and it works well. Don't worry about your lugs loosening, it is not 'grease', it chemically prevents the bonding corrosion.

And tip #2- put a little on the wheel face that meets the rotor, so the two don't mate for life!

Tip #3 would have to be "never take advice from some 'tool' on the internet!

S

eccles

While anti-seize's primary role is not as a lubricant, it does lubricate the threads to some extent. Specified tightening torques are designed to put a specific amout of pull or clamping pressure on the lugs, and lubricating the stud/nut interface does have some impact on the ratio of torque to pressure.

That said, by always torquing my lugs to the upper end of the specified range (85lb-ft on the Miata) when using anti-seize, I've never had a problem with broken or seized lugs nor with any nuts working loose.

PUR NRG

My understanding is anti-sieze (or any other kind of lubricant) is a major no-no on lug nuts. Torque ratings are designed to put a specific amount of "pull" on a bolt to keep it secure. Although anti-sieze is not designed as a lubricant it does act like one to a certian degree. This means for a given torque, it's actually pulling more than a non-lubricated lug nut. If this exceeds the bolt's temporary elasticity then the bolt will become permanently stretched. This can lead to bolt failure.

Eccles, consider yourself lucky you haven't had any problems in this regard. Lubricating the lug nut and torqueing to the high end of the range compounds the problem.
________
Iolite Case

eccles

I guess I must be very lucky then, because I always did the same thing on my RX-3's and -7 Down Under. Between them, they did over 300,000 miles and many thousands of track laps, and I never had a stud failure. The only failures I have ever had were on the Miata before I started using anti-seize.

I agree that in theory it's probably bad practice, but my personal experience has been just the opposite.

tpryor

I'm right there with you, eccles. I have done this since breaking off a stud on a 90 Miata, and have yet to have an issue. That encompasses a 90 Miata, 92 Integra, 93 Civic SI, 97 Miata, 99 10AE Miata, 2001 Volvo S60 T5, and now the RX-8.

Sputnik

I would caution against using anti-sieze. I never had problems with a lug-nut seizing, but I put it on my lugs one time anyway. The wheels were torqued and double-checked as normal before I hit the track, and after one lap, my right-front wheel almost came off at 100 mph on the banking of Texas Motor Speedway. Several lug nuts fell off on the slow crawl back to the garage, and the others were finger loose. I spent the rest of the session cleaning the studs with Windex, and came in twice on the next session to check the torque (NASCAR tracks done got some big-*** walls on their racetracks).

I never had a problem with torque before or since (I have always re-torqued my wheels after someone has used an air gun on them, to keep the wheels from being damaged, and to keep the brake rotors from warping), and I never had any issue with lugnuts siezing, so I never used anti-sieze on lugnuts again.

---jps

Gord96BRG

I'm in the "I use anti-sieze" camp - been using it for over 10 years, once a year on vehicles where I change wheels twice/year (spring/fall swap of winter and summer tires). I've done a bunch of track days (Miata) as well, and never had a problem with a lug nut loosening.

Also like StealthTL, I smear a very thin coat on the wheel face and around the centre bore lip - I had an Audi wheel stick like that after only 3 months, there was a bit of corrosion between the wheel and hub that meant that while the lug bolts came out easily, it was very difficult to free the wheel.

Regards,
Gordon

eccles

I have to ask... did you perhaps put anti-seize on the nut/wheel friction surface as well as on the threads? I've only ever used it on the stud threads.

red_rx8

Thanks for the postings and input. Things are clear as mud as to the use of anti-sieze. I think I'm going to do an experiment, left side doesn't get any anti-sieze and the right side does. I'll keep track of the number of lost wheels versus the number of lug nuts broken.

Thanks, everyone!

Superfan

I always use a little PB Blaster on the lugs. I had a lug/stud seize and break on my 79 RX-7 a while ago. I had to tow the car back in order to get it removed.

Sputnik

Na. I put a little on my finger, ran the finger over each of the studs once (leaving a smidge in the threads on one side), wiped off my finger (I know I did 'cause working with anti-sieze on your fingers is like working with oil on your fingers), put the wheel on, and then the nuts.

---jps

Nubo

I side with the "no lubricant" camp. The mfr torque specs are for dry bolts. Regular tire rotation should help keep things from mating. My biggest problem with removing lugs was always after some goon used an impact wrench. Now I always re-torque by hand after new tires or any service where wheels are removed.

maxcooper

I always use anti-sieze both on the lug nuts and on the wheel/hub mating surfaces. Most of the people I go to track events with do this, too. I've never had any lugs come loose.

-Max

oosik

MASTINOX

If you're looking for corrosion prevention, mastinox is what you are looking. I work on military helicopters and pretty much everything that gets torq'd down has a coating of mastinox on it.

Here's a link to the only place I could find where you might be able to get it from. We have anti-seize, but it never gets used in situations where something is torq'd AND critical to saftey of flight, just a thought!


http://www.dynamation.com/dylubr.htm

DZeckhausen

Check out http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/rec/...ail.cfm?ID=417 and then do a quick search for mastinox <CTRL-S>. I'm not so sure I would want to use this stuff on my helicopter, although it might be great for your lugs. Personally, I've been using Permatex Anti-Seize on my own and my customers' cars for years.

I've seen several folks mention that they don't use "lubricants" on their lugs, lest the torque values be screwed up. Specifically, a lubricant will cause increased thread distortion for any given torque, possibly to the point of permanent damage. Torque tables are published for various fastener sizes and materials and have an alternate (lower) torque value for lubricated threads.

However, Anti-Seize is not a lubricant and does not cause as much change in the thread distortion as a product labeled as a lubricant. In addition, it provides more consistancy to the actual torque applied to a given bolt. For example, five bolts with anti-seize that are torqued to 80 lb-ft will generate more uniform clamping force than five dry bolts torqued to the same value. This is because the anti-seize smooths out some of the irregularity of the torque caused by the roughness of the fasteners and prevents "false" clicks of the torque wrench. If you could see a torque readout graph while tightening the faastener, you would see smoother lines, rather than the torque spikes of a dry fastener.

If you use anti-seize, I suggest going for the middle of the range of torque values, rather than the upper value. The slight lubricating effect of the anti-seize, combined with the +/- error of your torque wrench, might just put you over the top with your actual torque value. Keep in mind however, we are tlking about wheel bolts here and not an engine rebuild. There is a wide range of torque values you could apply to a wheel bolt without screwing something up. If not, then every time some idiot with an air wrench torqued your bolts to 200 lb-ft, your wheels would fall off!