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Pre-mix in the RX-8 may not be a good idea

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Pre-mix in the RX-8 may not be a good idea

Old 10-24-2006, 07:32 PM
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Pre-mix in the RX-8 may not be a good idea

I was just thinking about the benefits of premixing oil the other day when this hit me. The Rx-8 saddle tank might only allow the the premix oil to mix with half the gas. The end result would be running half a tank with no or to little oil.

I took a quick look at the fuel tank diagram and it show the fuel filler line going into the drivers side of the fuel tank. That means that the only chance the oil has to mix with the fuel that eventually spills over and fills the passenger side is as the tank is being filled. In a regular gas tank the oil will mix as the car is driven and the gas splashes around, This can not happen with the saddle tank.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:50 PM
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That is correct. I add premix when I fill-up.

Should be (pre!)mixed nicely.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:53 PM
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just dump it in before filling up.
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:09 PM
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meh premix. I just put gas in mine and it runs damn fine, like 99% of the other rx-8 owners.
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:26 AM
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Were are using so little oil, I dont think this is an issue. Not like a dirt-bike that runs 34-1 which would require mixing in a seperate container before dumping into the tank.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:32 AM
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Thats why u dump the premix in before fill up ?
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:32 AM
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Wink Thanks for the input.....

So, you shouldn't pre-mix because half the tank might not get any oil ?

Ergo you should modify your pre-mixing method, right?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

S

Last edited by StealthTL; 10-25-2006 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:25 AM
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I haven't heard much to alter my initial thought. Even if you dump the oil in before filling you are in all probability going to get a different mix ratio in each side of the saddle tank. Weather that mixture in one side is too diluted to properly protect the engine is the question. I do feel it is enough of a concern to negate the advantages of using a premix.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:31 AM
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if you don't want to, don't do it. Most of us still have the OEM MOP installed and active, so this is just added protection should Mazda suddenly find that issues remain with seals and oil delivery inconsistant.

4oz is such a tiny amount in 15 gallon fillups that it could not cause damage even if you had all your oil going into one side of the tank - ignoring the fact that we would not be filling up from an empty car, but one that stil has 1-2 gallons in the bottom.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:44 AM
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There is an active transfer from one side of the tank to the other that will mix the fuel.......this is not a problem that will be borne out in reality.....as long as you add the oil before the gas when you fill up
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:36 AM
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Two questions.

Has there been any considerable evidence that premixing will keep the exhaust tips clean? (this came up in another thread)

Also, anyone do this in New Jersey, where attendants are legally required to pump the gas for you?
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:44 AM
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Post Logic....

Rudimentary logic would dictate that adding more oil to an oil burning system should not give LESS soot at the tips.

Empirical evidence would indicate that the only verifiable result of pre-mixing is a subtle warm and fuzzy feeling produced in the owner.

S
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:37 PM
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Before premixing, my exhaust tips would be covered in a black thick film between weekly washes.

After premixing, the tips still get dirty, but the film is much lighter in color and thickness. It is quite mild and not at all black like it used to be. It's a very light tan color, and you can see through it - so it still shines.

So to answer your question: Yes, premixing for me has removed dirty exhaust tips.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mysql101
if you don't want to, don't do it. Most of us still have the OEM MOP installed and active, so this is just added protection should Mazda suddenly find that issues remain with seals and oil delivery inconsistant.

4oz is such a tiny amount in 15 gallon fillups that it could not cause damage even if you had all your oil going into one side of the tank - ignoring the fact that we would not be filling up from an empty car, but one that stil has 1-2 gallons in the bottom.
I was under the assumption that the MOP would be disabled when using premix. If you don't disable the MOP what's the point?
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dannobre
There is an active transfer from one side of the tank to the other that will mix the fuel.......this is not a problem that will be borne out in reality.....as long as you add the oil before the gas when you fill up
It is my understanding that the transfer only happens once one side is empty, then the other side is pumped into it. If this is correct then you could still have a problem.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Raptor75
I was under the assumption that the MOP would be disabled when using premix. If you don't disable the MOP what's the point?
It's insurance. Your car will still get oil even if your MOP fails, or if the required amount of oil being metered is incorrect.

It would likely be even better to get rid of the MOP completely since 2 stroke oil is nicer than the used engine oil, but this is a simple thing to do and the engine does seem to function better.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:40 PM
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Scenario.....

It is my understanding that the transfer only happens once one side is empty, then the other side is pumped into it.

