vegas RX8

I'm seriously getting very frustrated w/ the PCM reflashes and my dealer here in Vegas. The 'knocking' and loss of power described in the PCM TSB (MSP04) just cant be fixed. I've taken it in for all the reflashes and this last one, (N) or (P), didn't to a freakin thing. I still get the random knocking and loss of power and it just pisses the crap out of me. I've called Mazda NA/Operations and they just tell me to take it to the dealer and that they'll fix the problem. It just sucks now that the heat is here in Vegas and the knocking breaks my heart. I love this car and I even hate thinking about giving it up, but damn it's frustrating. Is there anything more I can say/do at the dealership to make sure it's fixed? Anyways sorry for venting and I'd appreciate any advice. THX. vegas.

xxup

Not just poor quality fuel????

Has the dealer heard the noise?? I would have thought that Mazda people would be falling over themselves to help you with this problem.. May be another dealer could help???

Razz1

Check with Omnicron and Mazda Maniac.

Sounds like those tertery ports are not opening or what ever they are called.

You will need the print out from the site and the instructions on how to check it out.

Also, there is an aftermarket radiator that increases cooling 30% and vented hoods.

You may also have a lean running high HP engine from the factory thats producing alot of RWHP.

Many people in other states would love to have one of those instead of a pig rich, gas guzzeling EPA model.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Vegas, I have been playing with using some two-stroke pre-mix in the gas tank for the past couple of nights, alongside using 20W50 oil in the oil pan. Both of those ideas quieted down the engine and the pre-mix really made the engine run smooth up until 9,500 rpm's. I am going to swap back to the 5W20 and see if the pre-mix idea, thanks to Shocar, is the greater of the two solutions.

In the Mazda MSP04 campaign it was explained that the "loss of power" and "noise" issues were/are caused by insufficient MOP volume at high rpm's. In this case it seems to occur above 6-7K. For quite a while Racing Beat has offered a metering oil pump mod that increases the output by over 30% and they recommend this mod for any power levels over stock as the metering pump is maxxed out as it is. It was noted, by Razz1 I think, that Mazda is now replacing the factory MOP with a modified/H.O. version that is quite similar to the R.B. version on all vehicles with a CEL due to the oil pump issue.

Razz, please correct me if I am mistaken.

For those familiar with piston engines, the noise that is heard with poor sealing sounds similar to valve float as the net effect is the same, combustion gasses and dynamic pressure are bled into the intake ports.

Also, according to the Mazda shop manual it is acceptable to use higher viscosity oils such as 10W30, 15W40, 20W50, and such. The manual makes no caution regarding synthetic oils, either. Vegas, you may wish to consider using a 10W30 oil in your climate.
CRH

army_rx8

hmm i wonder how much it'll cost to get the new oil pump from mazda (with the higher output)...does it put out a 30% increase like RB's? hmm i'm sure it wont' be lesw than what RB charges...but you have to send them your oil pump for the modification don't you? too bad i only have one car and it' my 8 lol can't really drive aroudn with out an oil pump.

wintergrn

Just to add to Charles' suggestion, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the standard oil in the Australian market is 10W-30. Similar climate to yours, I imagine.

vegas RX8

XXup- I've been using 91 octane since day one, 90% chevron and the other probably shell/76 so I don't believe it's the gas. I don't think they've been able to reproduce the noise since usually when I take it in, the temp. is a lot cooler (am) and the car hasn't been running for 30-40 minutes.thx for your input.

Razz- I think it has to do more w/ "not enough oil is being supplied to the apex and side seals at the rotor housing" (Charles has explained it on other posts & also on the TSB) As far as aftermarket radiator, don't you think Mazda should still fix the issue? Before buying any aftermarket parts on my own and possibly voiding my warranty, I'd like for them (Mazda/my dealer) to try and fix it. thx for your input as well.

Charles- I guess my frustrations are really w/ my local dealer here in Vegas. The suggestions you made regarding the mixture and the oil seem like good viable options for trying to correct the problem. Since I'm not the most knowlable guy on cars, specially rotaries, I'm trying to have the dealership (who you'd think would know this car pretty well now) handle all my maintenance. And if they are changing out the MOP for some I'd like for my dealer to at least really check out the problem. I usually have to print out the TSB and nag them about it for a minute or two.thx.

