partovi

I was reading this booklet on the international engine of the year for the RX-8. While reading i noticed that they say the engine puts out 240bhp and there is a 192bhp version available. I thought it was 247 and 210, or do I have this wrong. It also says in the booklet that it can achieve a repectable 34mpg, but the average is 26.2mpg. This info seems a little off to me, but it is in the booklet that i got at the dealership about the international engine award (red cover). Seems like they did all the testing on it and would know what they are talking about....so why the difference in HP and the so far unreached gas mileages?

Skyline Maniac

Unfortunately most publications and media do not routinely dyno cars they test, this includes Top Gear. The author simply quoted the Mazda publishing figure. Pretty much the same as when C&D or R&T says the RX-8 has 250hp a couple months back. Some Japanese magazines do publish dyno figures, the last I heard JDM 250ps Type S models dynos at around 200ps.

This quote here is interesting though:

crazydrifter

look i am just saying that many of the new high compression motor cars are all complaining of a high drop in hp when dynoed at the wheels of a loss of more than 30 hp...the link for the G35 is http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthre...=&fpart=1&vc=1 it should work if not look up "If Nissan says 280 hp in Coupe, I expect 280" on the forum.... one thing also is when the dyno the engine do they also put stress on the engine for added accessories...cause that was an issue brought up by the G35 guys...also just to let that person who thinks they are the almighty in G35's well your not...and i am not saying i am but i have a feeling since already owning a g35c and doing enough research on the car i cant tell you every little problem people have had with the car from the tinting of the windows to the noise from the ac compressor...to be honest the g35c out classes the rx-8...they both are great cars and are the best bang for buck out there on the market now...i think its a shame though how the rx8 is such a nice and great car yet is slower than the new dodge... something else you might not all know is that if the rx8 was given a lower hp rating something closer to the actual 220 it really produces your insurance would drop and the money saved could be invested into your car....i will say the rx8 looks great but looks doesnt make you smile as much when you go through curves....to be honest i am looking for a well handling fast car that looks decent and can easily be modded....but maybe i should wait till the skyline gtr comes out in 04....

Mark Booth

I noticed Mazda's full two-page ad for the RX-8 in the August issue of Automobile mag. The ad copy contained this text:

"Naturally aspirated 250 horsepower*"

Way down in the left hand corner of the ad I fully expected the asterick item to read:

"*In our dreams"

But, alas, it simply said "*Manual transmision only"

Mark

Mark Booth

Regarding the Miata horsepower issue.. it was the 2001 model that was found to be incorrect... not the '90 model.

Mark

canzoomer

Precisely correct.
And they way they dealt with it was to offer either:
Buyback including all costs
$800 service credit and a $500 credit card credit

See:
http://www.mx5club.org.nz/news/mazda...01_horsepower/

http://www.miata.net/news/power.html

Unfortunately the solution was not to fix the problem.
IF ( I said IF!) we have a power problem on the RX-8, it seems unlikely they will actually fix it, based on the above.

partovi

I was reading a thread about using 87 octane fuel to get rid of some rough idling. People started to talk about how all the old NA RX-7s used 87 octane, and how all the Mazda race cars use 87 octane with their rotaries. This may be nothing but maybe somebody should do a dyno with 87 and 89 octane to see if it makes a difference. If there is no difference then great it could save people some money and possibly help the MPG issue. If its worse then it wasnt my idea. There are more issues covered in the thread about Mazda possibly making the 91 octane recommendation simply because its a status thing. In the manual it states that you can use anything from 87-90. Im thinking that its a possibilty that the 87 octane fuel might make up for some of that missing HP. The thread is here

Gyro

Canzoomer, there was no "problem" with the Miata engine. The HP discrepensy was a marketing blunder. Advertisements were given old "target" HP numbers and never given the actual ones. It was a paperwork mistake on Mazda's marketing department behalf.......thats why they had to "make good" for the 13 HP.

canzoomer

No problem, other than they decided to use a newer emissions spec, and could not make the advertised power figures..

And that differs from what people are reporting on the RX-8 how?

