Which oil, dino or synthetic?
Thread Starter
Love to rev!
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From: Mississauga - Ontario
Which oil, dino or synthetic?
I still haven't found a proper answer to this.. Can synthetic oil be used in a rotary engine? Synthetics are of course much better than regular oils for piston engines but are they better for rotary engine applications?
Nomad Mod
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From: Hilton or Marriott
Although I use dino-juice in my 3rd gen, the newest generation of synthetic oil with lower ash content and increased combustibility works great. Remember the rotary has oil injection from a metering pump to lube the apex seals and housings, similar to a 2-stroke engine. The car is designed to burn oil so check it often. There was an issue of carbon build-up and unburnt oil deposits but has since been rectified with new formulation. I change my oil every 1500 miles so the added expense of synthetic isn't really worth it.
Registered User
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Originally posted by m477
As Toadman said, synthetics are fine in a rotary. But what I'm really curious about is which one Mazda will recommend...
As Toadman said, synthetics are fine in a rotary. But what I'm really curious about is which one Mazda will recommend...
We'll see though... maybe I'll do it myself. It's not a big deal as I do it in my Millenia now... so we'll see what my schedule is like
uhhhhh....hello?
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BLAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
anyways, does it really matter? is there synthetics available that are better for a rotary than a given "dino" oil? And im assuming that means natural gass. Ofcourse i would assume so, because synthetics and are designed to do the job of lubrication better than a natural oil but then again i am completely ignorant lol.
________
RECALL PAXIL
anyways, does it really matter? is there synthetics available that are better for a rotary than a given "dino" oil? And im assuming that means natural gass. Ofcourse i would assume so, because synthetics and are designed to do the job of lubrication better than a natural oil but then again i am completely ignorant lol.
________
RECALL PAXIL
Last edited by P00Man; Apr 16, 2011 at 04:16 PM.
Registered User
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Originally posted by P00Man
BLAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
anyways, does it really matter? is there synthetics available that are better for a rotary than a given "dino" oil? And im assuming that means natural gass. Ofcourse i would assume so, because synthetics and are designed to do the job of lubrication better than a natural oil but then again i am completely ignorant lol.
BLAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
anyways, does it really matter? is there synthetics available that are better for a rotary than a given "dino" oil? And im assuming that means natural gass. Ofcourse i would assume so, because synthetics and are designed to do the job of lubrication better than a natural oil but then again i am completely ignorant lol.
uhhhhh....hello?
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yaeh i know, those are known as FOSSILIZED Fuels, or natural oils lol anywho...thanks
What happens if you put GLUE into the oil thing? blahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what about MOLTEN LEAD? are those good for the engine? bblahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
________
Honey Oil
What happens if you put GLUE into the oil thing? blahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what about MOLTEN LEAD? are those good for the engine? bblahAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
________
Honey Oil
Last edited by P00Man; Apr 16, 2011 at 04:16 PM.
Technical prodigy
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From: Belgium - Diepenbeek
Originally posted by Toadman
...Remember the rotary has oil injection from a metering pump to lube the apex seals and housings, similar to a 2-stroke engine. The car is designed to burn oil so check it often...
...Remember the rotary has oil injection from a metering pump to lube the apex seals and housings, similar to a 2-stroke engine. The car is designed to burn oil so check it often...
I think we should use oil with a high viscosity to break-in the engine (e.g. 15w40)
Thread Starter
Love to rev!
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From: Mississauga - Ontario
Originally posted by BryanH
I wonder how long it will be before someone comes out with a special "rotary engine formula" motor oil designed specifically for the needs of the Wankel.
I wonder how long it will be before someone comes out with a special "rotary engine formula" motor oil designed specifically for the needs of the Wankel.
Pooman: I think you should try following this adage: " If you don't have anything good(intelligent) to say, don't say it(post it) at all" Please keep your off topic posts about the glue and molten lead in the lounge.
How much do you think will the Renesis burn? If a lot then using synthetic oil would be cost prohibitive.. Would the Renesis benefit from synthetic oil properties like a very low pour point and high resistance to breakdown and shearing?:
Last edited by Quick_lude; Jan 6, 2003 at 05:02 AM.
Something
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From: Medford/Somerville MA
I've always read/heard that Synth is not good for a rotary, since rotaries need to burn a little oil, and synth doesn't burn well.
Either way, I personally think synth is a waste of money. Buy Dino, change it and the filter every 3,000, and you'll be fine.
