Milky looking oil - help!
 

Sure could use some reassurance here.

I backed my 8 out of the garage and did the fog light rewire. I started the engine a couple of times to make sure I did the for light rewire job right. I waited about 10 to 15 minutes and checked the oil level. I pulled the dip stick out, wiped it, re-inserted and pulled it out again. The dip stick had white foam with the oil all over it. I did the procedure again with similar results. The bottom bent end of the dip stick had a drop of foaming looking oil on it as well. The oil smelled like it had gasoline in it. The outside air temp was around 54 degrees.

The 8 has about 1500 miles on it. Oil level was 1/2 quart low. The car had been driving 24 hours earlier.

I would suspect if I were getting water into the oil the oil level would rise.

I'm hoping this condition is caused by cool temperature and no warm up.

Can anyone out there help?

Yup - there's quite a few threads about this. It's common enough, especially for short trip usage - basically, it's condensation within the engine that isn't getting burned off (engine not getting hot enough for long enough). Browse around, or search for 'oil' threads, you'll see them.

Regards,
Gordon

Yep, had the same thing happen to me. Caused by "not hot enough, not long enough" (no, that that thing....)

Take it for a good ride once a week or so; it'll be fine.

same thing here too... just take it out and run the piss out of it for a while <shrug>

Thanks for the reassuring replies. I just hated to think that something major might have been ailing my beloved RX8.

I'll take the advice and literally run the p*** out it. (After the ice storm that's expected to hit today.)

:D

The theory about condensation is probably true (and happens with other vehicles too) but I've also noticed this phenomenon and it only happened after an oil change and a 25 minute drive on the highway. You would have thought that the engine had plenty of time to warm up and the oil was brand new.

It appears that the Renesis is susceptible to water condensation, maybe due to a cold spot near the dipstick. I'm not so sure warming it up will get rid of the milky oil in the winter time.

In any case, it appears to be common. Only time will tell if it causes problems long term (e.g. corrosion).

Dont get too attached to the 'short trips' theory. I commute over 20 miles to work and rarely do a trip of less than 5 miles. I have had this white residue since day 1. Havent heard anything to say it is a problem, but what is mysterious is than some owners in the UK get it, others have never seen it.
And dont get too alarmed if your whole dipstick is covered in it, it may be that you dragged it through the build-up at the rim. Wipe it all off, from the stick and the tube, and do it again, 2 or 3 times if necesssary. If its still in the oil, I think you do have a problem.

JH

i checked my oil and the same thing here, after driving highway for 20 minutes as well.

Oil & Water mixed ?
 

UK RX-8 - 1500 miles

Burnt about 1.5ltrs of oil so far - but on my latest check have Creamy white foam on the shaft of the dipstick - Oil itself looks clean (slightly darker than new) but i'm worried by the foam.

Level is at (or about) the high mark.

Looks as if it *could* be water ingress at the rubber dipstick seal but there seems to be a bit much foam for that.

Had the lid off the coolant tank - there appears to be a slight oily film ontop in there too

Dealer says 'bring it in' (no-brainer)

Anyone else seen anything like this - or able to offer re-assuring words.

Thanks in advance

Oh yeah, lots of us have this frothy, cappucino-like foam also. In many cases, it seems to have first occurred when air temps fell below 50 deg. F or so. (it didn't happen to me last summer) I'd say do a search on "foam" or "froth". Probably condensation.

Some say it is normal, but in my case, the froth is making it difficult for me to check my oil level, and I'm not about to change my oil every damn time it happens; that would mean daily oil changes! My coolant level hasn't gone down, so I think i'm ok there.

Phew- that's a bit of a releif - its certainly cold(ish) here (about -3c at night and only about 4c daytime - (don't know what that is in F)

I'll probably drop it by the dealer anyway - they're only a mile down the road - it's shame they don't appear to have the knowlege that's available via this forum

Thanks

I did original post. Thanks to all who responded.

