MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

We did - 4 years ago.

If you really want to test the hard hot-restart, you have to let the car sit for more than a minute. Give it 3 to 10 minutes and then try a hot start.

RotoScooter

Will do. Although at the gas station when it was just average warm temp it was off only a minute or two with hard starting. On the brutality testing I had it shut off for at least 2 minutes, today I will leave it off longer.

Did, or has, anyone made any conclusions of all the tests that were made 4 years ago? And is there a post summarizing them?

If so, please give a link to that.

RS

RotoScooter

Ok, so I re-ran the brutality test, in fact I thought it might be on fire this time, a bit of smoke from the hood, so I opened it after shutdown, some smoke from residual oil burning off the block.
I did change the oil, and filter. Added 1/2 can of Seafoam to 1/2 tank of gas.

Waited ten minutes, fired right up. Are these like the results you got 4 years ago?

RS

krisad13

If your adding Seafoam i think thats a temporary fix, well it is for mine anyway. When i treated mine to seafoam a couple of months back it was fine for a couple of days then back to normal hard warm start problem. I did it again this morning (cos i wanted to trade it in for a vx220) and it's been working great all day but sure I'll have my problems back in a few days.

RotoScooter

Well all these tests were conducted 4 years ago. It seems really wasteful of everyone's time to be conducting them over, and over again. If the results from all the testing 4 years ago were compiled, summararized, and put in a post, it would make a lot more sense. I'm assuming they were random, independant tests, and performed once. twice? Who knows? Anything documented here would be a start.

So the Seafoam is knocking the carbon off, or filling score marks, providing lubrication to the rotor vanes? Or what? Most of the Seafoam is now gone, I've already gone through that tank. Cranking still seems about the same. How's your new starter working?


RS

krisad13

It didn't make alot of difference. It turns over marginally quicker, but i had the updated starter to start with. Didn't realise till i took it out, should really have done some research 1st, £300 down the pan.

I honestly don't think theres a solution to the warm start problem, after changing the plugs, leads & starter, not to mention redex, seafoam, oil and stp. Think the only thing left is new engine which is out the question for me.

aquadageo11

I have a similer problem with hot starts. But it olny happens after the cats been running a while. It will stall out an won't start for about a have hour. After mounths of trying to figure it out we came to the conclusion it was heat soak. Some of the sensors were reading abouve there limits an prevent the car from starting umtell they r in a readable range for the ecu.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Nester - you still on the int-x?


I hate that damn thing.

xsnipersgox

http://www.vimeo.com/3653485

a comparison of old and updated starter.

aquadageo11

Yep still running it. It's no that bad now that I running water meth. Oh ya 21 psi. I really think I'm about 500 whp now. Anyways I hot a new problem I trying to figure out. After I turn dsc an the anti sway the cars good. The olny problem is after I loose traction in second the dam traction control turns back on automaticaly. WTF. An I can't turn it back off tell I restart the car. But the anti sway stays off? Any answers out there

RotoScooter

That is such a great video! Very dramatic. I should be getting my new starter today. It looks easy to replace. I'm just wondering if the old slower starters may be drawing too much current. It seems like it. As soon as I switch off the starter (voltage swings up) it fires instantly.
Anyone compared the current draw on the new/old starters? I'll try, but, I know... We did 4 years ago!

RotoScooter

Anyone know if these values are valid for the newer starters as well? I think the factory began installing them... 4 years ago.






No-load test

1. Verify that the battery is fully charged.
2. Connect the starter, battery, and a tester as shown in the figure.


3. Operate the starter and verify that it rotates smoothly.
• If the starter does not rotate smoothly, inspect the starter unit. 4. Measure the voltage and current while the starter is operating.
• If not within the specification, replace the starter.
Standard current

Item
Voltage (V) 11
Current (A) MT: 90 or less AT: 105 or less

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

^ That's a "no-load" test (starter out of the car), so it should still be valid, though essentially useless.
(BTW - black text is a no-no. I didn't even realize there was text in your posting until I highlighted it all.)

A load test of the starter is more useful and you guys are probably on to something here.

I have the updated starter in my car and it is no where near as fast as the starter in that video.
Additionally, the current draw is pretty high when it is engaged.
The net drop in system voltage may be affecting the PCM and ignition system as well as swinging the motor too slowly.

RotoScooter

Excuse my lack of etiquette... had no idea bold/dark text was offensive. This was a cut/paste out of the Svc. Man. , so not sure about modifying it, although, I'm sure it's possible.

The problem with LOAD testing of course, is finding the standardized load to test it with. Are you using a low compression engine, or a full compression engine for your load, or something in-between? Until you have the LOAD STANDARD it's essentially useless. That's why the no load test is more useful, and was published in the MAZDA factory service manual. If there is some kind of short in the windings, or other high current condition, it will show, whether a mechanical load is present, or not. If the problem is low current/high resistance, that may be another story. But that would not load the battery/ignition/ECU/Fuel system voltage as much either, whereas high current is possibly creating the fire up condition I spoke of earlier. If the engine mechanical load is too high, that cannot be due to low compression. No?


