Oil in the Intake + Hard Start + Misfires
03-02-2010, 08:48 PM
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Oil in the Intake + Hard Start + Misfires
Old member; new name. Here's the scoop on my car:
I have a Sport packaged '04 manual 8 w/ 81XXX miles. Bone stock. Had the normal recalls completed plus one O2 sensor replaced while under warranty (don't remember which O2 sensor). Three coils have died, one under warranty, one at 56K and one last month. All coils now verified functioning. Wires and leading plugs replaced at 78k. Trailing plugs at sometime. Majority of the miles are highway. Had a puff of white smoke upon a hard take off last summer w/ a resulting rear rotor misfire CEL. Car didn't want to rev. Reset code same day. Everything OK until another rear rotor and general misfire CELs and hard starting within the last two months. Replaced wires and leading plugs and then the third (from front) coil. Reset codes. Helped for a while w/ the starting. Starter has never been replaced but never had trouble starting other than w/ the dead coils (now fixed). Feb '04 build date. I bought her new. I live in the Midwest w/ cold temps in the winter. I take great care of my car!
Here's what's up:
I have an excessive amount of oil coming into the intake. It's ending up going into the black plastic "box thingy" (help w/ correct name) on the side of the intake above the wires (first pic w/ red arrow) and down below the air filter box (second pic). I've been keeping track recently and had the amount of oil pictured end up in the "box thingy" only after around 65 miles (third pic). She's also been hard to start, especially when warm. I've also had high RPM (third/forth gears) misfires lately (premium gas is good). There are three hoses that go into the intake. Two are from down in the engine (don't know where they originate from) and one from the top of the oil filler neck (yellow arrow). Forth pic is a shot into the intake w/ the "box thingy" removed where the three hoses end up. No way I should have that much oil entering the intake! Haven't been to the dealer yet but probably going in next week. Car generally seems to run OK (other than the misfires). Checked numerous hoses, wires, etc. Everything's good. Suggestions?
I have a Sport packaged '04 manual 8 w/ 81XXX miles. Bone stock. Had the normal recalls completed plus one O2 sensor replaced while under warranty (don't remember which O2 sensor). Three coils have died, one under warranty, one at 56K and one last month. All coils now verified functioning. Wires and leading plugs replaced at 78k. Trailing plugs at sometime. Majority of the miles are highway. Had a puff of white smoke upon a hard take off last summer w/ a resulting rear rotor misfire CEL. Car didn't want to rev. Reset code same day. Everything OK until another rear rotor and general misfire CELs and hard starting within the last two months. Replaced wires and leading plugs and then the third (from front) coil. Reset codes. Helped for a while w/ the starting. Starter has never been replaced but never had trouble starting other than w/ the dead coils (now fixed). Feb '04 build date. I bought her new. I live in the Midwest w/ cold temps in the winter. I take great care of my car!
Here's what's up:
I have an excessive amount of oil coming into the intake. It's ending up going into the black plastic "box thingy" (help w/ correct name) on the side of the intake above the wires (first pic w/ red arrow) and down below the air filter box (second pic). I've been keeping track recently and had the amount of oil pictured end up in the "box thingy" only after around 65 miles (third pic). She's also been hard to start, especially when warm. I've also had high RPM (third/forth gears) misfires lately (premium gas is good). There are three hoses that go into the intake. Two are from down in the engine (don't know where they originate from) and one from the top of the oil filler neck (yellow arrow). Forth pic is a shot into the intake w/ the "box thingy" removed where the three hoses end up. No way I should have that much oil entering the intake! Haven't been to the dealer yet but probably going in next week. Car generally seems to run OK (other than the misfires). Checked numerous hoses, wires, etc. Everything's good. Suggestions?
03-02-2010, 08:58 PM
#2
1) Excessive oil is generally due to overfilling.
Also a good idea to use a funnel in the oil filler neck when pour oil in.
2) You should look into purchasing a catch-can.
This will route that hose from the oil filler neck to the catch-can.
You can then either route a line back to the intake (so the catch-can is in between) or install a breather on the "output" of the catch-can and cap the fitting on the intake.
Here is a DIY for the catch-can install:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=catch
3) Make sure all the oil is cleaned out of the intake.
The black box you're referring to is called a resonance chamber.
Also remove the MAF and clean it... that could be what's causing your problems.
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...71&postcount=9
Open the throttle body valve and clean that too.
Stick your finger past the valve and feel if oil is further down the upper intake manifold.
You might have more work ahead of you if you do find oil past the throttle body that can cause you problems in the future... trust me.
ALSO... there is a TSB that routes the hose to the lower intake manifold, but unless you have an extended warranty, you'll end up paying for it.