This does seem to be a "common" occurance. There's another Tech Garage thread "Oil & water mixed".

I wonder if synthetic oil does the same thing.

It seems to me if there is condensation (water) in the oil it would lead to problems in time. I have a hard time accepting an oil and water mixture in an engine and it be a normal thing.

Nickax see "milky looking oil - help" in Tech Garage.

Seems to be real "common"!

can u define the term "MILKY" please?

On the "water in oil" theory, I put small sections of cardboard in front of my oil coolers to alleviate the problem. I did this when the average ambient temp was LESS than 50 degrees. Although my stick is still loaded w/ junk the engine warms up much quicker and revs in the cooler weather like it is summer outside.

Thanks for all your info on the site.

Charles

I forgot to ask, "What is the fog light re-wire?".

Thx.

Mine has done this too lately in the cooler temps.

Charles R. I believe this will take you to the rewire -https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11737&highlight=fog+lig ht

"Milky" refers to the oil looking a white color and somewhat foamy.

It looks like capuccino froth all the way up the dipstick. Put the dipstick in and out a few times, wiping it each time, and that will get rid of it from the dipstick tube and then you can read the oil level. The oil itself looks fine.

I just saw this today for the first time and was pretty worried until I read this thread. Might get the dealer to take a look at it anyway but looks like it can wait until after the holidays.

I do fairly short trips and it has gone cold here (around freezing) so I guess I fit the pattern.

That " stuff" on my dipstick?
 

No it is not what the trash minded would think! Here are some pics of the deposits that I found on my dipstick yesterday and today.

http://images5.fotki.com/v56/photos/...MG_3113-vi.jpg

http://images5.fotki.com/v56/photos/...MG_3110-vi.jpg

http://images5.fotki.com/v56/photos/...MG_3112-vi.jpg

I think it is just condensation because it does not smell like fuel or antifreeze.

If you do a search for "milky dipstick" you'll find several other topics on this subject already. I believe it is just condensation and not cause for alarm.

True.

But I had not seen any pics of the stuff yet so I posted some for others to see.

ummm.. I think some tetracycline will clear that right up.....


Seriously, thanks for the pics. The (paint? anodization?) on the dipstick is still a mystery too. I wonder if it was used to reduce this "condensation" tendency?

Re: That " stuff" on my dipstick?
 

Here's mine. It's so bad that I can't check the oil level. I'm concerned it smells a bit gasy, but am not sure.

Me to wife: Does this smell bad to you, honey?
Wife to me: F&%* that &%$^ car!

Megareds pics looks like an oil/water emulsion. I'm not sure how the water source can be condensation unless you don't insert the dipstick all the way in. I'm having a hard time believing that anybody on this board would be that sloppy. Megared, I wonder if you would get an answer from NA Mazda if you emailed those pics to them?

For those interested, see these threads...

Foamy/Milky Oil No. 1

Foamy/Milky Oil No. 2

Foamy/Milky Oil No. 3

I have been told by my master technician who was told by the Mazda Technical hotline, that the condensation on the dipstick and the oil being that color is NORMAL with the vehicle. The exact reasoning and cause of it I dont know.

White stuff in oil
 

I also have the condensation in the oil. My dealer said they called Mazda engineering and was told that it is "normal" and will not cause damage to the engine. I still plan to change the oil regularly in the cold months. It has been barely above freezing during the day the last 2 weeks.

I notice that when I get the car out on a highway cruise for an hour or so, the stuff gradually goes away.

A friend suggested blocking off the oil coloer in the cold months. Anyone try that?

It's called "lung mustard" :p:

Yes, long drives will clear out the water condensation and the white stuff. My 85 RX-7 never gets this because my commute is 40 miles one way. Cars that are only driven short distances will see this in the oil

EDIT - And do NOT block your oil cooler. That's bad advise IMO.

I still get it in my oil......in the beginning I had it looked at to be sure....said not to worry about it! So I won't worry...weird though. 3200 miles and running good so far!

