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One or two anti return valve? thats the question..
Q. What is an anti-return valve?
"Filters mounted such that oil tends to drain from them usually incorporate an anti-drainback valve to hold oil in the filter after the engine (or other lubrication system) is shut down.
This is done to avoid a delay in oil pressure buildup once the system is restarted; without an anti-drainback valve, pressurized oil would have to fill the filter before traveling onward to the engine's working parts. This situation can cause premature wear of moving parts due to initial lack of oil."
wiki/Oil_filter
All oil filters have oneanti-drain /return valve in the form of a flexible membrane made of Silicone or Nitrile on the dirty side/entrance.
Q. What is a double anti-return valve?
When there is one on the dirty side and another on the clean side.
Considering the oil filter position on S1, a double anti-drain valve is a brilliant idea not only for keeping lubrication at optimal,
even for changing the oil filter, it would drip less oil over the engine.
Why we never advised using a double drain valve? JDM doesn't like them and looks at them as over-engineering.
I mean. Is startup bearing wear a problem that needs solving? Most engines especially Renesises, will die of other causes before startup wear catches up to them.
........... incorporate an anti-drainback valve to hold oil in the filter after the engine (or other lubrication system) is shut down.
That's a common assumption in auto circles -
That little rubber flap is the ONLY thing preventing the WHOLE oiling system from emptying back into the sump.
An oil pump full of air is bad news at startup.
That little rubber flap is the ONLY thing preventing the WHOLE oiling system from emptying back into the sump.
An oil pump full of air is bad news at startup.
No, it is not the ONLY thing.
It is the only thing on the dirty side and in one return valve type.
On the double return valve type, there is another valve on the clean side too.
On RX8 the oil filter would drain itself rather to oil galerie/s if doesn't have a double anti return valve. Over that "rubber flap" it would drain back to oil cooler lines.
I mean. Is startup bearing wear a problem that needs solving? Most engines especially Renesises, will die of other causes before startup wear catches up to them.
Yes, it does. it is the biggest problem since the dawn of internal combustion engine history. According to academic literature, up to 50% of wear is on startup.
Other causes are a byproduct of lubrication failure.
What I mean is, is it a problem not already solved by the current single-valve filters. I don't see reports of RX8 or other engines routinely dying of bearing failure since the 1970s.
Sure 2 valves is obviously better than 1 unless of course 1 does the job fine and a 2nd one is extra cost for no additional benefit.
What I mean is, is it a problem not already solved by the current single-valve filters. I don't see reports of RX8 or other engines routinely dying of bearing failure since the 1970s.
.
I don't know what to say.
The aforementioned information was crystal clear.
What is a law of physics is the law. There is no IMO nor argument. There are few hefty +300 pages books about lubrication, I highly recommend them.
There is no shortcut on learning especially for google search genration.
Don't assume that because someone contradicts you, that they aren't educated in the subject matter. The theory is fine, but in the real world the simple single valve filters are doing just fine. Cars are not losing bearings at scale, and especially with rotaries, startup wear is far from the biggest problem.
Look in the used oil analysis thread, you don't see bearing metals in the oil at every oil change.
aren’t you the guy who posted “I don’t care what anyone else says or thinks” in the exhausting exhaust thread the other day?
Hard to believe with all that geniosity hasn’t made you a billionaire yet; get out of the way Elon Musk, Wile E Coyote is going to show you how it’s done...
at the peril of having my world collapsed; pretty much most of what you post on here is complete nonsense.
.
Team - please remember that technical threads should stay on a 'technical' level, and if you can't rebut technically, at least avoid ad hominem attacks.
My apology for not recognizing the “collapsing your world” comment along with dismissing people without any reasonable logic, data, or rationale for qualifying as a “technical discussion/subject”.
