McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

This is kind of an overflow from my resto-thread in the Gulf forum but I'm at an impasse.

My car is a 2005, formerly A/T car, converted to 4 port M/T (5-spd) with a JDM Engine and transmission.

The car runs great with the A/T PCM, but I'm stuck with a persistent U0101 DTC. This is what I expected, so my plan was to use the JDM PCM in the car to eliminate this.

I brought the car and both PCM's to a Mazda dealer who said over the phone that they could make the keys work with this PCM.

4 hours and $178 later the tech and service manager informed me that it isn't going to work because the JDM PCM doesn't have the ability to interface with the PATS module in the car.

My question is with a non-PATS PCM, can I jumper the pertinent wires to go "around" (i.e. physically bypass) the immobilizer module behind the glove box to make this thing work, or should I search for a PATS-equipped standard power EUDM/JDM PCM and try again?

Or option B, just bite the damn bullet and get an access port to mask the code?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

They do have PATS as far as I remember, but only reason why it doesn't work (I think) is because they can't get Japan's code on US Mazda Dealer TEch site, in Japan they have a VIN kind of system but it's different. when you try to put anything other than VIN number (US) into the system, it gives you an error.

you can disable the stock immobilizer, I forgot which wires to jump. but you will get the CEL no matter what cuz that's just an error generate by the ECU

McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

When I looked at the screen on their IDS laptop it said "PATS: Not Equipped" or something similar. Probably because like you said they couldn't get into the Japanese side of the tech site.

They were able to get that main screen to read "Europe / Japanese standard power manual transmission" and another screen with a crap ton of what looked like hex codes that mirrored what I saw on the A/T PCM when they pulled that up. They said they couldn't even try to code the keys because they couldn't access the PATS module portion of the IDS program.

So it looks like either way I'm going to have a DTC, whether its for the immobilizer or the TCM...

Thanks for the response. If I figure anything out, I'll post it here, but I'll probably end up just getting the AP...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

yep, those hex codes is like a key to the system, without it, nothing they can do. and US dealers have no access to the Japan side on this.

ASH8

ALL RX-8 use a PATS system, no matter which country the car is sold in.

There is only one IDS software package for all Mazda vehicles worldwide (for all countries), the PCM communication with IDS (MMDS) reads it's VIN and therefore country.

Naturally, IDS is not going to recognize yours as you are trying to code a system which IDS does not associated with your PCM (VIN or Part Number).

Also a common myth that your PCM allows vehicle entry it does not...It is only the Entry Control Module (immobilizer) which allows you to enter/use the vehicle, this module communicates to PCM to give the OK that you can start/use the car (ignition)...they are two separate systems.

So you are trying to code a system which IDS will not communicate with...

There is what is called Forced As Built Data, which could possibly work, however you need the details from the actual PCM (ECU) you are trying to use in this car...on every PCM there is a PART NUMBER label or PCM Calibration Number, exactly make a written copy of it....An Example...S3ZP 18 881E.

What the IDS user has to enter is the PCM Cal # which is the first 4 alpha/numbers and the very last Letter, in my example S3ZP E, then start a Forced As Built Data Entry Job Aid, or if that fails a PCM Recovery Instruction.

You might then get the IDS to communicate with PCM and then Immobilizer, plus the Dealer or user will have to enter in new In-Codes for Immobilizer and Instrument Cluster and PCM.
Codes (Alpha Numeric) are basically a handshake code which allows proper configuration communication between these modules.

So what happens...IDS generates an OUT Code for each of these modules, the Dealer then logs these OUT Codes in a separate PATS on-line system to generate new IN Codes, which operator then enters in IDS, which will then pass the cars PATS system as being all OK (a usable car)...there is NO way around this, you can not hot wire or change 'some' wiring without CELs or DTC's.

A competent Mazda Dealer should know how to do a Forced As Built or PCM Recovery Instruction and do out and in codes, however, I personally have not tried to code a miss-matched Mazda system from two different regions into one Mazda car...I somehow doubt a Mazda Dealer has also.

You have to also remember you have modules from a US RX-8 Auto (like a auto transmission control module) which still is possibly hard wired in your car with a Japan 5 Speed Manual Trans and Engine, you are almost trying to do a conversion similar to others here who are installing a SAAB engine (whatever engine) in an RX-8 and wanting everything to work without major changes to vehicle electronics.

Remember, so many of Mazda electronic control modules ARE country specific..like
PCM, Immob, Instrument Cluster, Air Bag Control Modules, etc, etc.

Personally I am 50:50 as to whether this can ever work without getting DTC's and or CEL.
I can not really help you remotely anymore.

Perhaps an AP is the way to go...good luck there also.

BTW..Just a couple of things to also remember about PATS systems in proper installed systems.

• There is no communication with PCM:
PCM will always communicate on the diagnostic link regardless of theft status. (Investigate PCM system).

• Engine stalls on road:
Once the engine runs for one second, PATS CANNOT disable the engine. Running stalls are not PATS related issues.

• Remote Entry/Keyless Entry problems:
PATS is completely separate from the Remote Entry/Keyless Entry systems.

• PATS Theft Indicator flashes every 2 seconds at Ignition OFF. This is normal operation for PATS to act as a visual theft deterrent.

• PATS Theft Indicator stays on for 2 or 3 seconds (depending on system type) at Ignition RUN or START.