As I said in an earlier message, the dyno numbers people are reporting now are about right if we assume that the engine is actually making around 230PS/228HP. And the UK and Euro RX-8 ( or "888 as it is called in Germany) are advertised with that power level.
I am suggesting that perhaps once again, the Mazda marketing people in US and Canada ( and let's face it Mazda Canada are for most purposes a branch office of Mazda USA) have fallen into the same trap as they did with the 2001 Miata.

The 250HP claim was started over a year ago.
Maybe they now realize that the emmissions spec to meet California and Canada for 2004 ( it IS a 2004 model after all) require them to tune the ECU to newer specs, and that reduces the power to what they are getting in Europe.

As I said before, this is all PURE SPECULATION.
I don't know, you don't know, and until somebody throws and engine on a dyno NOBODY knows, except perhaps some engineers at Mazda, and they are not saying!

If you do not appreciate my speculation on this forum, fair enough, but then I suggest you tell everyone else to stop speculating too, as NONE of us actually know.. This is just a (rather extended) BS session!

Personally I like my 8 just fine, thank you. It has plenty enough "zoom zoom" that I am sure I will be paying my share of photo radar tickets soon enough!

jonalan

True, but more recently updated to 247 hp. This "247" figure had to come from somewhere. Seems like an easy answer for Mazda, but, alas, we wait...

rgonzal3

Make that 238hp, official answer from Mazda

eccles

Yep, 238 for the manual, 197 for the auto. See this thread.

canzoomer

Not quite.

Mazda advertised 250PS, which is EQUIVALENT to 247 HP
250PS is the Japanese claimed power, and they "translated" this into the HP measurement method we use here in North America.

jmanolov

So they "fixed" the horsepower number with less than 10 hp change ?!?! ( 247 -> 238 )

238 hp at the crank -> 180 hp at the wheels ?!? 58 hp drivetrain loss? yeah, right .... Mazda North America are full of crap these days ....

How can a Miata with the same power output as the RX-8 have just 26 hp drivetrain loss .... ?

Skyline Maniac

Well folks, that's Mazda USA for you. I am sort of glad all the bitch'n and moaning we have been doing here for the last month seemed to have paid off. I am quite dissapointed Mazda USA never learned their lesson from the Miata fiasco and managed to let a PR blunder like this happen again. I am equally dissapointed the compensation they offered, which is simply not good enough. Mazda USA only lower the power rating by 9hp to 238hp, which I believe is still over-rated. (Look at the avg 180whp people have been getting on dynos) The way I look at it, if they lied the first time, what's to say their new number can be trusted. For those who don't care about missing 20-30hp, free maintenance is still not enough compensation IMHO.

I have been taking Mazda's claim on the RX-8 with a grain of salt from the beginning because of my past experience with a Millenia S. It is quite depressing that Mazda USA still havn't change their ways of exaggerated advertisements and a history of failed promises. I hope this event will open forum member's eyes to facts and figures presented by various datas, including dyno info, Best Motoring video and magazine reviews. Mazda had years to tinker with the Renesis, I don't buy the story that Mazda did not know about the power deficiency until user dynos started to show up. If you guys have further issues with the RX-8, such as gas milage or engine light trouble, please don't hesitate to make noise and let Mazda know you demand what is promised to you.

So what's going to happen with the MSRP of the RX-8? Is it going to stay the same or will Mazda lower the price due to the obvious false power claim? Also, will Maza inform all dealerships ASAP so that we don't have potential owners picking their brand new RX-8 tomorrow morning not knowing about the power deficiency?

loco4rx8

Skyline, I think all the dealers must know about this right now. I contacted my dealer late this afternooon, and they knew all about it.

I really doubt the dealers will go out of their way to let customers know about this.

Dealer to potential RX-8 buyer:
"Welcome! Have you heard Mazda just dropped the horsepower numbers on the RX-8?" :p

At this point, the info on the website has been changed, so they can always say the info is out there for shoppers. If they are specifically asked about this, they should, and probably will, own up to it.