***I will be taking it to a different dealer as soon as I finish this post and go talk to them about the issue and see if they can do a better job. Again thanks for you posts and I'll post after I get back to tell you what happened. vegas.

vegas RX8

Turns out service is closed until Tuesday morning.vegas

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Vegas, the most important part about the pre-mix option is short-term or investigative in purpose. I refuse to continue the rest of my days driving my RX-8 adding oil to the gas. The whole purpose of the MOP was to eliminate the need for additional oil in high rpm use. Remember, the Renesis has an additional 1,500 rpm capability over the FD in stock trim. It's true the Aussie market is told to use 10W30. I plan on sticking with the 5W20 because I live the way the engine revs with it(for obvious reasons).

Razz1, can you give us more detail on that MOP swap you mentioned elsewhere? Vegas and I may have to nag the dealers a bunch to get it done. I'd rather have Mazda replace my pump for free than pay R.B. $275 for it. At least for now.

I just got back from running a few errands and the pre-mix idea is definitely more effective than going to a thicker oil. My nitrous pulls stronger and much farther in the rpm band, more like it used to, and the engine has none of the blow-by noise from before. I'll do a G-Tech run tonight on my way out to the street races and report back tomorrow.

BTW, the factory radiator is more than capable of cooling the engine. I went to Atlanta and raced/ragged the Hell out of my engine(as did several other RX-8 owners) and I don't think any of our fans ever cycled while at the track.

CRH

slllygrl10

Hey army I have been trying to PM you. I need to talk to you on something you might be interested. PM me for my number and delete some of ur PM's !

Noguni

I live in vegas also and I have tried all grades of gas without problems. I think you should go to the dealership every week until the problem is fixed or until you get a new engine. Did you experience the knocking when you test drove the car? Try taking it to another dealership, If you go to the one in henderson ask for Dustin. He takes care of my 8 and is also an owner of an 8.

vegas RX8

Noguni- I've had the car since Oct. 2003 and it didn't have any problems until that first reflash TSB was issued. The reflashes worked for a while and I have to keep taking it in every time there is a new TSB for reflash of the PCM. There have been what, 3-5 reflashes. The last one, 'N' I think, just hasn't solved the problem and I've already taken it to Magic Mazda, formerly Courtesy Mazda @ W. Sahara, twice and it still is randomly running like ****. I may have to try the Mazda dealership in Henderson and hope for the best. vegas.

SomeGuy_sg

Why not go for an engine swap from a RX7

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

What? And change Apex seals with every oil change? No thanks. I'd be willing to bet that when we start seeing power levels like 350-400 h.p. out of the Renesis that RX-7 owners will want to swap the Renesis into their cars, despite the current trouble some of us are having.

After my excursion this evening(Saturday), I am seriously beginning to consider putting my car back to stock, selling it, offering my parts to you guys at a huge discount(except for the nitrous kit), and getting a new Mustang with my Ford employee discount. What the Hell. I can cut my payments in half and get some relief from this headache of mine. I can't figure out how my car went from running 13.7's to now running 14.4's seemingly overnight. I am quite discouraged right now. Sorry to be such a bitch.

CRH

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Charles,
Blasphemy! Blasphemy!
Seriuosly man ! Dont sell your 8 dude. You are not a quitter! Patience man. I think we are all wanting more out of this engine too soon. If you want to really get it on then get the turbo or at least get the cz unit and tune it to your hearts content! Heck if you sell the parts you have you probaly can cover over 1/2 the cost of the turbo setup! Dont forget how good this chassis/car is. And the engine is not bad ----just new!
Olddragger

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Here's my current thinking; I have probably had this low MOP volume for quite a while and only recently has it become audible. I am willing to bet that those stories we have read about involving replacement engines and Mazda inquiries directly to the customer are all for this reason. Racing Beat says that the factory MOP volume is sufficient only for stock power levels. I wish I had heeded their information sooner. For almost 35,000 miles I have had several aftermarket parts and a nitrous system. With all of this stuff and insufficient MOP volume my guess is that my seals are not able to hold the housing pressures even if my Mazda mechanic thinks they are in good shape. They are probably sealing just fine until the third ports open up to make some serious power at which point they cannot hold the full pressure.

Here is the pitbull attitude in me now that I have slept on it; since I am about to lose my license and my car will get booted, too, I might as well go full apeshit on the engine and pull it out and rebuild it. While it is out I can get the MOP modded, do a porting job, fabricate that prototype header I have been yapping about, get the R.B. lightweight rotors(because people wanna know if they are effective), make the sandwich plates all pretty by painting them red, get the Acosta UIM(mostly for looks, but somewhat for airflow), and do whatever other mods I can think of while I have each part in my hand. From surface-treating to machining for better balance to whatever.

