mikelindsay

EDIT: This is a 2004 Rx-8

Hello,

First of all I just want to say that cars are in no way my forte and if any more information is needed I will gladly provide it if possible. This car is also not mine but my girlfriends however I'm paying for all the repairs so I would like to exhaust all my options before handing over my credit card again. This is all information I've gotten from other people so I'm relaying what they have told me to you guys. Now I'll give you all a brief run down of the events that have unfolded and the information I have obtained thus far.


My girlfriend was driving her car down the interstate about a month ago going about 55mph when all of a sudden her car started jerking and she held the accelerator down and it would not accelerate past that. She ended up making it to a friends house and left it there for about 2 days without touching it. When she came back it started up fine but her engine light would still come on intermittently when started. A day or so later she took it to Advance Auto Parts to get the error code which ended up being something along the lines of 'Do Tuneup.' She ended up driving it for about another week or so before the major issue began.

Two weeks ago yesterday she was driving down a road and was accelerating at a stop light going about 5 mph and her car started jerking again and then cut off. She pulled it over to the side of the road and it would crank but not fire up. Luckily (or so I thought) she had broken down right outside Cramer Tire. She pushed it there and they ended up telling her that she needed the following over the course of 2 weeks to get it up and running again:

• Catalytic Converter - This was apparently the main issue that it had got clogged beyond repair
• 1 Ignition Coil - Unsure why they needed to replace I'm assuming because she wasn't getting spark
• New Spark Plug wires - I assume they needed these to help troubleshoot getting spark
• New Spark Plugs - Her old ones were fairly recent but they said the other ones would not spark correctly
• A pully of some sort - I believe this was an unrelated issue however I find all details important
• Serpentine Belt - I believe this was an unrelated issue however I find all details important

When she first went into Cramer they told her that she needed to buy a Catalytic Converter, Pully and Serpentine Belt. She then called them back a few days later and they informed her that she need a new Ignition Coil and new Spark Plug Wires. Then about 4 or 5 days went by without an update so we went up there and they said it was about done but she needed new Spark Plugs because the other ones were wet or something along those lines so they wouldn't spark. She brought new Spark Plugs up there and then waited a day without a call back. Yesterday she called them and they told her they "think" she may need to get her memory reflashed on her car and we would have to get it towed out of there. We ended up going up there after that to pay for the service they did and to get a few more details on it which it seemed they didn't have much to tell us at the time other then they "think" the car may have lost timing somewhere but are not positive.

Today we went to Tidewater Auto Electric because we were told by a few different people that they specialize in issues such as this. They told us that they were unsure that the car needing to be reprogrammed was the issue and told us that we should go up there and push the car out of their garage and attempt something. They said if that didn't work we could have it towed there and they would take a look at it. They said it will end up costing me a minimum of about $300 between diagnosing it and reprogramming it if that's the issue and more if it's not. That's not including getting it towed.


This is what they had told us to do:

Hold the accelerator and clutch down and attempt to start it for 30 seconds then see if the oil pressure rises. They said if it does then we should do it a few times giving it 2-3 minute breaks in between starts.


We drove straight to Cramer and asked if we could push it out and try what they had told us at Tidewater Auto Electric and they obliged. They then explained all the work they had done. The mechanic said that he had replaced the Catalytic Converter, Pulley and Serpentine Belt and it would still not turn over. Then he replaced the Ignition Coil and Spark Plug wires in an attempt to get spark. He then realized that they were full of gas and attempted to clean them off but couldn't so we bought new ones. He said he removed all the Spark Plugs and attempted to crank it to clear them out. After he put the new ones in he confirmed that the car was getting spark however it was weird. He said that when he goes to crank it one leading Spark Plug and one trailing Spark Plug were firing instead of two leading spark plugs. He also said the car has compression and is getting fuel. We then pushed the car outside and attempted what the mechanic at Tidewater Auto Electric had told us.

We tried on and off for about a hour taking breaks between as to make sure we didn't burn up her starter. Every time we did it the oil pressure would slowly rise and end up being somewhere between 10-12 and it hit 14 at one point. She said it usually is at 20 when it starts and turns over. The mechanic at Cramer said that we could try putting a few drops of oil in each of the holes the spark plugs are in an attempt to get it to start and we have not tried that yet because it is getting dark and I would like some other opinions of what to do before driving back and forth over and over. That brings us to where we are at now.

I've done extensive Googling and forum reading since this issue arose and cannot find anything other than it being flooded and they said that they don't think it's flooded. Any help would be more than appreciated and sorry for the huge wall of text. I work on computers for a living and I know how crucial it is for someone to provided you as much detail about a situation as possible in order to prevent redundant troubleshooting.