Might just be cheaper to get the catch-can.
Here is the TSB if you want to look through it:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com...50-06-1664.pdf
Also a good idea to use a funnel in the oil filler neck when pour oil in.
2) You should look into purchasing a catch-can.
This will route that hose from the oil filler neck to the catch-can.
You can then either route a line back to the intake (so the catch-can is in between) or install a breather on the "output" of the catch-can and cap the fitting on the intake.
Here is a DIY for the catch-can install:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=catch
3) Make sure all the oil is cleaned out of the intake.
The black box you're referring to is called a resonance chamber.
Also remove the MAF and clean it... that could be what's causing your problems.
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...71&postcount=9
Open the throttle body valve and clean that too.
Stick your finger past the valve and feel if oil is further down the upper intake manifold.
You might have more work ahead of you if you do find oil past the throttle body that can cause you problems in the future... trust me.
ALSO... there is a TSB that routes the hose to the lower intake manifold, but unless you have an extended warranty, you'll end up paying for it.
Might just be cheaper to get the catch-can.
Here is the TSB if you want to look through it:
http://www.finishlineperformance.com...50-06-1664.pdf
Last edited by Jon316G; 03-02-2010 at 09:09 PM.
03-03-2010, 12:27 AM
#3
there is something wrong that requires repair
I've never had oil come up in the intake, ever. Don't have the TSB fix either, or have I ever seen the milky substance problem.
a catch can is treating the symptom, not curing the disease
for the misfire, try resetting the eccentric shaft profile (search if you don't know what it is, very simple to do)
rarely use an oil funnel either, go figure ...
.
I've never had oil come up in the intake, ever. Don't have the TSB fix either, or have I ever seen the milky substance problem.
a catch can is treating the symptom, not curing the disease
for the misfire, try resetting the eccentric shaft profile (search if you don't know what it is, very simple to do)
rarely use an oil funnel either, go figure ...
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 03-03-2010 at 12:32 AM.
03-03-2010, 03:06 AM
#4
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I've just come into a very similar problem, yesterday. I was doing some "hard revving" and then I experienced a stuttered idle.
The car died, and was having trouble starting- Nothing out of the ordinary I thought, because it has been struggling to start lately- I popped the hood and noticed my air filter was wet looking.
I took the filter off and out poured a mass amount of oil. After a few minutes I got the car to start and drove it home.
Today I took the intake and throttle body out to do some investigating. I have oil clear into the upper manifold.. What does this mean?
I have been experiencing the same hard starts, and fuel spurts also.
The car died, and was having trouble starting- Nothing out of the ordinary I thought, because it has been struggling to start lately- I popped the hood and noticed my air filter was wet looking.
I took the filter off and out poured a mass amount of oil. After a few minutes I got the car to start and drove it home.
Today I took the intake and throttle body out to do some investigating. I have oil clear into the upper manifold.. What does this mean?
I have been experiencing the same hard starts, and fuel spurts also.
03-03-2010, 03:15 AM
#5
Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean others won't have the problem.
I too have never had oil in my intake... but I also do my own oil changes and I'm sure you do to
Unfortunately... I've already seen a couple cars with oil in the intake, one of them caused the SSV to get stuck and the whole upper intake manifold was covered with oil inside:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/rpm-dropping-%3D-engine-stalling-162200/
^post #30 is when I posted the findings.
That is what the TSB is for.
Again... I'm in the same boat as you. I think it comes down to how well you maintain your car.
A local shop isn't going to care for it to the same degree you are.
Just like Vyndictive's car in the link I posted above.
He took it to Midas for an oil change, they overfilled it, then the oil ran up the breather tube and into the intake resulting in a stuck SSV.
Needless to say, he has learned to perform his own fluid swaps
I too have never had oil in my intake... but I also do my own oil changes and I'm sure you do to
Unfortunately... I've already seen a couple cars with oil in the intake, one of them caused the SSV to get stuck and the whole upper intake manifold was covered with oil inside:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/rpm-dropping-%3D-engine-stalling-162200/
^post #30 is when I posted the findings.
That is what the TSB is for.
A local shop isn't going to care for it to the same degree you are.
Just like Vyndictive's car in the link I posted above.
He took it to Midas for an oil change, they overfilled it, then the oil ran up the breather tube and into the intake resulting in a stuck SSV.
Needless to say, he has learned to perform his own fluid swaps
03-03-2010, 03:22 AM
#6
Its also what "inspired" me to create a DIY on removing and cleaning the SSV:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-do-yourself-forum-73/diy-remove-ssv-beta-teaser-video-184663/
But I highly recommend you remove the upper intake manifold and clean that out.
