Temporary starting problems
12-14-2016, 07:24 PM
#1
Temporary starting problems
So I have these temporary starting problems. One day I came to my car, it started cranking really slowly, caught speed and started my car. 10 miles later, I shut the car off, fill up gas, try to start, and it just won't until the 5th try while cranking the engine for 10 seconds.
This video shows the cold start that sometimes occurs.
I thought it could be carbon buildup, and redlined it quite often for the next 100 miles. At my destination, I had no problems with restarting the engine right after, after 5, 10 or 30 minutes. The next morning it started as usual. It was 2 weeks fine, and now the problem is starting again. I assume that my coils are completely toast, or my starter is dying, but otherwise I have no idea what it could be. I doubt it could be compression as it appears, disappears and reappears. Additionally, the steering wheel is quite heavy at the start, and it has positions where it has more resistance. I might take the battery out and recharge it, in case the battery itself or the alternator is dying too. Although I doubt it's the battery since it's produced a year ago.
This video shows the cold start that sometimes occurs.
I thought it could be carbon buildup, and redlined it quite often for the next 100 miles. At my destination, I had no problems with restarting the engine right after, after 5, 10 or 30 minutes. The next morning it started as usual. It was 2 weeks fine, and now the problem is starting again. I assume that my coils are completely toast, or my starter is dying, but otherwise I have no idea what it could be. I doubt it could be compression as it appears, disappears and reappears. Additionally, the steering wheel is quite heavy at the start, and it has positions where it has more resistance. I might take the battery out and recharge it, in case the battery itself or the alternator is dying too. Although I doubt it's the battery since it's produced a year ago.
Last edited by TomX8; 12-14-2016 at 08:03 PM.
12-14-2016, 08:02 PM
#2
You gonna eat that?
iTrader: (1)
For one, NEVER let your fuel level get that low if at all possible.
Your dash lights fading out leads me to believe you have bad connections at the battery.
Clean and tighten them, be sure they're tight, they can stretch over time and even though the bolt is completely tight, the terminal can still be loose.
Your dash lights fading out leads me to believe you have bad connections at the battery.
Clean and tighten them, be sure they're tight, they can stretch over time and even though the bolt is completely tight, the terminal can still be loose.
12-14-2016, 08:23 PM
#3
For one, NEVER let your fuel level get that low if at all possible.
Your dash lights fading out leads me to believe you have bad connections at the battery.
Clean and tighten them, be sure they're tight, they can stretch over time and even though the bolt is completely tight, the terminal can still be loose.
Your dash lights fading out leads me to believe you have bad connections at the battery.
Clean and tighten them, be sure they're tight, they can stretch over time and even though the bolt is completely tight, the terminal can still be loose.
I recall that the starts were similarly slow before the battery died. It got better when I recharged the battery, and after I installed the new one. And it's only that you mentioned the fading dashlight. It's normal that it fades once, but now I see it fading twice, which isn't really normal, is it?
12-15-2016, 10:12 AM
#5
40th anniversary Edition
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...t-here-222584/
Starting the Engine
• Starter
• Battery
• Engine Compression
• Grounding Wires
• Ignition Coils
• Spark Plugs
• Spark Plug Wires
• Fuel Pump
• Fuel Injectors
Letting your car get a fuel level that low does serious harm to the life of your fuel pump. At that low level the pump is exposed out of the surrounding fuel that is used to cool it. That operating heat without cooling fuel can help lead to pump failure.
Starting the Engine
• Starter
• Battery
• Engine Compression
• Grounding Wires
• Ignition Coils
• Spark Plugs
• Spark Plug Wires
• Fuel Pump
• Fuel Injectors
Letting your car get a fuel level that low does serious harm to the life of your fuel pump. At that low level the pump is exposed out of the surrounding fuel that is used to cool it. That operating heat without cooling fuel can help lead to pump failure.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 12-15-2016 at 12:12 PM.
12-15-2016, 11:29 AM
#6
I checked the terminals, they are tight without any space.
I will measure the battery voltage during starts. Last time I measured, IIRC, the battery was around 12V, and dropped under 12V during the start. When the engine runs, it gets to 13V something, and when I turn the engine off, drops steadily to 12V. I will measure it tomorrow morning again.
