akrx8

this may be a bit of topic but i thought i would throw this out fyi.my current ride is a factory tuned svt focus(go ahead and laugh if you must)it has dyno at fr wheels at 156hp.rated at 170hp from svt.(a few mods)anyway i drove a rx8 today that was the first car to arrive here.my impressions after driving this car only shifting at 4500 rpms was like oh my god,this car is so fast.it feels waaaaaaay more powerful than the svt and waaay more than my buddys 225hp tt.i also run a 10sec drag car and it takes alot to impress me.imo this car feels more powerfull than i excpected from 210whp.me personally would like that 210whp but after driving this car i will be smiling ear to ear and will be looking forward to my commute to work.now my svt feels like a big fat slug.

BOOSTD 7

I'm still just not buying any of this ... the A/F's from the dyno are actually pretty decent numbers. Much higher than that is the point where rotaries start blowing seals at a high percentages. I don't get why Paul is saying rotaries like it on the lean side? Since when? Unless the side-port changes everything, which I doubt it would. Any hint of knock will still have the same effect on a side ports apex seals ... BOOM! Every rotary I've ever tuned or have seen tuned makes the most power at around 12.8 - 13.2 A/F. Most guys run richer than that for safety. This car isn't that far off from that, certainly not 20+ hp off from that. The one thing we don't know is what they're doing with the timing. Being a bit rich plus a very conservative timing map could make up the 20 hp.

You know, completely broken in FD's bone stock ran very similar A/F ratio's as the one posted with the dyno. Just a touch leaner, but not much. There was never this issue of magically appearing power with them, they made 220 - 225 at the wheels right off the showroom floor. Kevin Wyum ran a 13.3 in one with just a handful of miles on it.

I just don't buy any of it. I think there's a problem with the power, and I'm not very optimistic. That's a very very bad thing. Like Paul said, his business depends on the success of this car. So does mine. If this car fails, then so do my websites.

klauber

I have been doing some initial investigations towards positioning myself to purchase this automobile.

I have an '85 RX-7 GSL that has been a pleasure to own, and I held high hopes for the RX-8. The thought of owning one has been very entertaining... but yesterday the wind has gone from my sails with news of this power issue.

I am no expert, but the air fuel ratios do not look abnormal enough to me to account for a 20HP power loss.

All my plans for owning this vehicle have come to a standstill until I hear some announcement from Mazda that will put all this speculative chit chat to rest.

This has been very disheartening for me.

yawpower

This is a naturally aspirated engine. Running it in the mid 13's will not blow apex seals, it will just make better power.

Mid 13's is not lean.

Yes, knock will break apex seals, but this is not a boosted motor. Detonation is not an issue.


Boosted motors running on pump gas need to run rich to avoid detonation. If the fuel had sufficient octane, there would be no need to run rich, and best power would be made with a more appropriate air fuel ratio. The richness that you are familiar with is there to cool the charge, not to make more power.

If you look at the pipe on a naturally aspirated, properly jetted race engine, it will be clean. If it is rich enough to blacken the pipe, it will be down on power by a considerable amount.

I'm not posting this for the sake of argument, I just wanted to make it clear that the situation is very different from a boosted motor on pump gas.

The issue that everyone is concerned with is power, and as I said before, I am simply stating my opinion of the situation.

I hope that this all sorts itself out soon.

PY

rxeightr

Me too. Thanks Paul for providing me (& others) much needed comfort.

eclps0

dont kill the messenger here!

i got off the phone with a service tech from my dealer and he said the car has tpo be broken in a couple thousand of miles. Ans the ecu would have to get reflashed to a better timming fot max performance and mpg. But the tech di say that it would probaly do it by itself or would have to go in to the dealer. The tech also said that it could be the dyno or the car wasnt set up proaply also the car makes alot of horepower beacuse of how the intake is designed so i dont think if u r on a dyno u can replicate the air flow or veolcity of air entering the air intake chambers.

well its just my 2 cents
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GENERAL JEW

MrWigggles

GENERAL,

Thanks for the info.

-Mr. Wigggles

Ps. I would consider getting a new keyboard.

BOOSTD 7

What you're saying is true Paul, but you know that N/A motors still blow from detonation. They don't have to be boosted. And just because it came from the factory and Mazda engineers, doesn't mean it has to be perfect. Hell, look at the new STi's, they're probably going to have to do a recall because most of them detonate like crazy when it get warm outside ... they didn't test with lower octane US gas.

Of course the extra fuel is to cool the intake charge, but that's exactly the point. Any leaner and it gets to hot, and causes detonation.

I too hope this sorts itself out soon.

yawpower

No, I don't know that, nor do I believe that. Additionally, if I did believe that, I would simply run higher octane fuel so that I could run the correct air fuel ratio.