Either way, I personally think synth is a waste of money. Buy Dino, change it and the filter every 3,000, and you'll be fine.
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Love to rev!
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From: Mississauga - Ontario
Originally posted by JGard18
Either way, I personally think synth is a waste of money. Buy Dino, change it and the filter every 3,000, and you'll be fine.
Either way, I personally think synth is a waste of money. Buy Dino, change it and the filter every 3,000, and you'll be fine.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php
Big Bad and Black.
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From: Ohio
Guess whats the main ingrediant in syn. oil. I was totally shocked
its the worst thing for internal parts. but its SAND thats right that totally abrasive stuff. Don't ask me how the chemist does it but that totally goes against common sense.
its the worst thing for internal parts. but its SAND thats right that totally abrasive stuff. Don't ask me how the chemist does it but that totally goes against common sense.
Thread Starter
Love to rev!
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From: Mississauga - Ontario
Originally posted by JGard18
nah, I'll still stick by my statement. I don't believe it's worth the money.
That's not an ignorant statement, it's a statement of opinion.
Try not to be a dick next time.
nah, I'll still stick by my statement. I don't believe it's worth the money.
That's not an ignorant statement, it's a statement of opinion.
Try not to be a dick next time.
but could you elaborate why you have such an opinion of synthetic oils? I'm talking about group IV and V PAO or ESTER based synthetics like Mobil1, Amsoil, etc. NOT Castrol Syntec.
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From: Dallas Texas
Originally posted by Spining Ncnratr
Guess whats the main ingrediant in syn. oil. I was totally shocked
its the worst thing for internal parts. but its SAND thats right that totally abrasive stuff. Don't ask me how the chemist does it but that totally goes against common sense.
Guess whats the main ingrediant in syn. oil. I was totally shocked
its the worst thing for internal parts. but its SAND thats right that totally abrasive stuff. Don't ask me how the chemist does it but that totally goes against common sense.
Hey, can anyone explane this sand thing?
... It doesn't seem right? Is it synthetic sand?
mostly harmless
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From: Greater Vancouver Area, BC
Originally posted by Quick_lude
How much do you think will the Renesis burn? If a lot then using synthetic oil would be cost prohibitive.. Would the Renesis benefit from synthetic oil properties like a very low pour point and high resistance to breakdown and shearing?:
How much do you think will the Renesis burn? If a lot then using synthetic oil would be cost prohibitive.. Would the Renesis benefit from synthetic oil properties like a very low pour point and high resistance to breakdown and shearing?:
i don't know how much of a benefit the RENESIS would have in a regular street application... i believe, if i have all my sums (in my head) correct, the rotor moves against the eccentric shaft's journal at 2/3's the RPM of the engine, so a good deal slower than a con rod on a crank journal...
even taking the engine up to 9000 rpm regularly, those heat exchangers will take really good care of your oil for you, and synthetic isn't leaps and bounds above high grade mineral oils in terms of slipperiness...
BUT, if you live in a place like Canada, where there are significant tempurature extremes, track the car sometimes, or forget the changes sometimes, synthetic might be a good idea
Last edited by wakeech; Jan 6, 2003 at 02:49 PM.
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Need I remind you guys of the forum rules? Comon now calm down
Let's just let it wait until we get the manual and Mazda's official word on it, okay? Right now we just speculate and perhaps it can go either way. If Mazda says it's okay to use synthetic then use it, and those that feel more comfortable using dino oils can do so.
Let's just let it wait until we get the manual and Mazda's official word on it, okay? Right now we just speculate and perhaps it can go either way. If Mazda says it's okay to use synthetic then use it, and those that feel more comfortable using dino oils can do so.
Rotary Freak
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From: Williamsburg, VA
Ahh the endless debate!!!!!!
You guys should read some of the posts on The RX-7 Forum. They are still fighting about this.
Here is my take on this:
The official recomendation by Mazda for the RX-7 is DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL IN THE ENGINE.
Pettit Racing (All well respected rotary shop in FL) says Synth might be OK, but why risk it.
Mazdatrix (Another well respected shop in CA) says the same thing.
Racing Beat (Another shop in CA) Loves Royal Purple Synth.
There are lots of people on the RX-7 board that swear by synth (A lot of them use Moble 1), but others say it's a bad Idea in the long run.
I have heard people say that Synth is OK as long as you don't use it during break in & as long as you haven't been using Dino for too many miles (like 40K) because of a chemical reaction with old Dino soaked rings & seals.