When I turn the car off right after a tough start, it starts pretty much instantly.
Normally I never do this, but I wanted to see how the car behaves after multiple cold starts, and every start it seemed to get better and better. When I leave it for 2 minutes, the car is just as hard to start as when it is cold. But it seems that the RPM doesn't get over 200?
Cold starts:
Hot start:
Notice that I need to crank the engine for a long time to turn it on, but when I let go of the key, so basically stop the starter motor, the engine takes a second in the starting RPM range and then starts. I've had this several times and I doubt that it's coincidence after so many times. It feels as if the alternator and/or battery are too strained to make the plugs spark properly,, either because the alternator/battery got too weak, the coils, cable and spark plugs are toast, or everything all together. But I'm not expert, I'm just guessing at this moment.
I will measure the battery voltage during starts. Last time I measured, IIRC, the battery was around 12V, and dropped under 12V during the start. When the engine runs, it gets to 13V something, and when I turn the engine off, drops steadily to 12V. I will measure it tomorrow morning again.
When I turn the car off right after a tough start, it starts pretty much instantly.
Normally I never do this, but I wanted to see how the car behaves after multiple cold starts, and every start it seemed to get better and better. When I leave it for 2 minutes, the car is just as hard to start as when it is cold. But it seems that the RPM doesn't get over 200?
Cold starts:
Hot start:
Notice that I need to crank the engine for a long time to turn it on, but when I let go of the key, so basically stop the starter motor, the engine takes a second in the starting RPM range and then starts. I've had this several times and I doubt that it's coincidence after so many times. It feels as if the alternator and/or battery are too strained to make the plugs spark properly,, either because the alternator/battery got too weak, the coils, cable and spark plugs are toast, or everything all together. But I'm not expert, I'm just guessing at this moment.
Last edited by TomX8; 12-15-2016 at 11:50 AM.
12-15-2016, 09:58 PM
#8
40th anniversary Edition
Watched your warm start vid. BTW you should have all accessories that draw electric juice, (like radios, lights and climate control fans) turned off when you are starting your car. This puts less draw on your battery when you need its full cranking amps most to start, especially in colder weather.
Obviously if you have other issues they also need to be addressed. Do check out that link above to the starting problems thread.
Obviously if you have other issues they also need to be addressed. Do check out that link above to the starting problems thread.
Last edited by gwilliams6; 12-15-2016 at 10:00 PM.
12-16-2016, 09:21 AM
#9
Thanks guys, I have read the starting issues thread.
I made some readings through my OBD2 app, and found that the battery voltage is between 11,5 and 12,5V with the engine off. The voltage goes up to 14-15V when the engine runs. The readings are actually minimum - maximum as I write them. They are not constant, but jump up and down. every few tenths of a second.
When I start cranking the engine, the voltage drops to 10V, and as soon as it hit 12V, the engine, the engine started. The cold start took 8 seconds! The next start took 2 seconds, and according to the reading, it started again as soon as it hit 12V. Another time, it took 2 seconds to start with the battery at a constant 11,5V while cranking.
So this makes me conclude that the battery is too weak. I will charge it when I get the opportunity or see how it starts cold with jumper cables. Or the alternator is shot, since the last time I drove it hard and long (200km), I didn't have any starting issues at all until a week later, but the voltage is right when it's running so I doubt that.
I made some readings through my OBD2 app, and found that the battery voltage is between 11,5 and 12,5V with the engine off. The voltage goes up to 14-15V when the engine runs. The readings are actually minimum - maximum as I write them. They are not constant, but jump up and down. every few tenths of a second.
When I start cranking the engine, the voltage drops to 10V, and as soon as it hit 12V, the engine, the engine started. The cold start took 8 seconds! The next start took 2 seconds, and according to the reading, it started again as soon as it hit 12V. Another time, it took 2 seconds to start with the battery at a constant 11,5V while cranking.
So this makes me conclude that the battery is too weak. I will charge it when I get the opportunity or see how it starts cold with jumper cables. Or the alternator is shot, since the last time I drove it hard and long (200km), I didn't have any starting issues at all until a week later, but the voltage is right when it's running so I doubt that.
Last edited by TomX8; 12-16-2016 at 09:34 AM.
