Mitch Strickler

To Maolin34 (I hope I remembered that correctly) --

Your car is not only under warranty, but in the first year, when so-called "adjustments" should all be done without cost, not just repairs of things that break.

Everyone in the world knows that the RX8 is sub-par on mileage. (I know a few people on the forum report tolerable mileage, somewhere close to EPA. They had good luck, but they are in the minority.) Even Road & Track commented on it in the current issue, although they like the car. So we're not talking about some off the wall request, as Mazda well knows. The least they owe is to check cars that are delivering terrible mileage to see if there is anything that shows on on their instruments and can be improved.

Others on the forum have reported that dealers suggested the kind of test you describe, which makes me think that they got the idea from MazdaUSA. And I'd give odds that Mazda will pay for it on warranty. Of course, what they pay dealers is less than the retail labor charge. Not that I'm accusing your dealer of ripping you off by going for the higher rate, or ripping you off twice by doing that and also charging Mazda -- just wondering.

In the Washington, DC area there are lots of Mazda dealers, and they are interested in getting RX8 service business, including warranty work like the seatbag recall. If you are in range of other dealers, I'd look for a better one than you're dealing with now.

Mitch

For the record, at 9,000 miles my AT gets 15-16 in the city, 22.6 on the road -- and that's an improvement of about one mpg after I got the M flash. The dealer said my ECU checked out OK, although they probably didn't do the instrumented road test.

RX4+30Years=RX8

Well I have been only doing in town driving for the most part unless you count 5 mph rush hour traffic as highway.:D

I have also been driving manual transmissions since 1968 and even my RX-4 was manual. The Renesis is just a different critter. It really likes to REV. I believe the extremely low mileage that I observed was due to the load on single intake operation and the lack of torque below 3200 rpm. There was probably some plug fouling in there as well since there wasn't enough heat to burn them clean.

The whole issue probably boils down to the MAF on my car forcing it to run rich. Some time this week I plan to take it to the dealership and have them check this theory out.

scubacap

I've noticed that all the cars who got the "M" FLash were MT. Did anyone get it done on a AT?

Mitch Strickler

I don't notice any performance change after getting the M flash on my early-VIN AT, and my idle may even be a little rougher, but my road mileage (av. 3 tanks on same trip) went from 21.5 to 22.6.

The funny part is flooding. I had been very careful for a year, and never came close to flooding, hard starting, etc. The manager of the dealer's body shop -- who used to drive an RX7 -- started up my car in the morning, moved it about 100 feet into the shop, and turned it off. Result: I had to wait an extra day for the car to come back, but got new spark plugs together with the rest of the flooding repair. Some people on the forum think it is impossible to flood after the M flash, but I'm here to tell you that a 100% stupid procedure will do it.

Mitch

RotaMotion

PoLaK,

Thank you for the excellent explanation. I love data It’s an engineering thing My apologies in advance, but due to your outstanding knowledge in this area I would like to pummel you with several questions that I have not been able to answer after hours of searching and reading on this forum :D

Anywhere I can get more technical data on the flashes?

Any news on a "N" flash with further HP and mileage improvements, or does the TSB on the M flash by Mazda an indication of closure and that they have done all they are going to do for the 2004 8s and they're moving onto 2005 with, maybe, a redesigned cat among other things…?

Now for what’s really been nagging me:

Is there anywhere in the world that the 247 hp engine management program was actually released or anyone who has been able to get their hands one? The reason I ask is we’re all disappointed about the flash mess. It feel like we lost something and our 8s aren’t all they can be. Plus it’s just frustrating getting decreased performance and MPG--that’s such a Loose, Loose situation.

But how do we know what we really lost without comparing it to actual hard data? Yes I know the dyno numbers and MPG are undisputedly down, but what would they have really been in true production form (more hard data) vs. what we think they should have been?

Specifically, if the disappearing 247 hp engine management program ever made it out there:
1) What sort of mileage are they getting?
2) How’s the performance?
3) Do the exhaust pipes soot? If so, how much? I've got the "m" flash and their full of soot within a few days of washing--and I don't think it's all from burning oil.
4) Is flooding an issue?

I really want to know the Renesis is truly capable of with a fully optimized and heavily tested/debugged PCM program? Then I want to get there And if I have to replace my Cat at 70K, so be it. I'll be worth it

wakeech

the 247 code would be "I" (i suppose), and no i don't think you could get that flash anymore.

there are people, most notably in my mind Canzoomer (look for his banner at the top of the forum in the ad space, or go down to the vendors section), who are working to get all of this back, and then some. pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

The simple fact is that no motor is in any country is running 247hp.
However, the J-spec Rx-8's are running a significantly more horsepower then our cars.
I have it on good authority that on an engine dyno an A-spec car with M flash will make between 219-222CrankHP. A J-spec about 10Hp more then that.