Technically the basis of the thread is absurd to the point of not even qualify as a technical thread. Because you know, Mazda engineers have no idea to protect the engine they manufacture simply by adding a second drain back valve at the top of a vertical-up filter. It doesn’t make any more sense than the attempts to dismiss the technical merits that were made by concluding everyone else lacks intelligence to understand a consistently illogical thought process being promoted by the same person over and over again.
It’s a snake oil argument over a marketing gimmick that only someone with little to no technical understanding would fall for. That’s pretty much all anyone needs to understand about this and the recent flood of similar threads being posted. .
My apology for not recognizing the “collapsing your world” comment along with dismissing people without any reasonable logic, data, or rationale for qualifying as a “technical discussion/subject”.
Technically the basis of the thread is absurd to the point of not even qualify as a technical thread. Because you know, Mazda engineers have no idea to protect the engine they manufacture simply by adding a second drain back valve at the top of a vertical-up filter. It doesn’t make any more sense than the attempts to dismiss the technical merits that were made by concluding everyone else lacks intelligence to understand a consistently illogical thought process being promoted by the same person over and over again.
It’s a snake oil argument over a marketing gimmick that only someone with little to no technical understanding would fall for. That’s pretty much all anyone needs to understand about this and the recent flood of similar threads being posted. .
You know what? there is a name for a person with your behavior. It is no my obligation to mention it as if I would I become like you!!!
YES, Mazda fucked huge time on these engines, otherwise, they won't die like a fly with 50K milage whereas older rotaries pass 150k milage with older technology.
Everyone knows, (even the Mazda engineers are they fix it on S2) how Mazda is fucked on oil pressure and oil line in housing.
How funny I did not even mention the brands with double valves loll
The engines aren't dying from startup wear is the point there. You're welcome to use whatever filter you want, but the real world results on this forum don't indicate that the engines need anything more than the usual filter. As you say, it's a 100 year old problem solved 99.9 years ago.
There are other threads for oil pressure and fuel dilution that may be interesting, but they have nothing to do with the filter.
The engines aren't dying from startup wear is the point there.
You're welcome to use whatever filter you want, but the real-world results on this forum don't indicate that the engines need anything more than the usual filter. As you say, it's a 100 year old problem solved 99.9 years ago.
There are other threads for oil pressure and fuel dilution that may be interesting, but they have nothing to do with the filter.
What real work? are on....
Wrong it not solved and never gonna solve on street engines, heavy-duty engines, and turbines it solved by adding an electric oil pump or even a manual pump to pump oil before the start.
Having an extra valve on the oil filer is insurance to push the rubber lip seals of the firest valve in place also prevent the drain of the clean oil.
"You're welcome to use whatever filter you want"
I did not ask for your permission.
"The engines aren't dying from startup wear is the point there."
prove it.
I suspect no amount of information is going to sway the opinion you've decided on, but things to consider:1) the Used Oil Analysis thread with many users posting repeat UOAs, in which wear metals are not present in problematic amounts 2) overwhelming number of reports of compression loss, as opposed to bearing failure as the the cause of death 3) reports from multiple professional rebuilders on this forum and elsewhere of what they find when they open broken engines. There are cases of premature bearing failure, but it doesn't affect all / most dead engines and in those cases low speed driving and idling leads to fuel dilution and bearing damage that way.
I'm not sure why I have to repeat this, but if you were right and single valve filters were problematic, there would be cars with blown bearings all over the place. There are not.
On that note, good day to you sir. Suggest you find another forum where you can feel right without having to do any of the work to be right.
I suspect no amount of information is going to sway the opinion you've decided on, but things to consider:
1) the Used Oil Analysis thread with many users posting repeat UOAs, in which wear metals are not present in problematic amounts
2) overwhelming number of reports of compression loss, as opposed to bearing failure as the the cause of death
3) reports from multiple professional rebuilders on this forum and elsewhere of what they find when they open broken engines.
There are cases of premature bearing failure, but it doesn't affect all / most dead engines and in those cases low speed driving and idling leads to fuel dilution and bearing damage that way.
