Dragonrider

Aside from the so called dyno number and the debate over the issue of torque and HP, in practical operation and observation I have witnessed 8s supposedly with low torque, sit and burn rubber to white smoke out of the tires. Torque out from a standing start twisting to the left, and so on and so on.

There are some into number crunching so bad that they will argue that the numbers prove that bees cannot fly (Professional Scientists to be exact). It is a scientific impossibility. Well what ever the bees are doing, it is sure a good imitation of flying.

If one wants to set up an 8 for drag racing, it can be done. I saw on a post of an 8 set for pro drag racing that does the mid 7's in the 1/4 with a 2 rotor engine making 900hp to the wheels. I dare say this 8 would not do so well on the mountain road course.

So since the numbers say that the RX8 is under powered and low on torque, like the bee, I suppose those who are able to burn out and torque sideways from a standing start are just imitating high torque and horsepower like the bee imitates flying.

Maybe just maybe attempting to compare a rotary no-piston engine to a piston engine using the testing tools of the piston engine world is leading everyone to believe the RX8 is scientifically a bee that cannot really fly.

So as we leave those who believe the dyno numbers behind, just tell them that scientifically we did not beat them to the finish line, or out climb them over the mountain pass, or out handle them on the corners. All according to the numbers of course we really did not do all of that.

ZOOM-ZOOM :D

zoom44

i wasnt the one that brought the F body into this discussion and we are stayign on topic by showing how gearign multiplies(or divides-overdrive) torque. i did not bother with tire size in these equations.

2001 firebird formula 4at
gear *final = overall gearing*T at peek= total T
3.06 2.73 8.3538 340 2840.292
1.75 2.73 4.7775 340 1624.35
1 2.73 2.73 340 928.2
0.7 2.73 1.911 340 649.74

2004 RX-8 6mt
gear *final = overall gearing*T at peek= total T
3.76 4.44 16.6944 159 2654.4096
2.269 4.44 10.07436 159 1601.82324
1.645 4.44 7.3038 159 1161.3042
1.187 4.44 5.27028 159 837.97452
1 4.44 4.44 159 705.96
0.843 4.44 3.74292 159 595.12428

look how the advantage of the Torque Monster is eaten away by its gearing.
1st gear the Formula has about 200 more T but by second gear the advantage has already dropped to only 20T. #rd gear the RX-8 is clearly the new T leader and 4th still has the 8 ahead by about 200T.

while priscilla was talking about the Torque converter really it looks like the Formula could use a better final drive ratio. the only place it really beats the 8 in power to the ground is first gear. clearly th RX-8 is better at using the Torque it has. Its not even geared for max acceleration. Mazda geared it more towards economy. different first and 2nd gears would make this easily a 5.5 to 60 car. of course gas mileage would be hurt

priscilla ls1

No dduuu First gear is the most important gear there is! And that is what I was talking about. in an automatic RX-8 A TC will help with that first gear. That is why the Formula has it all over the RX-8 in a 1/4, The Formula will never even get to 3 gear before the 1/4 is done so why worry about that?

zoom44

dude in an mt i can launch at 6k if i want. i can rev to and launch from any rpm i want. if you didnt understand what said above let me make it clear. the formula has way more T at the engine but its gearing leaves a bit to be desired when it gets to the ground. or even shorter

the RX-8 is better at using its T then the Formula is.

zoom44

if we put on a turbo like greddy and we increase the Torque to 200 look at the power to the wheels of the RX-8
200 3338.88
200 2014.872
200 1460.76
200 1054.056
200 888
200 748.584

so that "weak" 200 Tcar is beating the 340 T car even without taking in to account the 500lbs less the RX-8 weighs.

Sigma

And you're forgetting one more thing...

The Formula has 8% more Torque in 1st but 13% more weight than the RX-8 -- whatever gain is nullified by the weight.

priscilla ls1

Dude,, Why would u want to launch at 6k Your peak Tq is at 5500, Here is the gearing I got.
1st 2.66:1
2nd 1.78:1
3rd 1.30:1
4th 1:1
5th 0.74:1
6th 0.50:1

I was just saying that for a stock car u are going to have a greater launch on a car with more Tq. not talking about in the long run and in later gears. So u might have just got confused. But it is cool, We are still talking about the 1/4 right, or are we talking about like autocross? I mean like I said before the formula only needs to get up to 4000 rpms to hit that 350Tq not bad for a hard launch :D now just need some slicks for a real neck snapping 60ft.