Anyone on here have a mechanical understanding of where this water comes from? (I'm assuming byproduct of combustion). But how does the water get into the crankcase? Just curious.

If it ever happens to me, I'll take a sample to work and have the percent water analyzed. It won't hurt to have a feel for just how much water is present. So far, my oil is water-free and to be honest, I hope to hell it stays that way.....

That would be wonderful..I can not figure out how water gets into a sealed system..

This forum is just awesome. I was checking my oil today (just <4,000 miles) and noticed that the oil was a light brown color and was very frothy. I panicked and filed a mental note to get an oil change ASAP but after reading this thread I guess I have no cause for alarm, other than the fact that the consistency of the oil made it impossible to check the oil level.

Folks, we have a very bizarre automobile. This and spinning the tires at 8,500 rpm are the two weirdest ownership experiences I've had with the baby.

I too had that crap on the dip stick. I changed my oil this weekend and although there was copius amounts on the stick there was no indication of it in the oil whatsoever! I rechecked the oil level today and the amount present was next to nothing so I'm not going to worry about it.

When I check my oil, I find some creamy "mayonaisse" on the dipstick and filler cap too.
I reported this to my local dealer who passed the issue to Mazda technical. Their response is that it is due to condensation in the oil as the engine doesnt get hot enough to evaporate it. As these are the furthest points from the heat, this happens. They say they are not concerned about it but going back to the old days when this stuff meant your gaskets were in bad shape, I am a bit concerned that when the car is eventually sold, then a potential buyer would be put off.
It still isnt clearing and they are sending the issue back to Mazda again. They think its the weather. Does anyone from the hotter climates get this problem too?

Mike

Mine only started when the temp went below 50....but will water cause long term problems with the seals or the inside of the chamber?

Condensation implies that there's water vapor available to condense. Where's the water vapor coming from? I'm assuming the crankcase is similar enough to piston-crancases, in that it's a sealed chamber with 3 points of potential exposure to the environment; a fill-cap, a dipstick, and a drain-bolt. That being the case, why doesn't this "condensation" occur in oil that lubricates conventional engines?

It's obvious that water is generated when gasoline in burned but in a piston engine that water would presumably be a part of the exhaust. Does the rotary allow some of that "steam" to seep past the seals and thus wind up in the oil reservoir? It makes no sense to me. Another thing that's strange is that the one member found this froth on the dipstick yet found none in the oil when he drained the pan. Emuslified water in oil is heavier than oil itself. The difference in density being slight, it would probably exist as a relatively even dispersion all throughout the oil. If separation were to occur though, the emulsion would sink, NOT float. Therefore, you'd think the member would have seen the stuff at the bottom of the oil pan.

The fact that it's foamy and it floats almost suggests that it's gas-cut. This would essentially mean that it's been sheared in the presence of a gas (during combustion?) and has somehow managed to hang onto that gas and form a foam. Of the two, this one would seem the most innocuous given that water in the oil will change its rheological and lubricating properties.

Has anyone collected enough of this stuff to get a good look at it? Even if it's an oil and water emulsion, it should break (separate into 2 distinct phases) given time. It would be interesting to know if anyone has actually ever SEEN the water (after it separates from the oil) or if the the conclusion that this phenomenon is caused by water is merely an assumption.

i just checked my oil and had this white stuff. I never had it before, but since i got the new oil pan it just now showed up. Is it possible the new oil pan is partly responsible?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FirstSpin
[B]Condensation implies that there's water vapor available to condense. Where's the water vapor coming from? I'm assuming the crankcase is similar enough to piston-crancases, in that it's a sealed chamber with 3 points of potential exposure to the environment; a fill-cap, a dipstick, and a drain-bolt. That being the case, why doesn't this "condensation" occur in oil that lubricates conventional engines?