There is a possibility of extracting 247Hp out of the engine, but your car will not pass EPA2 emissions (which are not pending in Japan)
If you decided to do that, all that would be necessary would be ordering the ECU from the J-Spec Mazdaspeed Rx8. Thats right kiddies, the MS 8 is running a different Ecu you can actually order it, and it has a different part number from the stock ECU.

I have not heard any "official" news on an N flash. However I wouldn't doubt it because some cars such as mine run leaner stock then other cars with the same flash on it. This is due to minuet variance in the MAF sensor on each car explained in my June article you better hope you have a subscription. Anyway because cars such as mine run leaner they will actually ping with 93 or 94 octane gas while the engine is still warming up and I'm at about 50% throttle. N flash may be an option for the guys such as me that have problems with pinging while the engine is cold. But having said that if they do release an N flash i wouldn't get it as I’ve dynoed a best of 187 SAE, unless of course when winter hits the Ping becomes more prominent.

This MAF sensor variance also partly explains why you have such widely varying dyno results, 160-190whp.

Those that dyno at 160 are in the way below average range and if they should decided to equip CZ Stage 1 then with some quick custom tuning they could easily gain the 20-30hp that the cars running 180's-190s already have.

wankel8

Can someone please save me the trouble of reading through 31 pages of the other thread and tell me how you can determine which flash is installed on the vehicle? Thanks so much!

__________________________________________________ __________________________


Edit: If you have had your car serviced/reflashed all you have to do is look either under your hood or by the driver’s side door for a Mazda Service sticker. It will have a Part Number that ends in a Letter, which signifies the level flash you have.

If you have never had the car serviced, turn your key to the "on" position, then depress the break 20times in 8secs (lot of work), if you have either L or M your oil pressure gauge will sweep from 0 to half to 0. If it doesn't you have pre-LorM

-Polak

RotorMotor04

WOW!!! Great post POLAK, I thought i knew about the flashes until i just read that.

Doctor Bob

PoLaK,

You're the MAN! Thanks for making this understandable for all of us to assimilate. I had my 8 reflashed to M due to few hard starts and I do get the oil gauge sweep but dealer did not put sticker under hood or door. Should I request this or is it necessary?

Thanks!

Bob

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

No the sticker is a useless formality if the dealer really had to know what flash your car was running then all they would have to do is hook it up to the WDS tool.

zoom44

yeah most of the service depts. dont have any stickers and it seems they cant order any more.

RotaMotion

7/26/2004
Thanks PoLaK,

Any data if the J-Specs get better MPG. I'm in the 17mpg club with about 800 miles on my 8 It’s spunky, but I’m still having a hard time accepting mid-size sport ute MPG from an 3000 lbs car. Still, I just love this car. It's like a 4-wheeled drug that I can't get enough of

Did a web search on ordering an ECU from the J-Spec Mazdaspeed Rx8. Checked out a bunch of vendors, didn't find anything...

I’m really hoping someone comes out with an ECU programmer and there will be a bunch of maps we can swap, discuss, and experiment with so we can find the map that works best for our 8 and flash it ourselves. The best part would be having the ability to flash it back to stock before going to the dealer or doing a smog sniff.

BTW, I'm looking forward to my first issue of RX Tuner

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

It seems that the WRX owners enjoy the most out of ECU tuning options with the AccessECU solution. Read their thread here: http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c;f=1;t=000007 Why can we not approach http://www.accessecu.com/products/accessport.html and make a plea for our 8's??? What is the cost of this idea? It seems that we are going to have to wait for Racing Beat to beat this problem. Any thoughts?

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

Mileage is all in how you drive and where your driving (in the power curve). If you go 100% throttle a lot then you mileage will be crappy because your Air to Fuel Ratio is richer then if you were to be at 30% throttle and accelerate slowly up to speed. But you bought a sports car to have fun not to drive at 20-30% throttle.

As far as where you will get the best mileage when i dynoed my car in 5th gear, the map in 5th gear is nearly identical to the map in 6th gear (M Flash) , this is what i found. Looking at the AFR your leanest spots are at 63mph, 83mph, and the leanest at 96. Do not drive 70-78 there is a big dip to rich here where you don't want to be.

For example just recently on my return trip from KD rotary i was using the northeast extension, and before anyone grills me for speeding again this road is considered lawless, and most do high 80's on it. I traveled 95-99 mph for a good 150miles and i hadn't even gotten to half a tank yet. When i tanked up i got 26mpg.

