Water/Meth Injection for NA?
01-08-2010, 09:41 AM
#1
SARX Legend
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
Water/Meth Injection for NA?
Yes I have read the old threads and there is some info there but most is for FI applications and the banter about it on NA cars is from 2005 so...............
I know olddragger (supercharged) uses it, recommends it, but what does everyone else think about it on a NA application? I am thinking of it more as a reliability/carbon cleaning solution rather than making HP with it. Thanks.
I know olddragger (supercharged) uses it, recommends it, but what does everyone else think about it on a NA application? I am thinking of it more as a reliability/carbon cleaning solution rather than making HP with it. Thanks.
01-08-2010, 09:47 AM
#2
Very expensive way to get your carbon cleaned out 
Really very little benefit to an NA motor.....if you have tuned the motor to the edge....it could help prevent pinging and give you some charge cooling...but with a totally stock engine it will make it run even richer...and likely perform worse
PS: Get a FI system
You like playing around way too much to stay NA
Ask me how I know
Really very little benefit to an NA motor.....if you have tuned the motor to the edge....it could help prevent pinging and give you some charge cooling...but with a totally stock engine it will make it run even richer...and likely perform worse
PS: Get a FI system
You like playing around way too much to stay NA Ask me how I know
01-08-2010, 12:47 PM
#4
like to add my thoughts:
w/m system on a na car would have benefits but people may not be willing to pay the price for them.
Agree with dan that it is almost a requirement to boost this engine.
But benefits on a na engine imho would be
1- it will keep the engine clean----period. You can just use water without methenol if you wanted. Sparkplugs will look totally different when you pull them.
2- guarantee octane---with more e 85 being added to gas --who knows what is the "real octane" we get at the station?
3- cool the intake charge temps---engine heat soaks BIG time. No way of properly cooling the LIM--no way. This MAY result in a little more power--i dont know if anyone has ever tried this.
I do know that the gas in the engines fuel injector rails is getting close to 190F by the time it reaches the injectors.
The w/m system doesnt inject ALL the time --unless you want it too. You can set it to activate anytime you wish--mine is maf voltage driven. It is progressive not just on and off.
I have not heard of anyone having any detonation events when the w/m system was activated?
If you are a car nut and plan on keeping it and driving it the way it was designed for--then get it. if you are a DD transporting kids and going to the mall trips only---dont bother.
OD
w/m system on a na car would have benefits but people may not be willing to pay the price for them.
Agree with dan that it is almost a requirement to boost this engine.
But benefits on a na engine imho would be
1- it will keep the engine clean----period. You can just use water without methenol if you wanted. Sparkplugs will look totally different when you pull them.
2- guarantee octane---with more e 85 being added to gas --who knows what is the "real octane" we get at the station?
3- cool the intake charge temps---engine heat soaks BIG time. No way of properly cooling the LIM--no way. This MAY result in a little more power--i dont know if anyone has ever tried this.
I do know that the gas in the engines fuel injector rails is getting close to 190F by the time it reaches the injectors.
The w/m system doesnt inject ALL the time --unless you want it too. You can set it to activate anytime you wish--mine is maf voltage driven. It is progressive not just on and off.
I have not heard of anyone having any detonation events when the w/m system was activated?
If you are a car nut and plan on keeping it and driving it the way it was designed for--then get it. if you are a DD transporting kids and going to the mall trips only---dont bother.
OD
01-08-2010, 02:33 PM
#6
Super Moderator
Denny, Knows I have been thinking of it, purely as a Carbon Cleaner...Ongoing..
Not just a once yearly Dump of water.
Steam IMO is the best way of carbon removal.
The seafoam methods etc..are good, but I personally believe they do more lubricating than cleaning.
I would really like to see a naked engine just after the Seafoam treatment, and just how much is removed.
As re-builders know Carbon on Rotors are as hard as diamonds (well almost) and a Fast Wire Buff is needed to remove it....I just can't see Seafoam being that efficient.
Not just a once yearly Dump of water.
Steam IMO is the best way of carbon removal.
The seafoam methods etc..are good, but I personally believe they do more lubricating than cleaning.
I would really like to see a naked engine just after the Seafoam treatment, and just how much is removed.
As re-builders know Carbon on Rotors are as hard as diamonds (well almost) and a Fast Wire Buff is needed to remove it....I just can't see Seafoam being that efficient.
01-08-2010, 09:59 PM
#7
its not and neither is any chemical. i experimented with all of the ones i know off when i had a rotor that had carbon on it. nothing removed the hard carbon or even soften it. Now maybe some of the small stuff around the seal area may have been affected--but nothing else.
i even let it soak overnight in the stuff.
best to prevent it?
it really is a guessing game.