I would clean the MAF.
Refer to my link in post#2 above.
03-03-2010, 12:42 PM
#7
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Thanks for the DIY, When I get some time off from work looks like I am going to have another fun time in my garage. But just being clear that I could have just over filled my oil and that is a reason for the "nose bleed"?
03-03-2010, 07:25 PM
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Thanks all for the suggestions. Just got home from training. I'm kind of drained right now so I'll be brief. Definitely not oil over filling. It has done it w/ less than full fill. I've reset the eccentric shaft numerous times so it's not that. I'll try cleaning everything and see if that does anything.
PS. I'm a very experienced car guy and have done a lot of reading on this forum. I do appreciate everyone's tips. More to come.
PS. I'm a very experienced car guy and have done a lot of reading on this forum. I do appreciate everyone's tips. More to come.
03-03-2010, 07:51 PM
#10
Right... because low compression causes oil to puddle in the intake.Listen... I'm not disagreeing that low compression can cause hard starts and misfires, but suggesting that to be his first "plan of attack" is a little crazy in this situation.
Remember that misfires and hard starts can also be caused by a malfunction with the MAF... or a dirty MAF.
With him having a puddle of oil in the intake (which can contaminate the MAF), its likely that is what is causing his other issues.
So instead of spending $100 for a compression test, why not spend a couple dollars on some cleaner to clean the MAF and the excessive oil in the intake (including the UIM).
Even if the engine came back with having low compression, he still has all that oil in the UIM that needs to be addressed before it causes him further issues such as stuck valves.
So take care of the obvious and cheap/easy solutions first, then if that doesn't work we can go from there.
Last edited by Jon316G; 03-03-2010 at 08:20 PM.
03-04-2010, 03:23 AM
#13
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Oil in the intake can be caused by a compression leak into the crank case.
Why assume you have compression?
Disconnect the coils from the ECU, pull fuel pump relay, remove the leading plugs.
Hold fingers over plug holes while a friend spins the engine.
Does it at least feel even?
Remove fingers, spin again, does it sound even?
This doesn't cost anything, if it doesn't feel right, get a real test..
Why assume you have compression?
Disconnect the coils from the ECU, pull fuel pump relay, remove the leading plugs.
Hold fingers over plug holes while a friend spins the engine.
Does it at least feel even?
Remove fingers, spin again, does it sound even?
This doesn't cost anything, if it doesn't feel right, get a real test..
03-05-2010, 08:04 PM
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OK, I just checked the resonance chamber (thanks Jon316G) after driving about 125 normal miles with a few short instances of high revs. It had WAY too much oil in it (see pic). I even smelled it after a ninety mile, mostly highway, trip today. If that much is getting in the chamber, I wonder how much is being sucked down the intake. Anyway, I'm going to clean everything on my next day off (Tuesday), do the quickie compression test (thanks Rote8) and then make an appointment w/ the dealer if necessary. Stay tuned..........
P.S. Thanks for all of the ideas.
P.P.S. 4k miles on the oil. About time for a change.
P.S. Thanks for all of the ideas.
P.P.S. 4k miles on the oil. About time for a change.
03-09-2010, 08:08 PM
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Update:
Car would not start this morning!
Never had that happen before. It tried to catch but never did. I even held the gas pedal down all the way thinking it was flooded somehow. It revved cleaner w/ no gas getting to it but still would not fire once I tried to start it normally. Finally had to bump start it (thank goodness for hills and sticks). It ran OK once I got it going and restarted "normally" (meaning the way it's been lately) once I drove it to AutoZone to get MAF cleaner.
Then I cleaned the MAF sensor. Ridiculously easy! And yes, the whole housing was covered w/ oil. In fact, oil occupied the space between the brown bulb and the housing. Got it back in and the car feels a bit peppier. It's helped w/ the starting but it's still not starting like it has for the last 5 years.
I then yanked both leading plugs today and did a "poor mans" compression test by holding my fingers up to the plug holes. Hard to really tell for sure but both rotors felt the same. I was surprised by how "weak" the compression felt too. I grew up on small block Chevys w/ strong compression so maybe it's just how rotaries are. Anyway, got an appointment w/ the dealer on Thursday. I'll check both the MAF sensor and resonance chamber Thursday morning to see how much oil got sucked into the intake. Stay tuned............................
Car would not start this morning!