I tend to agree with thoughs that error on the side of caution. Why risk it. If you are hell bent on using Synthetic I would only use one that is marketed for Rotarys like Royal Purple. I think that Racing Beat is reputable enough to trust.
PS in a piston engine Synthetic Oil is Great! but............................................ If it ain't a rotor, it ain't a motor!
You guys should read some of the posts on The RX-7 Forum. They are still fighting about this.
Here is my take on this:
The official recomendation by Mazda for the RX-7 is DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC OIL IN THE ENGINE.
Pettit Racing (All well respected rotary shop in FL) says Synth might be OK, but why risk it.
Mazdatrix (Another well respected shop in CA) says the same thing.
This has got to be one of the most frequently asked questions ever!
Here is our answer:
The Rotary engine has an oil injection system that injects small amounts of oil into either the intake tract, carb, or rotor housing (depending on year/model). This is needed to lubricate the various internal seals and surfaces.
The injected oil MUST BURN, and must burn clean. The root answer to the question is that not ALL synthetic oils burn, and not ALLof them burn clean.
The ones that do not burn accumulate until they foul the spark plugs.
The ones that do not burn clean can leave residues of various substances (like ash? plastic? non-organic sand?) that accumulate until the spark plugs foul, or a seal sticks -- could be apex seal, side seal, corner seal, or oil control ring. The normal consequence of a stuck seal is an engine tear down.
In the many years we have been involved in rotary engines, we have NEVER had a problem with GOOD petroleum based oils. They work fine! They are less expensive than synthetics. (We use Castrol 20-50 GTX). They burn clean, etc. etc.
The problem with answering the original question is that it is NOT a simple yes or no. We DO simplify it to a "NO", but that is because we do NOT know whether the specific brand of synthetic the customer has in mind will work. AND, if it does not work, how long will it be before the damage shows up, and how bad will the damage be? Maybe it will take 10,000 miles, maybe 50,000 miles?? Maybe the engine will fail due to something unrelated to the oil, and there won't be enough left to determine why the failure happened.
WE are not willing to take that gamble, are you ?
Then, take a minute to think of WHY you want to use a synthetic. If a rotary engine (properly maintained, oil changes at 3K intervals, etc.) can still be running fine at over 200,000 miles, the engine does not need any more cooling, the gas milage will not be any better, etc. etc. WHY do you want to spend more $$ and gamble on engine and/or spark plug damage? (If you are into the fossil fuel thing, pollution, depleting our resources, etc. then you should not be driving ANY car!)
We are not chemists, and we do not have the time, $$'s, nor inclination to do 100K mile tests of various synthetics in rotary engines.
We DO use synthetics in the transmissions and rear ends - it works fine.
Anyway - that is the MAZDATRIX version of the synthetic question.
Here is our answer:
The Rotary engine has an oil injection system that injects small amounts of oil into either the intake tract, carb, or rotor housing (depending on year/model). This is needed to lubricate the various internal seals and surfaces.
The injected oil MUST BURN, and must burn clean. The root answer to the question is that not ALL synthetic oils burn, and not ALLof them burn clean.
The ones that do not burn accumulate until they foul the spark plugs.
The ones that do not burn clean can leave residues of various substances (like ash? plastic? non-organic sand?) that accumulate until the spark plugs foul, or a seal sticks -- could be apex seal, side seal, corner seal, or oil control ring. The normal consequence of a stuck seal is an engine tear down.
In the many years we have been involved in rotary engines, we have NEVER had a problem with GOOD petroleum based oils. They work fine! They are less expensive than synthetics. (We use Castrol 20-50 GTX). They burn clean, etc. etc.
The problem with answering the original question is that it is NOT a simple yes or no. We DO simplify it to a "NO", but that is because we do NOT know whether the specific brand of synthetic the customer has in mind will work. AND, if it does not work, how long will it be before the damage shows up, and how bad will the damage be? Maybe it will take 10,000 miles, maybe 50,000 miles?? Maybe the engine will fail due to something unrelated to the oil, and there won't be enough left to determine why the failure happened.
WE are not willing to take that gamble, are you ?
Then, take a minute to think of WHY you want to use a synthetic. If a rotary engine (properly maintained, oil changes at 3K intervals, etc.) can still be running fine at over 200,000 miles, the engine does not need any more cooling, the gas milage will not be any better, etc. etc. WHY do you want to spend more $$ and gamble on engine and/or spark plug damage? (If you are into the fossil fuel thing, pollution, depleting our resources, etc. then you should not be driving ANY car!)