This also is due in part to my MAF variance being on a very extreme end so my car does run a lot leaner then most... anyone recall the 31mpg thread i had yeah.. EAT IT!

If anyone is going to carry the MazdaSpeed ECU it’s going to have to be a vendor in Japan.

Well Canzoomer’s Stage 1 is basically what you’re describing. Coupled with the CANscan tool that accurately logs your AFR. You can then upload a map via a USB serial cable that plugs into the unit and a laptop in your passenger side seat, you can fine tune a map yourself according to the data you logged with the CANscan tool. However this is easier said then done it will take lots of time and trial and error. It will be significantly easier with cars that already dyno low 160-170 and significantly harder with cars like mine dynoing high 180's.

I logged my MAF sensor input and had a custom map made dynoed that an only made 5 extra WHP, and then i fine tuned it again and came out with around 8WHP gain. But my car wasn't comfortable with the level it was being pushed to while the engine was still cold it would ping horribly so i had to back the tune off to around +5WHP again. But gaining 30 hp in a 160whp car would be quite easy.
Hence why Maurice’s unit works better with some cars.

rx8spiritR

so you've mention about the J-spec Mazdaspeed ECU, how does it compare to the canzoomer ECU? you've also mention it won't pass EPA2, but since I don't give a damn about it, can I use 91 octane with that ECU? do this ECU require other mods due to the different between U.S model and Japan model? thanks

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

Well the MazdaSpeed Ecu looks like a stock unit with a mazdaspeed flash on it, CZ-1 is a piggy back that alters the signal that is sent from the Stock ECU.

I'm not an octane expert there have been some lengthy discussions about why the east coast has 93 the west coast (where you live) has 91 and how it all equals 98RON found in Japan but im not familiar with the technicalities.

I cannot think of any other repercussions beside emissions that would be caused by running a J-spec unit on a A-spec car but there could be something im not remembering it is 4:00am.

hobbes

Thanks for the FYI of Flashes Polak.

Since I drive an AT, I wonder how the flashes effect my car? The car was bulit Jan 2004 according to the door sticker. I had some small issues with the car and had it in the dealers where they performed "all the ECU updates" as they tell me, at that time; early-mind June 2004. I asked about the M Flash and the service people sort of stared back at me with a blank. So I'm not to sure if they did the M flash or not. I will be getting my first oil change next month (5000KM) and will do to their other location. I know an other member had his M-flash done there.
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Honda Cbr125Rr History

legokcen

I had heard that there was a new N flas out there. I already got the M flash about 5000 miles ago. I took my car in for an oil change today and they said they upgraded to the newest PCM when I complained about a loppy idle. What does the N flash do? Anything different or just a refinement of the M flash?

cgrx

**** I hope not. What are they going to do at the end of the alphabet. A2, B2, C2...

Unless it is some lost HP :D

zoom44

there is NO N flash as of today!!!!!!!! well ok actually i havent checked in a coupl of days. but what your dealer did was see the msp04 under the warrenty info when you went in for service and did that. It's the M flash but many of them for some reason ARE JUST NOW FINDING OUT ABOUT IT. so they pretend they are doing you a favor when in actuality, if you really had M before and not L, they are just making sure you are up to date acting like they did something.

zoom44

ok so i jusr checked and the WDS calibration level is still 32.4 which is what it was last week. so no Nflash yet.

RotaMotion

PoLaK,

Thanks for the education

Rotoman

PoLak, with all these flashes coming out, does anyone know if any of these make more power or are they just trying to fix some bad programing.. My car was built in Oct-04 and the car runs perfect, but if I feel one of these flashes will increase my power I will take it in to my dealer..

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

If your car was built in OCT you most likely have K flash, however do the brake tap test to be sure you don't have L or M.

If you do have K you will feel a big difference switching over to M, M gives you way more acceleration down low, as well as better mileage, less chance of flooding it is the best flash available, and yes it does make more power.

If you do the brake test and see the needle sweep but you don't know if you have L or M check for a sticker, however even if you have L i would just wait for the next time you get your oil changed to have it updated. The major difference between L and M in terms of power is not making more but moving the power around.

Lemme explain, L is a very "peaky" flash meaning that most of the power is made from 6-9000rpms, M moves some of that power down low to give you more streetablity. And if you’re a drag racer M allows you to run a faster 1/4mile, because the extra power down low it allows you to run the 1/4 without shifting into 4th at the very end of the run as with previous flashed. Basically you'll have a better time but a lower Trap Speed.