I'm not sure why I have to repeat this, but if you were right and single valve filters were problematic, there would be cars with blown bearings all over the place. There are not.
On that note, good day to you sir. Suggest you find another forum where you can feel right without having to do any of the work to be right.
1- Oil analysis thread is long +1000 mixed replied with people still believe the bearings are made of Lead :d or they don't know where the where could be cupper comes from?
2- As I mentioned compression loss could be a by-product of failer in bearing as it could increase paly in rotors, hence putting Eshaft out of true.
Bearing failure could be acute or chronic. I believe most of the rachet monkeys don't know differently as they inspect bearing visually.
3- The reason for engine failure could be failing compression or side seal or... the cause of failure of those could be a chronic bearing failure.
Of course any decent builder would chang bearings regardless of the reason for a rebuild.
An increasing fraction of mm clearance on stationery bearing would multiply to many many times on to the rotors clearance.
Regarding the start wear in an engine, I have to say it is black and white clear in any literature as that's the only time (in the healthy engine) we have near metal to metal friction( no film of oil with correct tension ) over the bearing and considering the way rotaries starts it is more dangerous.
You can not measure the clearance of bearing in the rotary engine like conventional engines and the only time you can say there is a bearing failure is the time you
have an acute failure that much obvious even Stevie Wonder could confirm it visually.
I would make the same suggestion to you and even advise you to do not to participate in a threat without having academic comprehension over the matter of the topic.
Irony double anti returns valve filters are not only cheaper even having higher standards.
I can not understand why people against something which is clearly better on any engineering level and even cheaper in price, whiles they spend $$$ on questionable
parts and called them " upgrade ".
So many topics lying around about bearing failure. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...-242397/page2/
I can not understand why people against something which is clearly better on any engineering level and even cheaper in price, whiles they spend $$$ on questionable
parts and called them " upgrade ".
So many topics lying around about bearing failure. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...-242397/page2/
Some engines have a drainback issue. I hear them warm start in the parking lots, all the time, and wonder if the owners even have a clue what that noise is. I can hear rods and crankshaft both. These are modern cars. I am sure they running jiffy lube filters and the CAFE mandated 5w-20, or 0w-20. Should give instant oil pressure, right? NO. Many engines need help in this area. Older Toyota 4 cylinders, definitely. This engine? Not at all in my experience. I get instant oil pressure (mechanical gauge) even running the "dread "20w-50 in the wintertime. Further, of all the many oil analysis reports I have personally done show 0 difference in winter or summer regarding any evidence of bearing metal. I use the Mazda oem s2 filter. I have to pierce the top to get oil to drain into the sump when changing it. Even then, it still makes a mess.
So, while what you say is not wrong, it doesn't really apply here. Most of those bearing failures that you see are due to issues after start up, lack of lubrication under load. They are clearly catastrophic failures, not primarily excessive wear failures, for various reasons.
Also, people here have spent time to engage in argument about the point you put forth. There is a ton of experience on this forum. You would be wise to recognize that when bringing your ideas. It will go better for you, and be a lot easier on everyone else.
I do not have much time to spend here, as matter of fact here is like my fun.
Referring to conventional engines, these days they designed to fail not to last. plus they must pass through lots of obligatory standards which is getting harder every year.
Also on selling point have good mpg on the sticker and.... So, if a company wants to survive they must go cheap on lots of parts, use 0-something oil and follow other manufacturing steps.
When I was a teenager I used to go to my uncle service shop to learn about oil pumps repair and clearance and all sorts of failures in that area for engines as so I learn it inside out even before
I become a university-qualified mechanic and I did use my experience for million $$$ oil platform engines and turbines. All I mentioned was to say "how deep the rabbit hole goes".