If detonation were a concern, Downing Atlanta would not have won the 24 at Daytona on 87 octane pump gas, and Mazda would not have claimed several GT-3 championships on pump gas.

I'm sure there are many more examples, I am only stating those examples that I know ran pump gas, and ran an air fuel ratio that was optimized for power output, not detonation resistance.

If what you are saying is true, I would destroy every motor that I build while tuning it on the dyno.

You're not buying my explanation for the dyno results. That's fine. None of us have all the facts since we cannot know how the ECU is programmed.

I have stated my opinion about "where the power went", and you disagree.

I don't have a probelem with that, but let's not turn this into an argument about how a motor should be tuned.

I'm on your side. I just don't believe that Mazda made a 25 horsepower mistake.

Several people have made inquiries to Mazda, and I'm sure that the answers will be here soon enough.

1stRX8

I am giving Mazda the benifit of the doubt.....For Now. A few weeks and few miles down the road I WILL expect an explanation from them. I'm with Paul. I have a hard time believing that Mazda would release a Flagship car with MANY years of R&D with a very significant HP problem.

I will be patient for a while.

Racer X-8

I'm gonna really show my ECU ignorance here and just ask a simple question.

Why can't we know?

Chadr

Racer- We cannot know how it is programmed for several reasons but the single largest is the vast majority of ECUs are encrypted to prevent tampering with them. Someone will reverse engineer it and release ECU chips but we cannot get the factory program without the factory giving the code to someone and I am betting that isn't going to happen.

At this stage all we can do is wait and see what Mazda says about this whole deal. I have to say I am disappointed that no information is available at this time. If this is intentional it should be documented somewhere to prevent this type of situation and if it is unintentional Mazda should be saying they are looking into the matter seriously and every current owner will be informed ASAP.

RX-Nut

Yup, Mazda got nowhere to hide in this day and age.. It's the Information Age baby.. fact or fiction spreads like wildfire!

I mean I love the car and all, but we all know we wanted 250.. When it dropped to 247, it took a little bit of me.. but I was like 3bhp, big deal.. But now, learning it could be even more.. ouch.

With the numbers we're seeing (180s rear wheel), doesnt that translate to about 200bhp at the flywheel then? I'm just grasping.. I dunno j@ck about the loss from drivetrain..

Can someone say buy-back?

BillK

I can understand anger and frustration at Mazda at this point, but based on owner reviews a majority of owners are thrilled with their RX-8s, so aside from fair advertising reasons and those who bought one only for bragging rights, I don't see why you'd want Mazda to buy back your car.

I can see why you''d want the option but based on the test drive I had earlier this week I frankly can't imagine giving the car up and it has also completely changed by notion of how much horsepower I need; if it's really only putting out 180 HP than apparently 180 HP is more than I need to keep me happy as I didn't find the car to be sluggish or underpowered in the least (and that's here at 5500' altitude where the car is making less HP than at sea level to begin with...)

RodsterinFL

I agree with Racer X-8 Why can't we know? We do not need the code. Just a simple answer to the question of remapping.

Will the ECU remap and at what point does this happen? (if so)

Magnesium

Me too!

ggreen29

I get a kick outa how so many loved their car when they thought it was 247hp. So far it seems that only one person (Herc?) has attempted a 0-60, and he's come pretty close to the advert time. Then a couple of dyno tests come out and outrage & lawsuits are the talk of webtown.

I'm not suggesting that false adverts are small potatoes, and Mazda will have to deal with that if it's true. But has anyone's car actually gotten slower because of these dyno tests? Has anyone's handling gotten worse? Have fewer heads turned while you're driving? It's still the same car y'all liked 2 weeks ago. Just Zaino it like it's got 247hp and we'll all be happy again.

Racer X-8

Have you been planted by Mazda?

"OK, sure...it's got 250, no, 280, no, 300 little horses. I don't care what those nasty people on that forum say!"

"I paid $31,100, no, $28,100, no, $21,100 for it. Yeah, that's it!"

I might could live with 220 bhp, but I can't live with being told one thing but finding out another thing, then Mazda playing the waiting game to see if we will just get over it.

"I love rotary engines. Rotary engines are my friend...blahahahahaha" (Whooops!)

Digisan

Mazda will not wait till we get over it. They have to respond soon, otherwise I will be parking my car in front of MNAO and demanding my money back. I will give them a chance. We should have some info by next week.

pelucidor

Also MarkRx posted these results on 7-29-03 (note two people in a car not broken in using G-tech):

ggreen29

LOL
No, but I think this is a win-win situation for me. I really enjoyed the car when I got it and I enjoy the car even more now that we've shared some miles, even after I've read the dyno reports. Now one of three things will happen:

1) This is a planned fuel mapping issue which will resolve itself in time, after which I will get the fully adverted 247hp and have more power than I do now! Whoohoo!

