CEL - P2097 - Need help understanding the FSM!
09-01-2011, 03:31 PM
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CEL - P2097 - Need help understanding the FSM!
the first line of the FSM for a p2097 DTL says,
"Target A/F feedback system too rich"
"The PCM monitors the target A/F fuel trim when under the target A/F feedback control. If the fuel trim is less than the specification, the PCM determines that the target A/F feedback system is too rich."
1 - From what I understand of the first line It's saying that the ECU watches the amount of fuel correction when under the "target A/F feedback control".... I'm guessing that's "closed loop" operation based off readings from the 02's? like just at idle?
2 - from what I can understand from the rest, its saying that the if the amount of fuel being sprayed is too low.. The ECU determines that the car must be running rich right?
3 - Also, I read a few places that p2097 means "bank 1 sensor 2" malufunction, but the FSM says either of the 02's...(and a million other things...)
If it is just the rear 02 wouldn't that mean that it's most likely a sensor or cat converter issue??
4 - is there any way to monitor the 02 sensor outputs or voltages to look for anything strange?
Right now the car is running really rough between 1-2 or 3k rpms. Sometimes it's good but sometimes it just crawls. It seems to have trouble starting too.
I know spark plugs and coils are up on the list, I'm just trying to learn more about this CEL.
"Target A/F feedback system too rich"
"The PCM monitors the target A/F fuel trim when under the target A/F feedback control. If the fuel trim is less than the specification, the PCM determines that the target A/F feedback system is too rich."
1 - From what I understand of the first line It's saying that the ECU watches the amount of fuel correction when under the "target A/F feedback control".... I'm guessing that's "closed loop" operation based off readings from the 02's? like just at idle?
2 - from what I can understand from the rest, its saying that the if the amount of fuel being sprayed is too low.. The ECU determines that the car must be running rich right?
3 - Also, I read a few places that p2097 means "bank 1 sensor 2" malufunction, but the FSM says either of the 02's...(and a million other things...)
If it is just the rear 02 wouldn't that mean that it's most likely a sensor or cat converter issue??
4 - is there any way to monitor the 02 sensor outputs or voltages to look for anything strange?
Right now the car is running really rough between 1-2 or 3k rpms. Sometimes it's good but sometimes it just crawls. It seems to have trouble starting too.
I know spark plugs and coils are up on the list, I'm just trying to learn more about this CEL.
09-08-2011, 08:08 PM
#6
wow ... simply wow ...
what part of running too rich that u don't understand ... ?
if u really don't understand what that means, you should really let someone else who KNOWS what they're doing to fix your car ... seriously, just stop fuxking up your car.
what part of running too rich that u don't understand ... ?
if u really don't understand what that means, you should really let someone else who KNOWS what they're doing to fix your car ... seriously, just stop fuxking up your car.
09-09-2011, 02:39 PM
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My first question pertains to closed loop operations when at idle. And if that's when it's getting the readings.
the second question pertains to where the indication of "rich" is being given from..., directly by the 02's or if its based of the fuel trims (which is based of the 02's).
the third questions pertains to whether the code means "running rich" or "bank one sensor two 02 sensor error" which is what it says if you use a code reader...
the fourth question is pretty self explanitory.
None of those questions are asking WHAT rich is.... derf.
1 - From what I understand of the first line It's saying that the ECU watches the amount of fuel correction when under the "target A/F feedback control".... I'm guessing that's "closed loop" operation based off readings from the 02's? like just at idle?
2 - from what I can understand from the rest, its saying that the if the amount of fuel being sprayed is too low.. The ECU determines that the car must be running rich right?
3 - Also, I read a few places that p2097 means "bank 1 sensor 2" malufunction, but the FSM says either of the 02's...(and a million other things...)
If it is just the rear 02 wouldn't that mean that it's most likely a sensor or cat converter issue??
4 - is there any way to monitor the 02 sensor outputs or voltages to look for anything strange?
2 - from what I can understand from the rest, its saying that the if the amount of fuel being sprayed is too low.. The ECU determines that the car must be running rich right?
3 - Also, I read a few places that p2097 means "bank 1 sensor 2" malufunction, but the FSM says either of the 02's...(and a million other things...)
If it is just the rear 02 wouldn't that mean that it's most likely a sensor or cat converter issue??
4 - is there any way to monitor the 02 sensor outputs or voltages to look for anything strange?