It's obvious that water is generated when gasoline in burned but in a piston engine that water would presumably be a part of the exhaust. Does the rotary allow some of that "steam" to seep past the seals and thus wind up in the oil reservoir? It makes no sense to me. Another thing that's strange is that the one member found this froth on the dipstick yet found none in the oil when he drained the pan. Emuslified water in oil is heavier than oil itself. The difference in density being slight, it would probably exist as a relatively even dispersion all throughout the oil. If separation were to occur though, the emulsion would sink, NOT float. Therefore, you'd think the member would have seen the stuff at the bottom of the oil pan.

The fact that it's foamy and it floats almost suggests that it's gas-cut. This would essentially mean that it's been sheared in the presence of a gas (during combustion?) and has somehow managed to hang onto that gas and form a foam. Of the two, this one would seem the most innocuous given that water in the oil will change its rheological and lubricating properties.

Has anyone collected enough of this stuff to get a good look at it? Even if it's an oil and water emulsion, it should break (separate into 2 distinct phases) given time. It would be interesting to know if anyone has actually ever SEEN the water (after it separates from the oil) or if the the conclusion that this phenomenon"



Wow, good post..I have never ssen it seperate, but I will see if I can try to get an answer. The car is going in for an oil change now, maybe I can look at the old stuff..

yah this happened to me too, it was dang cold out in the NJ/PA area. i was running low on oil, the light was doing the blinky blink, so i went to a service station and changed the oil.. the froth boggled me for a second, id been driving for about 2 hours before..

i got an oil change and haven't checked it since, but from what this seems, its probably still doing it.

Mine does the same thing. I am not certain that it is water either. I have the distinct smell of fuel in the oil. I changed my oil originally at 2100 miles but decided that I will go off of the owners manual at 7500 for future changes unless I am going to auto x it or something. This is the first time I have seen more than just a little bit on the stick (the whole stick was covered just like the 2nd pic in the thread). I have 6k miles now. My guess is that it has to do with the apex seals and the lubricating oil. If the pressures were enough some of the mixture may be able to make it back in.

I know that in my other cars this would mean a blown head gasket and the whole oil would come out looking like this if you were driving on it. Not just around the dipstick. Very puzzling.

Checked oil today....had lots of condensation.......had the car since November. Did anyone in the warmer climates have this? I won't worry about it though! Nice technical comments Klegg & Firstspin!

If you look closely, you can actually see some distinct water droplets on the upper part of the dipstick. I noticed taht today.

It does boil away if you get it on the highway, so I'm not concerned that it is antifreeze/water. Anyway, my coolant level has not droped a bit.

I noticed the same thing this past weekend here in Dallas. Although we are further south than some of you it has been cold (40's daytime--20's night time) for us. It doesn't seem to affect the performance and I did not note any fuel smell to it.

That's a pretty big assumption (sealed chamber) - and a wrong one. It is just the same as piston crankcases, in that it's ventilated. In olden days, crankcases were ventilated to atmosphere, and were the source of much pollution. Nowadays (ie for the past 30 years!), crankcases are vented back to the intake system so emissions (oil vapours) are passed through the combustion chambers. Think about the heating that takes place in the crank from cold to full operating temperature - if it were sealed, you'd be varying between positive crankcase pressure (as the air heated up) to vacuum (as the air in the crankcase cooled down). Either of those would drastically affect operations, in the form of internal resistance to the rotating assemblies and in oil combustion from oil being forced past the rings/seals.

So - the crankcase is vented, and air does get pulled into it - after you turn your engine off and as it cools. That air contains a certain humidity level, which results in condensation. The reason it produces foam that is concentrated in the dipstick is probably due to the air circulation patterns within the crankcase caused by the rotating assemblies. BUT, it does happen with piston engines as well, and that's the main reason that short trips qualify for inclusion in the severe duty maintenance cycles with increased oil change intervals. In both piston and rotary engines, a long trip which lets oil temperatures stabilize at full operating temperature (above water's boiling temperature) will result in the water condensation getting turned to vapour, which gets cycled through the PCV valve to the intake and burned off.