Skyline Maniac

I believe this is more of a Mazda USA publicity stunt cover up rather than Mazda engineers in Japan lying about the power. I am pretty sure the Renesis can make those 250hp without the emission regulations in the US, but the emission standards in US has been known for years. If Mazda made the claim the RX-8 is a low emission vehicle, then they knew about the exhuast requirements from the beginning. I mentioned this months ago, the RX-8 is not exactly a cleaned machine base on its 250ps JDM spec, yet in the US Mazda claimed it as such to save some $$$ on tax. I suppose they made a decision to stick wit the 250(247)hp knowing full well with the US exhaust requirement the car cannot achieve that rating. Again they get caught, never learned the lesson from the Miata mistake. Look at the Miata case though, Mazda only admited to miniscule power loss even though most owners claim the power loss was more. ? Hmmmm~

*For example, the engine in the 350Z (287hp) and G35 sedan(260hp) are very similar. Most of the difference comes from intake and exhaust design. Would it be fair to omit those intake/exhaust difference and rate the G35 sedan at 287hp?

The fact that European models are rated hontesly tell me only one thing: Mazda Europe is honest while Mazda USA is not. Look at JD Power studies and other auto research to confirm Mazda Japan and Europe tend to finish on the top 1/3 tier when it comes to customer service.

BillK

The "$500 + maintenance" offer is good on cars delivered before Tuesday, 8/26, so I suspect new window stickers with the new HP figures for all the RX-8s are on their way to dealers now (along with, I suspect, new RX-8 brochures or at least stickers for them...)

Mark Booth

I've heard that Mazda underestimated the number of folks that would be asking for a buy back on the 2001 Miatas and I think they've underestimated again. With RX-8s sitting readily available on many dealer's lots (and this whole horsepower issue certainly won't help that), it will only be a matter of time before the discounting starts.

Granted, the RX-8 is a brand new model and it has serious "I'm one of the first to get one" appeal. But I think there will be a fair number of folks that have Mazda buy back their 8s and then turn around and buy another for less money. Especially those that paid a premium over sticker for the first one.

Some folks might even end up with the same car, for less money. That happened with the 2001 Miatas. At least two local fellows returned their car to the dealer (Mazda bought it back) and then a week or two later they repurchased the car at a substantial discount.

Mark

Skyline Maniac

Let's step back for one moment here and look at the full picture.

We have had RX-8 dyno numbers around 175-180whp on the forum in the last month. Mazda took a long time to respond to the allegations probably because they had to put together a legal team. Till this day they have not provided a technical answer to why the power is missing and why the info was not released before the car launched. This type of behavior mirrors a bunch of execs who lied and just got caught. They have found the easy legal way out without compromising too many sales. All they have done is saving themselves from a big law suit in the future. They wouldn't have done so had we not screamed and shout in the last month here. Their recent offer has side tracked our effort and focus to prove the actual power rating and cause of deficiency on the car.

Let me propose a simple question:

HOW DO WE KNOW IF THE RX-8 EVEN HAS 238HP? Seems like most of the owners on the forum are presented with two choices, return or free service. However, how many would choose to keep the car if the power deficit is more than the 9hp they now claim? What if the car only makes 225hp as opposed to 238? This is not about a percentage or engine specs, it's about how much RX-8 fans are willing to be screwed over to keep a car they like.


IMHO, you guys need to stand up as a community and demand a straight answer and technical prof that the RX-8 can demonstrate 238hp because their reputation no longer warrants a simple 'claim' without prof. For those of you who want to keep the car, DEMAND MORE!! Free maintenance, tires, brakes, for 4 years, a check of at least $1500 to do whatever you want with it. Please don't just sit quietly and 'take it' because of your passion for the car. Your action as early owners will likely affect all future buyers, and Mazda's business ethic in the future. Remember, this whole scandal is not to downplay the RX-8 as an automobile, but to send a clear message to Mazda USA as a company. Do not let them get away with it this easy.

Sputnik

The speculation here is a moot point now, closing...

---jps

P.S. Skyline, give it a rest...