12-16-2016, 10:18 AM
#12
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I had my Optima Red replaced twice, each one lasted less than a year. It wold test fine one day and then the next it would fail to start and then show bad on my load tester. After the second one died I threw it away and bought my Odyssey which has been fine for a few years. I knew Optima was crap too because my dad had gone thru a few yellow tops on his Jeeps. But it was such a good deal I bought it anyway. Won't make that mistake again.
12-30-2016, 06:36 AM
#14
Checked the terminal again, and the - has quite some gunk on it. The + terminal is completely clean, like brand new clean. No need to make a pic of that one.
I will clean it thoroughly and report back. When the key is on "On" with the engine off, the alternator whines quite loudly. A year ago I could hear something very softly but now it's kind of as loud as a flash capacitor recharging.
01-03-2017, 07:48 AM
#15
Update: I have checked the starting RPM, and they are between 250 and 350, as shown in the videos.
Often I have starts where I crank the engine for like 10 seconds and nothing happens. But what helped, was to press down the throttle to cut off fuel supply, crank a while, and then try to start. It starts easier after I've done that.
But what I found disturbing is that the car starts MUCH better when I press the throttle a bit. Every time I just touched the throttle for like 10%, the car started. It makes me believe that the mixture is too lean, but it wouldn't make any sense since cranking the engine dry, as if it's flooded, shouldn't help? Or it's cranking too rich, which causes it to flood, and by opening the throttle a bit, I give the engine a leaner mixture which makes it start.
What do you guys think? I also read out the Long Term and Short Term Fuel Trim and the LT is at 12% and short term just jumps up and down between -7% and +15%.
Cleaning the terminal didn't help, but what DID help, was resetting the ECU. The first time I disconnected and reconnected my battery, the car started in just 2 seconds of cranking, as it always did. 10km later, it barely started at all. So I disconnected the battery again, and reconnected it, and the car started again right after 2 seconds of cranking, and again 10km down the road, it barely started, repeat the process. Ofcourse, since the ECU has been reset, I turned on all lights and electronics so the ECU calibrates with that load.
I've also had some problems with my o2 sensor, atleast I believe so. The o2 readings are high below 4500rpm of cruising at 0,9, but when I go past 4500rpm, the o2 readings significantly drop to 0,10. That's in 6th gear when I drive about 150-160kmh. So could it be that my o2 sensor is just faulty too? The car has 102000km on the clock.
Often I have starts where I crank the engine for like 10 seconds and nothing happens. But what helped, was to press down the throttle to cut off fuel supply, crank a while, and then try to start. It starts easier after I've done that.
But what I found disturbing is that the car starts MUCH better when I press the throttle a bit. Every time I just touched the throttle for like 10%, the car started. It makes me believe that the mixture is too lean, but it wouldn't make any sense since cranking the engine dry, as if it's flooded, shouldn't help? Or it's cranking too rich, which causes it to flood, and by opening the throttle a bit, I give the engine a leaner mixture which makes it start.
What do you guys think? I also read out the Long Term and Short Term Fuel Trim and the LT is at 12% and short term just jumps up and down between -7% and +15%.
Cleaning the terminal didn't help, but what DID help, was resetting the ECU. The first time I disconnected and reconnected my battery, the car started in just 2 seconds of cranking, as it always did. 10km later, it barely started at all. So I disconnected the battery again, and reconnected it, and the car started again right after 2 seconds of cranking, and again 10km down the road, it barely started, repeat the process. Ofcourse, since the ECU has been reset, I turned on all lights and electronics so the ECU calibrates with that load.
I've also had some problems with my o2 sensor, atleast I believe so. The o2 readings are high below 4500rpm of cruising at 0,9, but when I go past 4500rpm, the o2 readings significantly drop to 0,10. That's in 6th gear when I drive about 150-160kmh. So could it be that my o2 sensor is just faulty too? The car has 102000km on the clock.
Last edited by TomX8; 01-03-2017 at 07:54 AM.
01-04-2017, 07:08 AM
#16
Anothe Update
Okay guys, so I completely forgot to mention the fact that I have an LPG system installed. I was looking around on the internet, and I found a guy with a Volvo on LPG who experiences the same problem as me.