We are not talking about bolt on power, we are talking about stock for stock.

zoom44

im sorry u talked about bolting on a stall converter for better launch. im an MT and "way down on T" compared to the Firebird. but as i showed you with only 200 T this RX-8 will be putting more power to the wheels than the 340 T car because of gearing.

now what was that gearing you posted?

and i just tried to explain to you that it has much to do with gearing and i havent even gotten into weight yet.

if we put the renesis and gear and rear in a Miata weight body we'd have a car whose T was very small compared to yours but would out drag yours.

oh and and im going to launch at 6(or higher maybe 7500) so i am higher im my powerband because hp = T* rpm/5252

priscilla ls1

ohh come on the formula is only like 480lbs heavier then the RX-8 and I only weigh 108 so u know that weight is not going to be a factor. and in a 1/4 sometimes weight does help in a shorter distance, like with sticking to the ground.

The gearing I posted was for a MT on a formula. Unless I was getting off topic?


I don't care what u launch at I was just giving u some advice, but what do I know I am just a girl.

U keep going off the topic and now u are talking about putting a renesis, gears and rear gearing, in a miata? Dude u are one strange person to have a conversation with, if u are going that far. Like hell if I am going to lose to a miata. If u have the money to do this then sure I will meet u at the drag strip and we will see what u got.

guy321

You are a girl? Hell, I could barely tell you were human from the way you type.

priscilla ls1

What's wrong with the way I type?

guy321

Nothing is wrong with this sentance. Thanks for the improvement.

Glyphon

he didn't say he was putting the engine/tranny/rear in a miata...he said in a miata weight body. worded kinda wonky, but meaning an rx8(?) body that had a weight reduction so that it weighed the same as a miata.

so you wouldn't be loosing to miata, you'd be loosing to a slimmed down rx8

Sigma

Only 480 Lbs? Only?

That's HUGE. Absolutely HUGE. Carmakers go through trouble shaving ounces off a cars weight, let alone five hundred pounds.

If you weigh 15% more than an RX-8 you need 15% more torque to get the same effect.

6MT Firebird has a 2.66:1 Gear Ratio and a 3.42 Final Drive with 340ft/lb of Torque, giving it a total force of 3093 ft/lb of torque in first gear.

6MT RX-8 has a 3.76:1 Gear Ratio and a 4.44 Final Drive with 150ft/lb of Torque, giving it a total force of 2504 ft/lb of torque in first gear.

600ft/lb looks like a lot -- it's almost 20% more power. And it would be HUGE if the Formula wasn't burdened with "only" 15% more weight. That sucks away almost the entire gain right there. 20% more power ain't worth nearly as much when you're pulling 15% more weight.

If torque was so important and weight wasn't that big of a deal, that 3.8L Buick I got as a loaner the other day would kick an RX-8s *** on the track. That bad boy did 280 ft/lb of torque at like 2500RPM. Talk about power down low. But it'd be doing good to pull an 8-second 0-60 time and wasn't that much faster than my buddy's 110hp MTX Honda Civic. And my Mazda3s with only 150ft/lb of torque (and an ATX too) whooped its' ***. Yeah, I like to have fun with my rentals.

And weight isn't that important even in drag-racing. It's why drag racers strip their cars of every possible thing. And why NHRA Pro Drags weigh virtually nothing. Unless we're talking about cars weighing under 1000lbs, added weight is a killer. Ask how many LS1 guys would give their left nuts to drop 500lbs off their cars.

zoom44

ok ill work that up later on the MT gearing. but then you wont have the stall converter that you brought into the equation

im not going off topic the topic o fthe original poster was this

and i am still explaining how gearing effects your T and how the weight it is moving is important. i just showed you how a 200 T RX-8 would beat the 340 T Formula. By bringing weight into the picture i am show how power to weight ration is a better measure than just T . think about a motorcyle. say a Kawasaki Ninja. it has much less Hp an T than the Formula but it will still kill it in the 1/4

Horsepower: 161.9 @ 11,750 rpm
Torque: 80.0 ft.-lb. @ 9750 rpm
Corrected 1/4-mile: 10.06 sec. @ 145.3 mph
0-60 mph: 2.92 sec.