RS

shadowbot

Glad to see I'm not crazy after having this problem myself on my 2004. My car however is still under the dealer's warranty and is in the shop right now being worked on. I'll test it out when I get it back to see if the problem really has been fixed and I'll let everyone know what they did at the Mazda dealer.

clank

I have a 2004 RX8. I've been having the "warm start " issue for a year now. Mazda and 1 other outside mechanic says "compression". However, Mazda didn't do a compression check when I asked them to run a diagnostic. If this is compression, wouldnt my car be completely dead by now? Any responses are appreciated. Thanks

shadowbot

My dealer has the car at the Mazda dealer right now. I just talked to him and he said they have 2 mechanics working on it right now who cant figure out what the problem is. They've replaced a few things but still cant tell exactly whats causing it. So for all the people having this problem, it may be a well known thing around these forums but word hasn't got around to the dealers yet cause they are stumped too.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

^ we typically know more as a group than most dealers.

shadowbot

Results are in. I'm getting a new engine from Mazda. Apparently this issue warrants a new engine...

RotoScooter

Starter No Load Tests



New Starter N3Z1-18-400

Battery voltage = 11.01V
.140 volts drop across 1 foot 12 awg wire (.00187 ohms/ft.)
Starter No Load current = 74.86 amps


Old Starter N3H1-18-400

Battery voltage = 11.3V
.120 volts drop across 1 foot 12 awg wire (.00187 ohms/ft.)
Starter No Load current = 64.17 amps



For these tests, the mounting flange of the starter was clamped directly to the - neg. terminal of the battery. the + terminal was connected to the + Pos. terminal of the battery using exactly 1 foot of 12 gauge (AWG) wire, measurement of voltage was performed using a Fluke 187 RMS DVM. All voltages were measured during run time of the starter.


The old starter sounded as if it was turning much faster, which would lead me to believe , less torque. It also seemed to have some additional strange scraping noises the new starter did not have. The new starter seems quieter.

So once it was installed, (I moly greased the gear teeth) I cold stated it. It seemed like it was spinning a long time before it finally fired up, but smooth strong spinning, and quiet. The old starter seemed to be slowing during the compression portion of the rotations. Drove the pi$$ out of it 2 miles up the steep hill to the summit, 6000-9000 RPM consistently, with AC on. By the time I reached the summit, it was very hot. Shut er' down, waited 10 minutes. Fired up instantly! The engine has never fired up that quickly since I drove it off the dealer lot.

My conclusion in this case, is that the starter was the issue, time will tell, but now it seems there is no warm start problem at all.

RS

RotoScooter

Unbelievable!!!

I decided to give it a test ride today, opened the garage, looked, and saw that the BatteryTender red light was on, and the green light was flashing! The red light means it's charging, and the flashing green means it's only 80% charged. Never seen either of these lights after a a night's trickle charging! Go to start it... click click click!

Now that's pretty weird, no problems yesterday. Checked to see if I had left any lights, or accessories on, no. Stuck the charger/starter assist on it, charged it for 15 minutes on 35 amps, started it with 200 amp assist. Removed charger, test drove 1/2 hour. Up to the summit again, parked down hill. Good move! click, click, click! I had to bump start it rolling down the hill.

Got it back into the garage, shut it off, tried to start it, click, click, click! Measured the battery voltage only 10.5 volts! Obviously a cell shorted overnight. This is the Interstate MTP 35 that the dealer upgraded me to late 2006. It's an 85 month battery. I think it has around 40 months on it. The car did sit, and drain it several times (trunk lights were on/didn't know it) during that 40 months, so maybe that's why. Anyway, Costco has the same battery 640 CCA with a 100 month warranty, and 3 year free replacement.

All this considered, I think it's safe to say I don't have any warm start issue. I've never owned a car that starts as quick as this one now does!

BTW, I used a different battery for the tests, maybe I would have found the bad battery sooner, using it.
RS

mouthyman

you said that mazda's engine warranty is for 60.000 miles, is there a time limit?

I have a 2003 RX8 with 53000 miles which seems to have a warm start issue, just wondered if i would be covered if the worst was diagnosed

yamahayzfr6

It's three years or 60k miles...

mouthyman

oh no, just have to hope its not the engine then

fio07

iTrader: (1)

Had my 8 for two months, ran just fine no problems with it, and out of no where after sitting for two days it would not start. It would try, everything seems to be working in the starting sequence but it would just try to start but never kick in.. Oil level is good, 2004 model with 61 k miles on it. Any suggestions?