Another interesting theory, mugged by a vicious gang of facts!

How would the timing of that work?

How would the level sender work?

How would you keep the two "tanks" apart, when there is not even a baffle between them?

Etc..

S

Last edited by StealthTL; 10-25-2006 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:43 PM
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Not sure what you're getting at, Stealth.

If you're saying premix doesn't work, there's a lot of rx-7 guys who'd disagree.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:57 PM
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Not me......

I never suggested pre-mix wasn't a good idea - used it myself since Day1/Tank1!

Just trying to refute the theory that it won't mix in a saddle shaped tank, it will.

I use 200ml of ISO-GD two-stroke, 200mls of UCL, 100mls of fuel grade IPA, and a lubricity additive. This mix may be overkill...... but my housings will be nice and shiny for a LONG time!

I always said the MOP on the RX-8 is cut back too far, to please the "average" owner.

Usually put five gallons in, then add the mix and top off.

S
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:17 PM
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oh, okay.

I thought when you said this:

Another interesting theory, mugged by a vicious gang of facts!

How would the timing of that work?
You were talking about premixing, and how the oil would be metered into the engine properly.
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Old 10-25-2006, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by StealthTL
I use 200ml of ISO-GD two-stroke, 200mls of UCL, 100mls of fuel grade IPA, and a lubricity additive. This mix may be overkill...... but my housings will be nice and shiny for a LONG time!
S
Isn't 2-stoke oil and UCL essentially the same thing?

Your brew sounds almost exactly like FP60. Wouldnt' it just be easier to run FP60?
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Old 10-25-2006, 06:33 PM
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I could be wrong. It was relayed to me that once the one saddle tank empties at the half way mark the other side is pumped completely into the now emptied tank. Based on the behavior of the gas gauge this would make some sense and the tank diagrams indicate that it could function in this manor.

Do you know for a fact how the gas tank works?

If you do and I am incorrect I would like to learn how it really dose work. You have provided no fact only technical issues which any competent engineer could easily resolve. If you don't know for a fact how the tank works then there is a very good chance that your safety net has holes.

Originally Posted by StealthTL
It is my understanding that the transfer only happens once one side is empty, then the other side is pumped into it.

Another interesting theory, mugged by a vicious gang of facts!

How would the timing of that work?

How would the level sender work?

How would you keep the two "tanks" apart, when there is not even a baffle between them?

Etc..

S
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Old 10-25-2006, 06:55 PM
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from the drawings it looks like the fuel pump suction is used to siphon the fuel from the one side to the other
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:02 PM
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Something strange happens with the fuel tank.
This is from the online service manual:

(quote)
When the fuel gauge indicates 3/4 or more, the fuel level is higher than the installation surface of the fuel pump and the fuel suction pipe bracket. Due to this condition, fuel may spill or leak out when performing this procedure. Before performing this procedure, always drain out fuel so that the fuel tank is half full or less (according to the fuel gauge needle).

(1) Disconnect the quick release connector (engine compartment side). (See QUICK RELEASE CONNECTOR REMOVAL/INSTALLATION.)

(2) Attach a long hose to the disconnected fuel pipe and drain the fuel into a proper receptacle.
(3) Ground check connector terminal F/P to the body using a jumper wire.

Caution

Shorting the wrong terminal of the check connector may cause malfunctions. Make sure to short only the specified terminal.

(4) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and operate the fuel pump for approx. 20 min.

Caution

The fuel pump may malfunction if it is operated without any fuel in the fuel tank (fuel pump idling). Constantly monitor the amount of fuel being discharged and immediately stop operation of the pump when essentially no fuel is being discharged.

(5) When essentially no fuel is being discharged from the hose, turn the ignition switch to the LOCK position.

Note

When operating the fuel pump with a full fuel tank, fuel discharge will become erratic after approx. 10 min but will continue for approx. 10 min more and then essentially no fuel will be discharged. At this time the fuel gauge needle will be at the halfway position.
(/quote)

That would indicate to me that the fuel tank either relies on sloshing to distribute fuel (my motorcycle does this), or there is some sort of special pickup or hose that distributes the fuel. This would also explain why the fuel gauge tends to be a bit imprecise.
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Old 10-25-2006, 07:08 PM
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the service manual shows a tube in the one diagram (but the picture seems to be a bit wacky as the tube is shown going through the fuel pump but the fuel pump only has 1 fitting)... hence i'm guessing the tube goes near the fuel pump suction line and siphons the other side of the tank
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