So do you think weight has something to do with it?

If i used the RX=8 driveline in amuch smaller and lighter weight car would you believe it would be faster?

can you see that i am still on topic and the point is that knowing the Peak Torque alone doesnt tell you anything about how the vehicle will perform in the1/4 mile?

priscilla ls1

oh no u are not off topic u are way off topic, I mean now u are bringing in a ninja to race my formula? come on u know that is not even fair. I mean motorcycles depend mostly on there weight and airow dynamics to win races and u are comparing a bike to my car? look I do not want to turn this into another domestic Vs. import discussion, I have seen to many of thoughs. I was saying that in a 1/4 Tq does matter on a car, A stock car Like a RX-8 because if u did not know that was the car we are talking about! Not a motorcycle not a RX-8 with a miata body weight and not a funny car. JUST A STOCK RX-8 NOTHING MORE! So quit bringing in other cars I mean is it that hard I am trying to help this guy in his RX-8 and understanding his stock Tq not A bike and not his car with a turbo kit. U can see in all the post I have put out that I never once put a mod on my formula or a lower weight body or a turbo, Nothing. Just stock for stock understanding Tq. that is it.



How about I give u 2?

zoom44

no his conversation was howmuch torque matters. and im trying to explain that torque alone doesnt matter at all. the examples i am giving are in support of that point.

since these apparently confuse you here is another example

Horsepower 305 to 370@ 2100 rpm
Torque 1050-1350 lb-ft @ 1200 rpm

do you think that vehicle will beat you off the line in the 1/4? look at all of tha Torque.

rotarygod

Since torque is a measure of force and horsepower is a measure of work, torque does nothing to accelerate a car. More torque at any spot is also more horsepower at the same spot so it is the horsepower doing the work not the torque.

Let's not argue about how a certain car with X amount of torque and gearing can potentially beat another car with Y gearing. That isn't the thread topic anyways. We all know that gearing can only go so far based on the amount of power it is converting.

Please lets not make any personal attacks either.

Sigma

Wonder what it says about me that I know exactly what those specs belong to off the top of my head.

zoom44

the question between the OP and his freind was how much Torque matters. it is the topic i am discussing

sigma go ahead and guess id like to see that

Sigma

Those are the specs of a Cat C-11. Couldn't guess the specific vehicle, it's used by dozens of manufacturers and would be impossible to read your mind as to which you looked up. But, if I had to wager a guess, you were pulling them from a Kenworth tractor.

zoom44

haha got it!! no vehicle iwas pulling them right from cat with no particular rig in mind

http://www.cattruckengines.com/OHE/A...ameset_c11.htm

Cylinders In-Line 6
Bore/Stroke 5.12 x 5.51 (130mm x 140mm)
Displacement 11.1 L (677 cu in)
Weight 2270 lb (1030 kg)
Horsepower 305 to 370@ 2100 rpm
Torque 1050-1350 lb-ft @ 1200 rpm

priscilla ls1

Smartest thing I have heard all day :D

I love these little arguments.


Yes u understand, we are just talking about Tq here and why it matters and u seem to think that it does nothing to help. without Tq u have no feet like a horse with all strength but no legs to exert that force. And so without Tq u have no ground.

zoom44

but it help proves the point Sigma- just knowing the T doesnt tell you anything. T alone doesnt matter

zoom44

and guesswhat? the horse legs are the GEARS not the FORCE! you just made my point- Torque is nothing without the means to apply it.

gears work as levers. 1 pound on a lever 1 foot from a fulcrum. now put one pound 10 ft from the fulcrum. thats what gearing does.

the amount of power to the ground depends solely on the gearing. how fast that power can accelerate the vehicle depends on how much the car weighs.

so knowing the Torque of a vehicle doesnt matter if you dont know the gearing and weight.