If anyone is able to assist us with this and it leads to resolving her issue I will gladly wire you some cash because chances are you will have saved me hundreds of dollars. Just to reiterate, if anymore information is needed I will attempt to the best of my ability to obtain it.

Thank you

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Quite the list, but I'm sure we can help.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

If it is a MT...pull start it

mikelindsay

It has a manual transmission, would push starting it do anything differently then cranking it? Would it force the oil pressure up?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Your oil pressure is not a problem...lack of compression caused by a ton of fuel in the combustion chamber is...

Pull starting it will allow the compression to come up till it will start

Watch out for the smoke show when it starts....some may want to call the fire department

zoom44

the oil pressure indicator on the dash is a glorified idiot light. its either on or off yes you have oil pressure or no you dont. the little dashes that you are gauging 12 /14/20 from are just eye candy and have no meaning whatsoever

you are in virginia? where?

mikelindsay

Is pull starting it the same thing as push starting it but pulling it instead? I did a quick google search and all I could find for it was a guy pulling a rope under his tire to get it going.

There was faint smoke (not much just like if someone exhaled a cigarette) when we were turning the key and trying to get it to come on. Is that a good sign?

I'll remember that, thanks.


I'm located in the Chesapeake/Virginia Beach area of Virginia.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

@mikelindsay
Dude ... not trying to hijack your thread.

I'm off to help a local member who has a flooded engine. He has done all the deflood procedures including the more elaborate, remove the spark plugs, unplug the ESS and Fuel fuse and crank for 10 seconds.

As Dannobre mentioned, it's a lack of compression from all the fuel
And his car is an 04 with the old style (slower) starter motor. YIKES!

Neither one of us are "keen" on the idea of a pull start situation.

Is it possible to do the ATF decarb procedure to get some compression or to just use 2 stroke oil?

Basically this procedure is you fill the chambers with oil via the spark plug hole, quick crank and repeat.

Or has anyone ever tried quick start? (aka ether)

If we have to pull start where you guys recommend attaching the rope under the front of the car?

Sorry I normally search but this just dropped in my lap yesterday and I've not had time to search and I'm leaving in 30 minutes to help him out.

Mazurfer

Never pull started one, can't help.
FYI.....the manual says to "not" use the tie down hooks as it can damage the bumper. I'm doing searches for you, but find no real info yet.


Car I deflooded was not mine and was an auto.
Only thing I can say about the flooding is that we used the remove spark plug method you mentioned above, but I will tell you that we had to crank many, many times in ten second nursts while wiping all the weepage out of the plug holes and until we saw no more puffs of smoke(if you will) from the plug holes. Then we did it a few more times for good measure. It really needs to be dry in there..............new plugs when set to finally trying would help as well.
Don't assume that two-three times cranking with the plugs out is good enough. We tried that at first, then had to pull the plugs back out and crank as described above until we were sure everything was out of there. Probably 15 times in short bursts.

mikelindsay

Update: I'm having the car towed to my house today to buy some time to gather responses from the forums. It's also not the most adaqute place to mess with a car as there are no tools at our disposal.

Another thing that I just remembered as I was sitting at work reading through every thread on the forum. The mechanic at Tidewater Auto Electric had not looked at the car but said it may be a blown apex seal but he also said upfront that he was not a expert on rotarys. Is there any test I would be able to do to confirm this without tearing down the engine?

Do you think taking off the bumper completely be a good move if you're going to pull start it?

We tried quite a few times yesterday to start it as I mentioned above however we have not removed the spark plugs, I'll attempt that today when I have it towed to my house.


I'm going to go do this today. Does anyone have any tips for how much oil should go into the chambers? I assume just a drop or two as too much could drown out any spark.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Mazsurfer
We are currently redoing the deflood procedure.
Still getting fuel vapour on 7th crank, we will press on.

At Mike
I uses almost entire litre.

There us a thread in the procedure
Searxh for ummm ATF decarb its by Ash8

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Oh we also installed the upgraded starter

zoom44

when you crank it to deflood it you should do it with the go pedal pushed all the way to the floor. doing this while cranking disables the injectors- no fuel goes in. then when cranking to start keep your foot completely off the go pedal. have a new set of plugs on hand and ready to swap in.

push starting it will be easier if you have the room/help

mikelindsay

So to deflood it, I should take the spark plugs out, crank it then put them back in? How long should I crank it for and how will I know when it's no longer flooded if it even is? I'll take some videos today and post them of exactly what the car is doing and the sounds that it is making if that will be helpful. This is the process if I'm understanding it correctly

1. Remove Plugs
2. Wipe them off
3. Hold gas pedal down to the floor to cut off the injectors(or take out the fuel pump fuse)
4. Crank the car - for how long? and should it be done at intervals with pauses between.
5. Put them back in - How will i know when/if it's deflooded?
6. Attempt to crank with foot off the gas and clutch pushed in
7. Rinse and Repeat until it works?