As a matter of fact, I think I'll start a thread on the idea. Please see my "While I Have the Engine Out...." thread.

CRH

vegas RX8

Damn dude, good luck if you do decide to do all that w/ your car. As for me I'm going to keep hounding Mazda until they fix this stupid MOP issue. So are they (Mazda/dealership)just trying to get by w/ the reflashes instead of replacing the pump? It seems that way to me, hopefully this next trip to the dealership will produce some positive results. My 8 is stock and it's having a tough time w/ the stock pump. I'm thinking cuz of the high temps. but I wonder if anyone else here in Vegas or similar climate is also experiencing this with the MOP?vegas.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Vegas, you would be doing yourself a favor by either getting the R.B. MOP mod done or seeing if Mazda swaps in a high-volume MOP before you embark on h.p.-boosting mods. I may have been a bit too enthusiastic with my car and probably hastened ny seal wear by not knowing about the MOP issue before I started with the nitrous stuff. I'll be watching to see where the turbo owners end up. I have a couple other things I'll be following up on before I decide to just freshen up the engine and start over.

CRH

demob05

Would there be any Carbon build up problems over time with a higher volume MOP???

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Not in this case because the high volume piston doesn't come into play until high rpm's and high load situations. Oil consumption is raised only when it is needed. Racing Beat has a good explanation on their website.

CRH

Jaguar_MBA

Charles, how much pre-mix oil did you add to a full tank of gas? Which amount did you think helped the engine the most? I have been adding pre-mix to my 8 off and on, mainly on long drives. I add ~4 ounces per ~12.5 gallons of fuel...however much I need to fill the tank up.

zoom44

first lets back up- until someone posts up actual mazda part numbers or an actual mazda tsb this MOP is FANTASY. stop talking about it as if it exists. the first instance anyone talked about it i could find was in the thread where mazaspeedgirl said her mechanic put one in. this is the same place that has swapped out 6 engines in autos in lubbuck. i have yet to see proof that this is a different pump from anyone.

second- vegas: as charles has even shown with all his nitrous work - these engines just dont knock. dannobre and a couple others will back me up on this. ifyou are having actual ongoing knock then it is more than a software issue. then need to find the problem. have you changed gas? have they done a compression check. have they cleaned the carbon out of your engine andchanged plugs? these things need to be done

charles have you had a compression check?

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

The matter of pre-mix: I used 1 oz. per gallon(1:128 ratio). However, I don't think that any of us that do not subject our RX-8s to daily racing-type abuse need to do it. The MOP volume is said by Racing Beat to be adequate for stock power levels. I have had no problems with my own car until recently and that came on suddenly. Whether my problems are nitrous backfire-related, I don't know, but the pre-mix, while it may have reduced some of the noise I have been hearing came at the expense of about 15-20 h.p. I am ridding my tank of the pre-mix that is in it and it is starting to run a little crisper and more responsive. Besides, the pre-mix idea was just an investigative move and nothing more than a Band-Aid.

I would characterize my experience as proof that the Renesis can handle various types of abuse that would have killed any previous versions of the rotary. I have been able to get my engine to knock and even ran the nitrous into the fuel cut and it was still fine. A compression check is next on my list of things to do but it should be noted that the car runs and idles smooth. It is at high rpm's that I begin to have noises and issues. Even the nitrous works as it should below 6K.

I don't think the MOP is fantasy unless you are talking about the H.O. MOP story. The Mazda MSP where they explain the MOP volume as an issue is the MSP04 that is on the Finish Line Perf. website. There is a link on a sticky. I never would have thought about the MOP as a problem without the MSP04 because I didn't really know anything about the MOP until I read the bulletin and did my follow up on it.

CRH

zoom44

yes i mean the new better MOP story. there just isnt one that i can find. there hasnt been any change to teh mazda part number. no buletin about it nothing.

i am intimately familiar with MSP04. i spent 2 months last year explaining it over and over again. yes they increased MOP function for better lube at high rpm. but there was also a change to mop output at idle and low rpm. they reduced the amount used to reduce fuel dilution and aid starting- flood prevention and less carbon build up. but the current pump as has been stated is more than enough for stock rx8's.

on your car this wont be an issue charles but- a low compression test could be a sign of carbon build up and require only cleaning for many people not engine replacement. i have a feeling the dealer in lubbock just kept tearing engines out after the first one that had a problem instead of actually finding and fixing(cleaning) the problem.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

The service manual itself says in many cases to rebuild the engine if certain simple things like low idle vacuum are discovered. I am sure low compression requires the same according to Mazda.

CRH