We are not chemists, and we do not have the time, $$'s, nor inclination to do 100K mile tests of various synthetics in rotary engines.
We DO use synthetics in the transmissions and rear ends - it works fine.
Anyway - that is the MAZDATRIX version of the synthetic question.
Racing Beat has been recommending the use of synthetic oils in rotary applications for several years. Our research has found that synthetic oils provide superior friction reducing between sliding surfaces, reduced foaming, and lower oil temperatures. We have tested several different synthetic oils and have found that while most offered improved wear and lower oil temperatures, none offered any horsepower gains... except for Royal Purple!
Our in-house testing has yielded up to a 2% performance increase after changing from mineral-based oil to Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil. How could this be? Jim Mederer, co-founder and chief engineer at Racing Beat, was truly puzzled. With over 35 years of professional racing experience under his belt, he has seen and tried just about every “new” lubricant that hits the market. All offered better wear and lower oil temperatures but none offered any horsepower improvement. After spending time consulting with the engineers at Royal Purple to better understand the reason for the horsepower gain, it was explained that the secret was the proprietary ingredient “Synerlec”. This Synerlec ingredient provides an ultra-slick film on internal engine components to significantly reduce power-robbing friction. Less friction equals more power!
Other professional engine builders have confirmed that Royal Purple Synthetic Racing Oil delivers measurable horsepower gains. Independent dyno tests show increases up to 5% (on smaller displacement engines) with nothing more than an oil change.
Give Royal Purple a try with your next oil change!
Our in-house testing has yielded up to a 2% performance increase after changing from mineral-based oil to Royal Purple Synthetic Motor Oil. How could this be? Jim Mederer, co-founder and chief engineer at Racing Beat, was truly puzzled. With over 35 years of professional racing experience under his belt, he has seen and tried just about every “new” lubricant that hits the market. All offered better wear and lower oil temperatures but none offered any horsepower improvement. After spending time consulting with the engineers at Royal Purple to better understand the reason for the horsepower gain, it was explained that the secret was the proprietary ingredient “Synerlec”. This Synerlec ingredient provides an ultra-slick film on internal engine components to significantly reduce power-robbing friction. Less friction equals more power!
Other professional engine builders have confirmed that Royal Purple Synthetic Racing Oil delivers measurable horsepower gains. Independent dyno tests show increases up to 5% (on smaller displacement engines) with nothing more than an oil change.
Give Royal Purple a try with your next oil change!
I have heard people say that Synth is OK as long as you don't use it during break in & as long as you haven't been using Dino for too many miles (like 40K) because of a chemical reaction with old Dino soaked rings & seals.
I tend to agree with thoughs that error on the side of caution. Why risk it. If you are hell bent on using Synthetic I would only use one that is marketed for Rotarys like Royal Purple. I think that Racing Beat is reputable enough to trust.
PS in a piston engine Synthetic Oil is Great! but............................................ If it ain't a rotor, it ain't a motor!
Thread Starter
Love to rev!
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From: Mississauga - Ontario
Yes Boss.. :p Personally I'm not very familiar with how the rotary engine "uses the oil" and "treats" it. So once again, woud the synths cold temp flow and high temp resistance properties benefit the rotary the same way it benefits a piston engine?
Ooops, posted at the same time.
20W50?! Wow, that is a HEAVY oil.. much too heavy for Canada.
Ooops, posted at the same time.
20W50?! Wow, that is a HEAVY oil.. much too heavy for Canada.
Last edited by Quick_lude; Jan 6, 2003 at 03:17 PM.
Rotary Freak
Joined: May 2002
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From: Williamsburg, VA
Short answer: Yes (if you are willing to risk it.)
The whole issue is because the rotary engine injects a small anount of oil into the combustion camber for lubrication of the seals, there is concern about what happens after the oil goes through the combustion cycle, what residue is left behind and what happens to it.
This is not an issue with Dino Juice - it burns off clean.
This CAN BE (hence the controversy) an issue with Synth.
The whole issue is because the rotary engine injects a small anount of oil into the combustion camber for lubrication of the seals, there is concern about what happens after the oil goes through the combustion cycle, what residue is left behind and what happens to it.
This is not an issue with Dino Juice - it burns off clean.
This CAN BE (hence the controversy) an issue with Synth.
Last edited by Styjan; Jan 6, 2003 at 03:21 PM.