I will also be able to push start it as I'm on a side road with no traffic and enough room, does that make deflooding it redundant or does it still need to be deflooded? I'm not even sure that it is flooded.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Ya pull start not an option even if we had a vehicle to do it.
We are on a busy road

We have new plugs
No more gas vapour doing a couple of cranks for goos measure

zoom44

this exactly . 10 seconds at a time no more than a minute-ish. 10 minute breaks between attempts. you'll know because it starts.
and in your case disconnect the air pump.

alfy's old thread for reference https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-do-yourself-forum-73/diy-deflooding-average-joe-plumber-182410/

wcs

iTrader: (2)

Its alive!!!!!!
Started right up no issues

Just had to clear the PO335 code for the ess

Thanks for the support everyone!

Flashwing

Alrighty, I'll do my best to address some of these items in order:

One of the more common failure situations with the RX8 is a failure in one or more ignition coils, a failure in the catalytic converter which then causes a failure in the engine.

Depending on the mileage this was probably the correct path. That said, the pulley and serpentine belt replacements are rather odd. I can see the belt, but I've never heard or seen a pulley failure.

First thing is to make sure she got the correct plugs. You would need the NGK RE7C-L and RE9B-T, two of each. If she got something different, this could be a factor in your starting issue.

These vehicles have a sophisticated ECU system...they don't "lose" timing. There are controls in place to pull timing in the event of certain situations but it is always temporary and never impacts the ability to start or idle the vehicle.

As far as I am aware, the only people who can "reprogram" the RX8's ECU is Mazda. That said, they load a flash onto the ECU which is designed by Mazda itself.

I would stay far away from this shop. If they have a method of reprogramming the ECU it either won't last or might make things worse. There are aftermarket methods of changing the ECU but none that would be used by a shop to repair the car. Performance gains? Yes.

The oil system in the RX8 is totally mechanical. There is a chain driven oil pump. Provided there are no gigantic holes in the oil system (like your oil pan missing) there will be oil pressure. There is also no way to tell what the oil pressure is without an aftermarket gauge. The RX8 oil pressure dash gauge has two modes...on and off. If the sensor sees more than 5psi of pressure it will read as normal.

This tells me two things: Either they hooked up the spark plug wires incorrectly (most likely) or there is an ECU malfunction (highly unlikely). My guess is they hooked up the spark plug wires incorrectly or hooked up the coil plugs incorrectly. Either way, they are out of the proper order.

First step is to ensure the engine is getting spark. That needs to be done by diagnosing whether the ignition coils are hooked up properly. There are links here on the forum to the factory service manual which tell you how to read the coil harness to ensure proper connection. Finally, make sure the plug wires are in the proper order. If you get spark, fuel and air then the vehicle should start.

The final step is a compression check through Mazda. If there was engine damage as a result of the failed catalytic converter then a compression test will show that. I would have that test performed before throwing any additional money at the problem. If your engine has super low compression it won't start no matter what.

zoom44

i dont know much about any of the dealers near you. are the closest ones in Richmond? If you need to order parts id recommend getting them from Rosenthal http://parts.arlingtonmazda.com/cate...2004%252d2008/

zoom44

todd any non mazda shop(or individual for that matter) can get purchase the equipment and gain the ability to perform mazda pcm programming by getting a subscription here- http://www.mazdaserviceinfo.com/PCM.aspx

Flashwing

Ah I stand corrected. I hear "reprogram" and I think of directly manipulating aspects of the ECU. Even the dealerships update flashes but nothing more.

Eh, I still don't see the value in paying $300 at the minimum for flashing the ECU in this situation. The car worked before, no reason the PCM should stop working now.

zoom44

yeah its just flooded

mikelindsay

ok, just an update

before we did anything we just attempted to confirm that there was in fact spark before attempting to deflood it. When used a spark plug tester we attempted to crank it and the first time there was a weak spark, then nothing... we only tested one of them.

We tried a few more times and then I read that it may need the ECU reset so I followed the instructions and it appeared to reset successfully. attempted again and it yielded the same results. Any ideas of what i should try?

zoom44

charge your battery

mikelindsay

I hooked my car up to the terminals while running just to verify it wasn't because the battery was draining. Is that a viable source of energy, if you guys think the battery needs to be replaced I will go out and buy one however I assume my car being connected for quite some time it would charge it enough.