09-10-2011, 01:30 AM
#8
Registered User
Except
You see
Were posting a question because we know Its running Rich and what that means but it doesn't mean there isn't still a dozen or more probable causes,
Derf
If you don't know enough about a subject to help, go on a thread where you don't need to cover it up by trying to pretend we're asking where the fuxking oil goes.
Trust me, you don't sound smart right now,
Just arrogant and clueless and incapable of reading before you comment.
K thanks.
And thank you rxsoldier, YOU HAVE BEEN very knowledgable and helpful and we both appreciate it alot
09-10-2011, 03:20 PM
#10
Hi,
Except
You see
Were posting a question because we know Its running Rich and what that means but it doesn't mean there isn't still a dozen or more probable causes,
Derf
If you don't know enough about a subject to help, go on a thread where you don't need to cover it up by trying to pretend we're asking where the fuxking oil goes.
Trust me, you don't sound smart right now,
Just arrogant and clueless and incapable of reading before you comment.
K thanks.
And thank you rxsoldier, YOU HAVE BEEN very knowledgable and helpful and we both appreciate it alot
Except
You see
Were posting a question because we know Its running Rich and what that means but it doesn't mean there isn't still a dozen or more probable causes,
Derf
If you don't know enough about a subject to help, go on a thread where you don't need to cover it up by trying to pretend we're asking where the fuxking oil goes.
Trust me, you don't sound smart right now,
Just arrogant and clueless and incapable of reading before you comment.
K thanks.
And thank you rxsoldier, YOU HAVE BEEN very knowledgable and helpful and we both appreciate it alot
yeah, I took apart most part of the car. hmm yeah. and I repair engines and ECU myself. yeah, ok I don't understand anything, I really really don't now a thing. OH MY GOD !
my answer : Why would I wanna spoon feed ur sorry ***?
oh yeah, that's my answer. You can't even Google and need rxsolider to do it for you. so yeah go f urself already ? 
Last edited by nycgps; 09-10-2011 at 03:23 PM.
09-12-2011, 08:48 PM
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ROFL, I don't understand, hmm ok.
yeah, I took apart most part of the car. hmm yeah. and I repair engines and ECU myself. yeah, ok I don't understand anything, I really really don't now a thing. OH MY GOD !
my answer : Why would I wanna spoon feed ur sorry ***? oh yeah, that's my answer. You can't even Google and need rxsolider to do it for you. so yeah go f urself already ?
yeah, I took apart most part of the car. hmm yeah. and I repair engines and ECU myself. yeah, ok I don't understand anything, I really really don't now a thing. OH MY GOD !
my answer : Why would I wanna spoon feed ur sorry ***?
oh yeah, that's my answer. You can't even Google and need rxsolider to do it for you. so yeah go f urself already ? My gf is new to forums and takes things a bit personally, especially when she paid 10k for a car and now it's not running right so I apologize for her...
We DO know what running rich is obviously... I am like you with 300zx's, I have a twin turbo and know just about everything there is to know about them. However I am NOT as familliar with rotary engines and obd2...
I am just a bit confused because the FSM says "running rich" but the code readers say "bank 1 sensor 2 malfunction"
I am confused as to if it's ACTUALLY running rich or is it just a bad 02 sensor like the code readers say?
If you have 16k posts and know so much about these cars maybe you could help me understand.....
And I have searched quite a bit on this forum about it. But frankly there are not alot of threads about it and the ones I did find were not that much help.
Some say the 02 sensor fixed it, other say a new 02 did not fix it.
the manual says "fuel system" and everywhere else says "02 sensor"..........
FYI: there are only 6 threads with "p2097" in the title and 2 of them are mine.....
Last edited by supermario680; 09-12-2011 at 08:51 PM.
09-12-2011, 09:16 PM
#12
The service manual is a good place to start since it'll tell you the possible (not limited to) causes!
Then its good to use this forum to narrow down the more likely suspects from others who have also experienced this code.
Just keep in mind what worked for one person doesn't mean it'll work for you, since the list of possibilities vary.
Take what you learn from the FSM and what you've read on the forum and start eliminating possibilities.
If you have another RX8 local to you (check the regional threads), ask if they could help and even swap parts (like the FO2S) since its no guarantee a new one will fix this.
Then its good to use this forum to narrow down the more likely suspects from others who have also experienced this code.