Some condensation will always result from shutting down a hot engine - the issue is that if you make a long run the next time the engine runs, the condensation burns off right away. If you make a series of short runs where the engine never gets fully hot for a while, then the condensation doesn't burn off completely, and more accumulates at each cooldown. Again, this is the same for piston and rotary engines - it just seems that something about the rotary crankcase design results in it showing up as foam around the dipstick.

Regards,
Gordon

Wow, thanks GORD..

Dang, Gord knows his stuff. Well Gord, maybe you can help me out. The body shop flooded my car and it was serviced at a dealership. Anyways, they swapped out the plugs for the "hot" ones, and changed the oil. I've noticed the milky white stuff on my dipstick, but I can smell gasoline in it. The smell is pretty noticeable. Is this normal or should I change my oil? I've only put about 700 miles on the car with the current oil in it. The service tech advised me that that oil change wouldn't be covered under warranty. He also told me that if there was a contaminate in the oil (ie, gas), that the ECU would throw a CEL. So what do you think?

Greeting from Scotland!

Well my velocity red RX8 has developed the fault from day one. At first I thought it was grease on the dip stick when it was new.

The Mayo became more apparrent at 500 miles. The car has not lost any coolant. And has now only covered 650 miles.

I can however comment that the mayo in my engine is not just foam, it also has jelly like salad cream deposits.

I have never had to add to the oil. So the car is running on factory supplied oil.

The problem seems to have manifeted when the temperatures dropped below zero.

The vehicle is driven for a minimium of 20 mins to work. It only takes 5 mins to reach temperature. So for 15mins the car is running at normal temperature.

I have opened a bun fight with Mazda UK on this issue. They confidently stated verbally, that water in the oil does not matter. I beg to differ as this will make the oil become acidic. Further it will change the ability of the oil to convey heat. In addition the water content will support oxidisation. Further the Oil mix will expand at a differrent rate from normal oil.

The oil and water mix will have a different viscosity. So lubrication has to be effected on start up. I expect that my engine will suffer more wear at this time than one with normal oil.

I note that the mazda runs on a comparatively 'runny' oil compared to ordinary combustion engines, not custard.

I would expect this custard to clog components of the engine. I am unclear of the size of the jets on the rotars for instance. Or even of the delivery system.

I have today, asked them for written proof that Mazda have verified this on an actual engine, and aren't shooting from the hip as I suspect.

I do not accept the argument of the engine being unsuitable for short runs. This was never a condition of sale of the vehicle. Infact I can't recall any car of this nature in the uk.

If this is Mazda's official line then sadly the RX8 is unsuitable for road use in a colder climate. I would expect a full refund, or atleast a modification to preheat the oil. (I seem to recall the VW Golf Mrk2 GTis having this facility?!!).

I can say I have never experienced this on any car that I have owned over the last 15 years.

On the positive side if it is infact okay to have mayo oil, then just think how much you can save by topping up with good ole tap water instead of oil.:cool:

Cummon Mazda pull your socks up on this issue, stop hidding behind the call centre girl, talk to us guys, we wont bite much!

I don't really care what is causing the mayo, the problem is unacceptible. I expect Mazda to acknowledge and rectify the problem, otherwise refund my car in full. I have other issues with my car. This mayo problem was the final straw. Shame as the Rx8 is a fabulous design, and drive.

I found the foamy stuff this weekend, took near 10 minutes to figure out (I think) that I needed to add 1/2 litre of oil.

I really don't care about the foam (that's a Mazda probelm if anything comes of it), I just care it is so hard to tell what the oil level is.

After all the car runs perfectly well.

Just noticed the foamy stuff on my dipstick today.
In most cars it is usualy an indicator of a cracked head but it seems that alot of people here are experiencing it. I'm still going to alert the dealer.

The original poster indicated that the oil had a gas odor to it. Mine has the same. No one addressed that in this thread though.
Anyone else notice the same?

Gas odor in oil usually indicates flooding or super rich running motor.

Any thoughts?

Gary