Fuel trim question ? [Archive] - Volvo Owners Club Forum
Quick Summary of replies
I mean, it explains it pretty well, and my installer didn't seem to bother to map the LPG ECU properly. IIRC, he added around 10% to the idle so the car wouldn't die in LPG, and that fits the explanation why the LTFT is 10-12,5% at Idle, I guess.
I will now see how the car starts when I disconnect the battery again and reconnect it, drive it for a while, check the trim values, and see how the car starts hot without having run on LPG. If this solves the issue, it boils down to a bad LPG mapping.
Okay guys, so I completely forgot to mention the fact that I have an LPG system installed. I was looking around on the internet, and I found a guy with a Volvo on LPG who experiences the same problem as me.
Fuel trim question ? [Archive] - Volvo Owners Club Forum
Quick Summary of replies
jimbob jnr
Apr 3rd, 2011, 21:25
Hi, i'm having issues with my P1 v70 T5 related to start up fuel trim, the car has a brc lpg system and i was wondering if anyone knows a garage that can rectify this issue and whats involved in the diagnostic process ? Thanks jim
Please explain a little further. What are the fuel trim issues you are having. Do you know the error codes. Is the issue with petrol start up or initial change over?
Thanks for reply, basically it's initial start up the car is massively over fuelling causing miss firing. When i disconnect the battery to reset ecu fuel trim the car starts perfectly but, as days/weeks pass and the ecu learns fuelling (bad habits off gas?) the problem creeps back until i get fed up and disconnect battery again !
classicswede
Apr 6th, 2011, 09:32
No there is absolutly no confusion here. The gas mapping is causing your poor petrol start up problems.
Because the gas mapping is out the petrol ECU fuel trims are drifting to the extent that they are so far out the car will barely start on petrol. This is quite a common problem that I have to rectify where other installers have not bothered mapping the system to the petrol fuel trims.
The Blackpool BRC installer is Paul Rodgers. The mapping can be done correctly in a few miles if you understand and know how to do it correctly.
Apr 3rd, 2011, 21:25
Hi, i'm having issues with my P1 v70 T5 related to start up fuel trim, the car has a brc lpg system and i was wondering if anyone knows a garage that can rectify this issue and whats involved in the diagnostic process ? Thanks jim
Please explain a little further. What are the fuel trim issues you are having. Do you know the error codes. Is the issue with petrol start up or initial change over?
Thanks for reply, basically it's initial start up the car is massively over fuelling causing miss firing. When i disconnect the battery to reset ecu fuel trim the car starts perfectly but, as days/weeks pass and the ecu learns fuelling (bad habits off gas?) the problem creeps back until i get fed up and disconnect battery again !
classicswede
Apr 6th, 2011, 09:32
No there is absolutly no confusion here. The gas mapping is causing your poor petrol start up problems.
Because the gas mapping is out the petrol ECU fuel trims are drifting to the extent that they are so far out the car will barely start on petrol. This is quite a common problem that I have to rectify where other installers have not bothered mapping the system to the petrol fuel trims.
The Blackpool BRC installer is Paul Rodgers. The mapping can be done correctly in a few miles if you understand and know how to do it correctly.
I will now see how the car starts when I disconnect the battery again and reconnect it, drive it for a while, check the trim values, and see how the car starts hot without having run on LPG. If this solves the issue, it boils down to a bad LPG mapping.
Last edited by TomX8; 01-08-2017 at 02:20 PM.
01-04-2017, 07:10 AM
#17
Another Update
Okay guys, so I completely forgot to mention the fact that I have an LPG system installed. I was looking around on the internet, and I found a guy with a Volvo on LPG who experiences the same problem as me.
Fuel trim question ? [Archive] - Volvo Owners Club Forum
Quick Summary of replies
I mean, it explains it pretty well, and my installer didn't seem to bother to map the LPG ECU properly. IIRC, he added around 10% to the idle so the car wouldn't die in LPG, and that fits the explanation why the LTFT is 10-12,5% at Idle, I guess.
I will now see how the car starts when I disconnect the battery again and reconnect it, drive it for a while, check the trim values, and see how the car starts hot without having run on LPG. If this solves the issue, it boils down to a bad LPG mapping.
First nothing, then I start deflooding the engine, I try to start again to no avail. I add 1 or 2cm of throttle and the engine starts immediately.