Just keep in mind what worked for one person doesn't mean it'll work for you, since the list of possibilities vary.
Take what you learn from the FSM and what you've read on the forum and start eliminating possibilities.
If you have another RX8 local to you (check the regional threads), ask if they could help and even swap parts (like the FO2S) since its no guarantee a new one will fix this.
09-12-2011, 09:24 PM
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The service manual is a good place to start since it'll tell you the possible (not limited to) causes!
Attachment 176928
Then its good to use this forum to narrow down the more likely suspects from others who have also experienced this code.
Just keep in mind what worked for one person doesn't mean it'll work for you, since the list of possibilities vary.
Take what you learn from the FSM and what you've read on the forum and start eliminating possibilities.
If you have another RX8 local to you (check the regional threads), ask if they could help and even swap parts (like the FO2S) since its no guarantee a new one will fix this.
Attachment 176928
Then its good to use this forum to narrow down the more likely suspects from others who have also experienced this code.
Just keep in mind what worked for one person doesn't mean it'll work for you, since the list of possibilities vary.
Take what you learn from the FSM and what you've read on the forum and start eliminating possibilities.
If you have another RX8 local to you (check the regional threads), ask if they could help and even swap parts (like the FO2S) since its no guarantee a new one will fix this.
I'm trying to get a hold of a 8 enthusiast but he's out of town right now and IDK how much he can help anyways..
But I guess, thanks.
09-12-2011, 10:00 PM
#14
You're right that some can't be "bench tested" easily, that is why it would help having another RX8 local that you could swap parts with... like the O2 sensors.
But you can check for exhaust leaks and test the purge solenoid.
The ECT (engine coolant temp) might be easy to identify using the car's gauge on the instrument clutster.
If the temp gauge never moves to center or jumps all the way to the right, then there might be a fault with the sensor.
Not likely your problem... just giving you the idea on how to look at each item.
The IAT (intake air temp) is part of the MAF assembly and is the brown tear-drop looking component when you pull the MAF housing out.
You can clean it with MAF cleaner just to rule that out or swap that housing with a willing local RX8.
Some of us have our own compression testers, but most will have to go the dealer route.
Its a long list of possibilities, but you need to check each one off to know for sure.
But you can check for exhaust leaks and test the purge solenoid.
The ECT (engine coolant temp) might be easy to identify using the car's gauge on the instrument clutster.
If the temp gauge never moves to center or jumps all the way to the right, then there might be a fault with the sensor.
Not likely your problem... just giving you the idea on how to look at each item.
The IAT (intake air temp) is part of the MAF assembly and is the brown tear-drop looking component when you pull the MAF housing out.
You can clean it with MAF cleaner just to rule that out or swap that housing with a willing local RX8.
Some of us have our own compression testers, but most will have to go the dealer route.
Its a long list of possibilities, but you need to check each one off to know for sure.
Last edited by Jon316G; 09-12-2011 at 10:17 PM.
09-12-2011, 11:01 PM
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You're right that some can't be "bench tested" easily, that is why it would help having another RX8 local that you could swap parts with... like the O2 sensors.
But you can check for exhaust leaks and test the purge solenoid.
The ECT (engine coolant temp) might be easy to identify using the car's gauge on the instrument clutster.
If the temp gauge never moves to center or jumps all the way to the right, then there might be a fault with the sensor.
Not likely your problem... just giving you the idea on how to look at each item.
The IAT (intake air temp) is part of the MAF assembly and is the brown tear-drop looking component when you pull the MAF housing out.
You can clean it with MAF cleaner just to rule that out or swap that housing with a willing local RX8.
Some of us have our own compression testers, but most will have to go the dealer route.
Its a long list of possibilities, but you need to check each one off to know for sure.
But you can check for exhaust leaks and test the purge solenoid.
The ECT (engine coolant temp) might be easy to identify using the car's gauge on the instrument clutster.
If the temp gauge never moves to center or jumps all the way to the right, then there might be a fault with the sensor.
Not likely your problem... just giving you the idea on how to look at each item.
The IAT (intake air temp) is part of the MAF assembly and is the brown tear-drop looking component when you pull the MAF housing out.
You can clean it with MAF cleaner just to rule that out or swap that housing with a willing local RX8.
Some of us have our own compression testers, but most will have to go the dealer route.
Its a long list of possibilities, but you need to check each one off to know for sure.
But I'm new to how different rotarys are! so thanks!
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