2) This is a case of false adverting, which may end up like the Miate mess, which means I will get free maintenance for several years and STILL have a car I really, really, REALLY like. ! Whoohoo! (The sad part of this is that Mazda will lose alot of credibility and we mayn't see the 7.)

3) Or this is a genuine engine problem which Mazda will have to address in a manner similar to case 2. This option I'm not so excited about, but it'll mean a new car or a full buyback, or some other financial compensation for a car that is great right now.

Not to pick on Digisan, but his post is recent in this thread.
On 07-22-2003 02:50 PM he posted:
"Picked up my RX-8
Fantastic car, I love it!"

On 08-01-2003 10:49 PM he posted (excerpt):
"...otherwise I will be parking my car in front of MNAO and demanding my money back."

Now the car he drove from the dealer didn't change at all. The only thing that changed was his perception of what was under the hood.

P00Man

strange how peoples perceptions of things as a whole can change so drastically when thoughts of a part change slightly, especially when they wouldnt even have known better!


of course i can see it if its the principal of the matter...

BillK

Why does he have to be a "Mazda plant" to inject some common sense into the situation?

I don't remember seeing lots of traffic complaining of how underpowered the 8 felt, but when the dyno results were posted all hell broke loose.

I do love the rotary. I couldn't care less how many HP the engine makes as long as it doesn't feel sluggish. The RX-8 Sport MT I drove earlier this week didn't.

So, is it a big deal if Mazda advertised 247 HP and didn't deliver? Yes. Would it stop me from considering the RX-8? No.
Does it make the RX-8 any less enjoyable of a car than it was before you read your first dyno report? No.

As I've also mentioned before, would I have even shopped the RX-8 if it had a conventional engine? Also no.

So yes, I hope Mazda has something to say about the dyno test results seen here. I also believe they will need to do something to "set things right" with people who thought they were buying a car with 247 HP if it turns out it only has 200 at the crank.

But fact is if I want a rotary-powered car the RX-8 is it, and none of the posts here change what I felt when I test drove one earlier this week. They can restate the HP to 150 and it doesn't matter, it's still a quick sports car with a rotary to me and that's what I was hoping for from the 8. Perhaps the brouhaha over this is good if it causes someone near me to cancel their order and I can get their car.

Does that make me a Mazda plant? If so, someone in Irvine has been forgetting to mail my checks...

86rx7

Have you ever owned a NA rotary? Do you have any clue what people that own them do to make more HP? Most buy an S-AFC and lean the car out on a dyno untill it makes the most power about -15 to -30%, which puts it at mid 13's in AFR, some people make best power as lean as 14.2. Also I have NEVER i mean NEVER heard of an NA rotary dying from detonation. And ive heard of some crazy stuff, like turning the CAS to more advance untill the motor stumbles, then turning it back a few degrees. I'm not saying there detonation proof, just that its very very hard to do. Im sure if you leaned it out to 15 soemthing it would most likley pop. Boosted rotarys are completly different 11's and 12's are used for protection of the motor.If you could lean out a turbo motor with out it blowing, im sure mid 13's would make the most power, just like the NA's

86rx7

http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthr...light=afc+dyno

supporting thread form rx7club, check out the dyno, notice where it goes up to 15:1 the torque dips, also where it goes to like 12:1 the torque dips up and down in almost exact sync with the AFR( compare the little ripples up and down) also notcie that this car survived a 15:1 ratio, and is still running. Many NA second gens go lean like that at 3800 rpm (its the infamous hesitation we experience when the computer switches injectors and doesnt have enough current to fire both at first because of bad grounding) And you dont see almost every second gen on the road with a blown motor do you?

http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthr...o&pagenumber=1

lean spike of 18:1 , no blown motor here, also his target AFR was 14.2, and how he talks about how much the 12:1 hurt the top end.

I could find lots more threads, but i dont feel like it. Next time you post make sure its about soemthing you know, not something youve assumed from your work on boosted rotarys.

Also unless youve owned a rotary shop for many many years, with on on site dyno, and flow bench, and are one of the premier Tunners, who is ACTIVELY involved in tunning and developing products for rotarys RACING in many different areas including ITA, Pro7, E Production, and developing a supercharged RX8 for the speed world challenge (is this factory backed Yawpower?), as well as tunning rotarys for aviation use, and street use in NA and turbo form, including but not limited to periphreal ported, bridge ported and street ported Naturally aspirated Rotary motors which HAVE won races, i suggest you tink twice before second guessing him.

I also suggest you do more research on our forum about NA rotarys before you post here. No one is debating the fact that they like it leaner than the turbos, and make more power when leaned out closer to 14:1.

I'm probably going to get banned for this because he's admin :-(