Now would it be worth the cost (system are not cheap)? Cant answer that. If i had just a DD that i didnt track or boost--it would be a real "i dont know" I think i had rather get the oil pressure and temperatures under control 1st
OD
i even let it soak overnight in the stuff.
best to prevent it?
it really is a guessing game.
Now would it be worth the cost (system are not cheap)? Cant answer that. If i had just a DD that i didnt track or boost--it would be a real "i dont know" I think i had rather get the oil pressure and temperatures under control 1st
OD
01-08-2010, 10:43 PM
#9
DevilsOwn
Cooling Mist
Aqua Stealth
Alcohol Injection Systems
Speaking of the latter; NA kit:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...c25/index.html
Cooling Mist
Aqua Stealth
Alcohol Injection Systems
Speaking of the latter; NA kit:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...c25/index.html
01-08-2010, 10:53 PM
#10
01-09-2010, 02:42 AM
#11
Registered
I guess rusty rotors would be as bad as carbon.
01-09-2010, 02:47 AM
#12
Registered
Agreed, total PITA running my lines, I went with braided stainless so I could run straight methanol (or methanol/nitromethane) if I wanted to.
It would be interesting to see 60/40 nitromethane/methanol in a N/A car, the nitro does provide extra O2, but not as much as NO2.
I hope you have many spare spark plugs if you try it.
/I wonder if NO2 cleans plugs....
01-09-2010, 07:53 AM
#14
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one company make the best of the best AQUAMIST
i use to run it in my old vr6 turbo (aquamist 2d) and it is a ell of a system, i am an aircraft mechanic and knows the benefits of this system, younger we use to have those system(aquamist ) in some radial engines!
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html
best choice if you want to go W/M.. safest system on the market too but very expensive can run in the 2000$ ranges
i use to run it in my old vr6 turbo (aquamist 2d) and it is a ell of a system, i am an aircraft mechanic and knows the benefits of this system, younger we use to have those system(aquamist ) in some radial engines!
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html
best choice if you want to go W/M.. safest system on the market too but very expensive can run in the 2000$ ranges
01-12-2010, 03:56 PM
#18
01-12-2010, 09:20 PM
#19
Mine lasts for a few months sometimes...depends on the weather....I only drive my car on nice days
Mine is set to come on at 2 or 3 psi I think then full spray at 8 or 9 psi. So it's not like I am constantly in boost so it lasts a while. If I were to track it, then it would go quick I'm sure. Also it depends on the size of the jet you use at the injection point. My kit came with 3 sizes....I'm using the smallest.
So for NA, I'm assuming it runs off MAF voltage or something, since it won't see positive manifold pressure. So the kits made by AEM probably won't work for NA since the progressive controller reads boost pressure. Snow Performance offers an NA kit too like Alcohol Injection Systems.
Mine is set to come on at 2 or 3 psi I think then full spray at 8 or 9 psi. So it's not like I am constantly in boost so it lasts a while. If I were to track it, then it would go quick I'm sure. Also it depends on the size of the jet you use at the injection point. My kit came with 3 sizes....I'm using the smallest.
So for NA, I'm assuming it runs off MAF voltage or something, since it won't see positive manifold pressure. So the kits made by AEM probably won't work for NA since the progressive controller reads boost pressure. Snow Performance offers an NA kit too like Alcohol Injection Systems.
01-12-2010, 11:06 PM
#21
Registered
I have the Snow stage 2 kit.
60 ml pre-blower and 100 ml post blower.
I have a 2.5 gallon reservoir in my trunk, I am not currently running with methanol enabled as my car is running very cool (and it's cold outside), no need to try sub zero intake temps.
In summer, I was burning through a gallon a week of 50/50 water methanol here in Florida on my daily driver. When running methanol/nitromethane, I was burning less, about a gallon every two weeks.
PS: Ice forming on the intake in 105 degree weather is awesome.
60 ml pre-blower and 100 ml post blower.
I have a 2.5 gallon reservoir in my trunk, I am not currently running with methanol enabled as my car is running very cool (and it's cold outside), no need to try sub zero intake temps.
In summer, I was burning through a gallon a week of 50/50 water methanol here in Florida on my daily driver. When running methanol/nitromethane, I was burning less, about a gallon every two weeks.
PS: Ice forming on the intake in 105 degree weather is awesome.
01-13-2010, 01:00 AM
#22
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E 85 is not added to gas, it is 85% ethanol and 15% gas.Guys with motor homes and trucks have been using W/M injection for years to prevent pinging using a micro switch or vacuum switch that can be adjusted to the users requirements ie: part throttle , under load.Not everything is Hi-tech.
Question. Why use Nitromethane,is it a "wow" factor.Like man,Im so tough I run methanol nitromethane injection..Just hope it never ignites in your trunk.
Question. Why use Nitromethane,is it a "wow" factor.Like man,Im so tough I run methanol nitromethane injection..Just hope it never ignites in your trunk.