"Not at all in my experience. I get instant oil pressure (mechanical gauge) even running the "dread "20w-50 in the wintertime"
You can not hear starvation or measure oil starvation on startup as it always starts from zero and only lasts for a few critical seconds.
Also, everyone knows the front housing and rear housing could have up to 40% oil pressure difference in S1.
Basically what everyone does is measuring oil at the oil filter or even at the oil pump exit which is WRONG, you need to tap somewhere at the end of the oil gallery.
My oil gauge is also hooked to the oil sandwich and always shows good healthy( false high positive) reading from 25psi to 75 psi with full synthetic 10-60 which is very foolish to believe that
reading would be the same in bearing journals or other places.
"Also, people here have spent time to engage in argument about the point you put forth. There is a ton of experience on this forum. You would be wise to recognize that when bringing your ideas. It will go better for you, and be a lot easier on everyone else."
Indeed there is, however, have they ever use what I say? did you guys know whom made these so-called Mazda OEM filters? Why Mazda replace filter place in S2?
What I proposed here is an effective way to stay on a safe road and surprisingly it is cheaper in price and higher in quality.
I can understand people would resist which thing they could not undressed.
"I use the Mazda oem s2 filter" is that rated for S1? pressure gradating never would be that much to open bypass on very cold start so you would force cold oil push to filter elements, in other words, increase pressure on your filter( I call it false high reading) but starve bearing at the end. If you asking me that's a false practice.
"I have to pierce the top to get oil to drain into the sump when changing it. Even then, it still makes a mess."
After piercing leaving for a few hours/overnight as that's what happens on a very cold start.
"Wile E Coyote is going to show you how it’s done..."
I do not have much time to spend here, as matter of fact here is like my fun.
Referring to conventional engines, these days they designed to fail not to last. plus they must pass through lots of obligatory standards which is getting harder every year.
Also on selling point have good mpg on the sticker and.... So, if a company wants to survive they must go cheap on lots of parts, use 0-something oil and follow other manufacturing steps.
When I was a teenager I used to go to my uncle service shop to learn about oil pumps repair and clearance and all sorts of failures in that area for engines as so I learn it inside out even before
I become a university-qualified mechanic and I did use my experience for million $$$ oil platform engines and turbines. All I mentioned was to say "how deep the rabbit hole goes".
"Not at all in my experience. I get instant oil pressure (mechanical gauge) even running the "dread "20w-50 in the wintertime"
You can not hear starvation or measure oil starvation on startup as it always starts from zero and only lasts for a few critical seconds.
Also, everyone knows the front housing and rear housing could have up to 40% oil pressure difference in S1.
Basically what everyone does is measuring oil at the oil filter or even at the oil pump exit which is WRONG, you need to tap somewhere at the end of the oil gallery.
My oil gauge is also hooked to the oil sandwich and always shows good healthy( false high positive) reading from 25psi to 75 psi with full synthetic 10-60 which is very foolish to believe that
reading would be the same in bearing journals or other places.
"Also, people here have spent time to engage in argument about the point you put forth. There is a ton of experience on this forum. You would be wise to recognize that when bringing your ideas. It will go better for you, and be a lot easier on everyone else."
Indeed there is, however, have they ever use what I say? did you guys know whom made these so-called Mazda OEM filters? Why Mazda replace filter place in S2?
What I proposed here is an effective way to stay on a safe road and surprisingly it is cheaper in price and higher in quality.
I can understand people would resist which thing they could not undressed.
"I use the Mazda oem s2 filter" is that rated for S1? pressure gradating never would be that much to open bypass on very cold start so you would force cold oil push to filter elements, in other words, increase pressure on your filter( I call it false high reading) but starve bearing at the end. If you asking me that's a false practice.
"I have to pierce the top to get oil to drain into the sump when changing it. Even then, it still makes a mess."
After piercing leaving for a few hours/overnight as that's what happens on a very cold start.
02-19-2021, 04:07 PM
One or two anti return valve? thats the question..