Okay guys, so I completely forgot to mention the fact that I have an LPG system installed. I was looking around on the internet, and I found a guy with a Volvo on LPG who experiences the same problem as me.
Fuel trim question ? [Archive] - Volvo Owners Club Forum
Quick Summary of replies
jimbob jnr
Apr 3rd, 2011, 21:25
Hi, i'm having issues with my P1 v70 T5 related to start up fuel trim, the car has a brc lpg system and i was wondering if anyone knows a garage that can rectify this issue and whats involved in the diagnostic process ? Thanks jim
Please explain a little further. What are the fuel trim issues you are having. Do you know the error codes. Is the issue with petrol start up or initial change over?
Thanks for reply, basically it's initial start up the car is massively over fuelling causing miss firing. When i disconnect the battery to reset ecu fuel trim the car starts perfectly but, as days/weeks pass and the ecu learns fuelling (bad habits off gas?) the problem creeps back until i get fed up and disconnect battery again !
classicswede
Apr 6th, 2011, 09:32
No there is absolutly no confusion here. The gas mapping is causing your poor petrol start up problems.
Because the gas mapping is out the petrol ECU fuel trims are drifting to the extent that they are so far out the car will barely start on petrol. This is quite a common problem that I have to rectify where other installers have not bothered mapping the system to the petrol fuel trims.
The Blackpool BRC installer is Paul Rodgers. The mapping can be done correctly in a few miles if you understand and know how to do it correctly.
Apr 3rd, 2011, 21:25
Hi, i'm having issues with my P1 v70 T5 related to start up fuel trim, the car has a brc lpg system and i was wondering if anyone knows a garage that can rectify this issue and whats involved in the diagnostic process ? Thanks jim
Please explain a little further. What are the fuel trim issues you are having. Do you know the error codes. Is the issue with petrol start up or initial change over?
Thanks for reply, basically it's initial start up the car is massively over fuelling causing miss firing. When i disconnect the battery to reset ecu fuel trim the car starts perfectly but, as days/weeks pass and the ecu learns fuelling (bad habits off gas?) the problem creeps back until i get fed up and disconnect battery again !
classicswede
Apr 6th, 2011, 09:32
No there is absolutly no confusion here. The gas mapping is causing your poor petrol start up problems.
Because the gas mapping is out the petrol ECU fuel trims are drifting to the extent that they are so far out the car will barely start on petrol. This is quite a common problem that I have to rectify where other installers have not bothered mapping the system to the petrol fuel trims.
The Blackpool BRC installer is Paul Rodgers. The mapping can be done correctly in a few miles if you understand and know how to do it correctly.
I will now see how the car starts when I disconnect the battery again and reconnect it, drive it for a while, check the trim values, and see how the car starts hot without having run on LPG. If this solves the issue, it boils down to a bad LPG mapping.
First nothing, then I start deflooding the engine, I try to start again to no avail. I add 1 or 2cm of throttle and the engine starts immediately.
Last edited by TomX8; 01-04-2017 at 07:26 AM.
01-06-2017, 04:55 AM
#18
Another update. I stopped by at a friend and he read out some codes with his laptop. 1 emission fault code and 4 other fault codes came out of the scan. He will get the computer from his dealership later than can read the Mazda codes so we know exactly what is going on.
01-08-2017, 12:22 PM
#19
40th anniversary Edition
You can buy an inexpensive OBD2 dongle from Amazon and use Torque app on your smartphone and it will read out the codes.
https://www.amazon.com/Launchh-Inter...XEFW3EA0RRSNRY
We have a RX8 code list here on the site:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...n-guide-26291/
https://www.amazon.com/Launchh-Inter...XEFW3EA0RRSNRY
We have a RX8 code list here on the site:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...n-guide-26291/
Last edited by gwilliams6; 01-08-2017 at 12:27 PM.
01-08-2017, 12:34 PM
#20
You can buy an inexpensive OBD2 dongle from Amazon and use Torque app on your smartphone and it will read out the codes.
https://www.amazon.com/Launchh-Inter...XEFW3EA0RRSNRY
We have a RX8 code list here on the site:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...n-guide-26291/
https://www.amazon.com/Launchh-Inter...XEFW3EA0RRSNRY
We have a RX8 code list here on the site:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...n-guide-26291/
Do I need to pay for the Torque App to get the codes, or can I get them with the free version aswell?