Never had that happen before. It tried to catch but never did. I even held the gas pedal down all the way thinking it was flooded somehow. It revved cleaner w/ no gas getting to it but still would not fire once I tried to start it normally. Finally had to bump start it (thank goodness for hills and sticks). It ran OK once I got it going and restarted "normally" (meaning the way it's been lately) once I drove it to AutoZone to get MAF cleaner.Then I cleaned the MAF sensor. Ridiculously easy! And yes, the whole housing was covered w/ oil. In fact, oil occupied the space between the brown bulb and the housing. Got it back in and the car feels a bit peppier. It's helped w/ the starting but it's still not starting like it has for the last 5 years.
I then yanked both leading plugs today and did a "poor mans" compression test by holding my fingers up to the plug holes. Hard to really tell for sure but both rotors felt the same. I was surprised by how "weak" the compression felt too. I grew up on small block Chevys w/ strong compression so maybe it's just how rotaries are. Anyway, got an appointment w/ the dealer on Thursday. I'll check both the MAF sensor and resonance chamber Thursday morning to see how much oil got sucked into the intake. Stay tuned............................
03-09-2010, 11:02 PM
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Just swapped my K&N intake for an aem today and notice a nice oil puddle in the plastic tube that's right befor the ssv and all the way down to the k&n filter!!!
The filer was soaked!
Also when in park I'm getting a weird noise that sounds like I'm losing power then it pics back up and lots of vibration also when I start the car it's very weak and it does it's normal jump to 2,000 rpm then immediatly drops to 0 I just changed the mounts sparkplugs and wires on Saturday
The filer was soaked!
Also when in park I'm getting a weird noise that sounds like I'm losing power then it pics back up and lots of vibration also when I start the car it's very weak and it does it's normal jump to 2,000 rpm then immediatly drops to 0 I just changed the mounts sparkplugs and wires on Saturday
03-09-2010, 11:39 PM
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Ok kool I just went and did that and started it up!
It started alot better but i still have the powere droping sound
I have a 2.5" exhaust and a 3" straight pipe do u think that this could affect the engine
It started alot better but i still have the powere droping sound
I have a 2.5" exhaust and a 3" straight pipe do u think that this could affect the engine
03-11-2010, 02:19 PM
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TWO WORDS: new engine time (okay maybe three).
Went to dealer today and they conducted several tests, including a compression test. Here are the figures:
Rotor 1: 4.9 kpa (kpa is what he wrote down; I think it should be bar), 5.1, 4.8 @ 197RPM
Rotor 2: 5.0, 5.2, 4.7 @ 200RPM
Tech was on the phone w/ Mazda a few times. Given the borderline compression figures along w/ all the oil coming up into the intake, the service guy came out and said right off the bat that they would be replacing the engine. No problems at all. The tech commented about how clean the car and engine is and even wondered if I had already had a replacement motor (yes, it pays to take care of your car). I typed out a couple of paragraphs of everything that I had done to try to correct the issues and gave it to them before they started the diagnosing. I think they understood that they were dealing w/ someone who already had all of the facts, knew his car and took care of it. So, engine will be here next week and should be in by next Friday. Thumbs up to Mazda for doing the right thing.
Went to dealer today and they conducted several tests, including a compression test. Here are the figures:
Rotor 1: 4.9 kpa (kpa is what he wrote down; I think it should be bar), 5.1, 4.8 @ 197RPM
Rotor 2: 5.0, 5.2, 4.7 @ 200RPM
Tech was on the phone w/ Mazda a few times. Given the borderline compression figures along w/ all the oil coming up into the intake, the service guy came out and said right off the bat that they would be replacing the engine. No problems at all. The tech commented about how clean the car and engine is and even wondered if I had already had a replacement motor (yes, it pays to take care of your car). I typed out a couple of paragraphs of everything that I had done to try to correct the issues and gave it to them before they started the diagnosing. I think they understood that they were dealing w/ someone who already had all of the facts, knew his car and took care of it. So, engine will be here next week and should be in by next Friday. Thumbs up to Mazda for doing the right thing.
Last edited by Tri 8; 03-11-2010 at 07:30 PM.
03-19-2010, 07:03 PM
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New Motor Coming Along
The new motor is physically in but I'm waiting for a new clutch disk before tranny gets installed. New motor came w/ flywheel and water pump. Car won't be don't until Monday now. Tired of driving this automatic equipped rental. I want my 8 back!
Pic is of old motor taken w/ cell. Lots of oil in the intake ports. Good riddance!
Pic is of old motor taken w/ cell. Lots of oil in the intake ports. Good riddance!
04-17-2010, 03:48 PM
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Mazda service department told me that misfires could cause oil to 'leak' into the intake. I didn't really believe it because I generally assume they don't know what they're talking about, but neither do I, and they had replaced my coils under warranty so I didn't argue. By the next day my car was using 3-4 quarts of oil and I needed a new engine.
Last edited by robrecht; 04-17-2010 at 03:51 PM.