PATS is (Passive Anti-Theft System)

ASH8

BTW: I have not read you other thread, UO101 is a communication error with TCM is detected in CAN communication.

Edit: Looks like you are getting the U0101 because your Transmission Control Module (only in Auto's) is not connected or working as it is not needed in your Manual?

McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

Yes, U0101 is because I pulled my TCM. If I reinstall it, I'll get 7 separate DTC's and a limp mode.

STFT, LTFT and AFR's are all fine at all throttle positions and all engine load %'s up to 100%.

According to a few people on here, an AP and ATR will mask U0101. I was just trying to see if I could squeak by with the M/T PCM before going COBB.

And thanks for the very detailed post above this one. I'm going to read it a few more times before I even try to explain it to my Mazda dealer. To give you an idea of whom I'm dealing with at my "local" (8 hour round trip drive - the one 30 minutes away won't touch it) Mazda dealer, there is no "senior" or "master" tech. One of the five techs on duty that day had an ASE cert, and it's in Automotive HVAC. All of them, as in every single one, are directly employed by the General Motors dealership down the road (owned by the same people), and show up in GM uniforms to work on Mazdas. When they are done, they ride their bicycles (yup, you heard that right) down to the next dealership to work on another job. As in none of these guys are dedicated Mazda techs. Their service writer was out in the bay trying to help the technician with IDS to program the key.

I don't know if I'll be able to communicate any of what you said to them, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Thanks again for taking the time to try.

McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

Also, they can communicate with the JDM PCM just fine, they just don't know what to do when they're in there to make it "see" and work with the immobilizer module, which is what I think you're trying to explain above with the incode / outcode stuff. What I think they did was download the automatic transmission as-built data into the JDM PCM, and then change the description on that primary screen to read European / Japanese market standard power manual transmission.

I'm going to re-read what you said a 5th time in your first post now.

Also, I read in your first post about making the instrument cluster work with the PCM. It works fine with my A/T PCM, and the cluster I'm using now is out of a European market standard power 5 m/t car.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

it won't work, there is a slight differences between the systems

your best is to source everything from the same car and move everything over. it's a major PITA of course, but that's the only way to get 100% working.

McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

Or use an AP/ATR to mask the missing TCM code and be done with this fiasco. ha ha.

I'd have needed the ignition cylinder, d-side door key cylinder, trunk lock cylinder, immobilizer module, PCM, ABS computer and of course the keys from the other car.

Unfortunately what I got was engine, wiring harness, gearbox, PCM.

I've been reading on here about how others have put JDM PCM's in their 6 port USDM cars, wondering how the hell that's even possible? Are these guys full of sh*t or did they actually magically make it work somehow?

ASH8

M8..I am not going to go into more detail about how/why MMDS/IDS works, if you have never used the system (or have it in a usable system with a specific pass through device, which I have) then it is like trying to teach Japanese in a Forum...well almost....

'Out-Codes' and 'In-codes' on certain modules is there to stop theft, stealing of cars, hot wiring. changing/swapping of modules, blah, blah.
PATS (or early basic immo) is in it's 6th generation with 2013 MY.

When a certain module is renewed it must be configured, MMDS/IDS generates an Out Code, at the same time this Out Code (example 1DC2FT) is then entered separately into a secure code website/system to generate an In-code (example 4B25V1), which is then entered into IDS screen which will then allow configuration of said module/device into cars 'system' to operate without CEL's, Limp, Key lights, or warning lights in instrument clusters (IC), whatever.

Much depends of what model Mazda you are doing alterations on to which modules need IDS.
Particularly if module is a brand new replacement and has never been used in a car before
All need IDS for PCM, Immobilizer...some for Instrument Cluster, some for ABS.

Here is a Mazda model list (PDF) to show you which need IDS to be configure correctly.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-te...r-list-239807/

You clearly stated in your post above that the Mazda Dealer you use is a multi-franchise one (from a small town?, whatever) by the sound of it, many techs have no idea how to correctly use MMDS as they don't have the training, nor do they see cars which present an issue to 'learn' how to use it.
Every car maker has their own system (Mazda-Ford use IDS).

Mazda IDS functions over 4 different Regions, USA (North America), Europe, 4A General (Australia, Oceania), and Japan..

Yes, there are many guys who say they have changed or used particular PCM/ECU's from 'other' countries, but they don't tell you what else does not work in car, or what they use to mask cells, what warning lights...whatever.

McKennaR

iTrader: (1)

Ash, you've done way more than I could have asked for. I appreciate you taking the time to break it down as we say in the Army "Barney Style" for me.

I get what you're saying, but as you've probably figured out by now I'm the kind of idiot person that when someone with infinitely more knowledge and experience than I have tells me something can't be done, I pay absolutely no attention whatsoever and just keep trying until I get tired of chasing my tail.

Anyways, I appreciate your help.

Cheers

Ryan

ASH8

No probs, and no one is an idiot.

It is just a simple fact that cars are not what they used to be, since OBDII (roughly 2001) and the systems they use it is getting harder and harder to make bitsa cars (Bits of this and that) without some sort of com issue.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I hate ASH cuz he has access to all these fun stuff !

Anyway it's always easier to just swap every single thing from one car to another. especially when it comes to one region to another.

ASH8

yup!