01-08-2017, 12:46 PM
#21
DashCommand should be able to read the codes (as well as the free version of Torque). There are some Mazda-specific codes for the OMP, but you shouldn't need anything special for the problems you're having.
You said there was 1 emissions code and 4 other codes... do you want to share what they are? That would help.
You said there was 1 emissions code and 4 other codes... do you want to share what they are? That would help.
01-08-2017, 01:49 PM
#22
DashCommand should be able to read the codes (as well as the free version of Torque). There are some Mazda-specific codes for the OMP, but you shouldn't need anything special for the problems you're having.
You said there was 1 emissions code and 4 other codes... do you want to share what they are? That would help.
You said there was 1 emissions code and 4 other codes... do you want to share what they are? That would help.
It's only when my friend hooks it up to his laptop via the cable and uses specialized software he reads out 4 faults, but there is no code written at all.
01-08-2017, 01:56 PM
#23
That's super weird. I can read codes with wOBD (which is free) on a laptop and a USB ELM327 reader, and I can read them with a bluetooth ELM327 dongle + Torque Lite. Can you read other ECU data when the car is running, like airflow, coolant temperature, etc?
01-08-2017, 02:19 PM
#24
He scanned once, he got 4 faults. Second scan he got nothing, and the thrid scan he got the 4 codes again. He also found it strange.
I might check the wiring to the ECU, since the car has been converted to LPG, so there might be a slim chance that the installer f'd something up.
Somewhere next week we will read the ECU out with the dealership laptop, and if that doesn't give anything there is something seriously wrong. We will do that when we replace my brakes. Left Front, Left and Right Rear calipers are stuck, discs need replacement, and pads are to minimum.
Last edited by TomX8; 01-10-2017 at 07:22 AM.
01-12-2017, 10:38 AM
#25
I cleaned the MAF, the sensor had black oily dirt on it, now it's clean again. Did not improve anything with the start situation.
I checked for any codes, both with DashCommand and Torque it doesn't give a singel fault.
I have been reading out the Actual AFR and Commanded AFR, and the ECU commands 1:15, but the car starts with 1:10 to almost 1:9. Which explains why it helps to open the throttle a bit, as more air is added and gets the AFR closer to the 1:15 that the ECU commands. When the RPM's surge to 3000rpm without adding any throttle, the engine sounds really rough, just like when it was flooded one time with a bunch of smoke and it smelled alot like gasoline.
Long Term Fuel Trim - 10,2 to 12,5 on Idle, 7% when I WOT
Short Term Fuel Trim - +16% to -21%' (between idle and racing the car on the street). Average is -0,6%
Will reset the ECU tomorrow by disconnecting the battery, and will see what the readings are when I start the car, and how they develop over time. I will also get my second camera to film how the car sounds when it starts after having reset the ECU. I will drive on gasoline and follow the development, then I will switch to LPG and see how it develops from there. I will get the cable for the LPG ECU to reset the values and let the auto adaptation do its job.
I checked for any codes, both with DashCommand and Torque it doesn't give a singel fault.
I have been reading out the Actual AFR and Commanded AFR, and the ECU commands 1:15, but the car starts with 1:10 to almost 1:9. Which explains why it helps to open the throttle a bit, as more air is added and gets the AFR closer to the 1:15 that the ECU commands. When the RPM's surge to 3000rpm without adding any throttle, the engine sounds really rough, just like when it was flooded one time with a bunch of smoke and it smelled alot like gasoline.
Long Term Fuel Trim - 10,2 to 12,5 on Idle, 7% when I WOT
Short Term Fuel Trim - +16% to -21%' (between idle and racing the car on the street). Average is -0,6%
Will reset the ECU tomorrow by disconnecting the battery, and will see what the readings are when I start the car, and how they develop over time. I will also get my second camera to film how the car sounds when it starts after having reset the ECU. I will drive on gasoline and follow the development, then I will switch to LPG and see how it develops from there. I will get the cable for the LPG ECU to reset the values and let the auto adaptation do its job.
Last edited by TomX8; 01-12-2017 at 10:41 AM.