canzoomer

I LOVE my RX-8.

I do NOT love Mazda north America however, as I now know they are lying, conniving bastards, who do not deserve our respect or business.

I hoped that with a model like this there would be some tiny effort made to resolve problems by engineering.

Instead they are apparently only interested in using lawyers to solve their problems.

I just shake my head when I read on these forums from people who praise them for the offer.
Talk to a lawyer and you quickly understand that this offer is exactly the minimum needed to prevent people from successfully suing them.

That sucks, IMHO.

I also look at the fact that I paid MSRP on a car that is now diminishing very quickly in resale value, and feel the only safe recourse is to take the buy-back option.

If they had made a more reasonable offer of cash I might have considered it, as I could have used that to bring the car back to spec. But for $500 and maybe $300 in service savings, it is not too likely.
An air cleaner might get us 16hp (claimed by K&N) but at the price of noise, and the hassle of fighting with the dealer and Mazda about warranty when I go for that service. And by installing the K&N I am not going to be using those "free" air cleaners which make up a big part of the "savings" on the service..

Ditto for exhaust, ECU re-mapping, etc.
Just to get back to claimed spec, at the price of noise and warranty support strikes me as unwise.

And, for the next twit who is reading this, with fingers twitching to tell me about the "9HP":

Get real.

BillK

That's what we've been telling you for weeks. So long, choose the buy back, get something else.

And, from the experiences of many Mercedes owners I know, you also get to know your dealer's service department really well. Mercedes reliability is not, let's say, top of their class...

Napboy

BillK,

Why do you insist on putting everyone down that has a different opinion than you. All you seem to post is condescending attitude towards others. Give it a rest, will ya?

Skyline Maniac

Rather amusing to hear a Mazda owner bashing the service department and reliability of other brands.

Blue 350z

LOL, WTF does this mean? You should be around 90+ mph by the top of 3rd. My little brother drives a 1990 Accord 5-Speed and he also can get to 94mph if he floors it before 5th gear :D

TJRX8

And free scheduled Maint. 48/50...

TJRX8

Last I read he doesn't even have an RX8 yet. Has anything changed?

loungeliz

Apologies, skip this post if you want pure RX-8 commentary....

canzoomer, careful about reading too much into the earlier C230 dyno post.

That is a dyno of a 2002 C230, which has a 2.3 litre engine. The 2003+ C230 has a 1.8 litre engine. 2002 = 192hp, 2003/2004 = 189hp. How can an engine with .5 liter less displacement produce only 3hp less? It's due to boost.

2002 C230 engine was really underboosted, thus it is so easy & cheap to boost it up with a simple pulley upgrade. 2003 is not the same case.

So for me with a 2002 model, there is no incentive for me to dump it and go for an RX-8.

If I had no car and was choosing between a 2003/2004 C230 and an RX-8 the choice is even. The "real" HP for the RX-8 is probably only 5 hp more but combined with 300lb lighter, it would not be worth the upgrades to try and make a new C230 perform close or better than an RX-8.

The choice would have to be a personal choice. Which look you you like better and is the AWFUL mileage of the RX-8 enough of a deterrent. The poor mileage of the RX-8 is going to add thousands to the cost of ownership of the RX-8 over comparable cars.

If I take it easy/steady I can even get 40mpg on the highway (6.9l/100km) with my C230. Usually 35mpg in normal highway driving. I presume the 2003 should do even better since it has an engine that is .5 litre smaller and lighter.

TJRX8

First I wasn't referring to all non RX8 posts, just the continuing condescending ones from particular non-owners.

Second, are you kidding us here or what? The C230 ksc is only rated at EPA 21/31 for the 2003. Or are you just trying to make us feel worse (15/18)???

canzoomer

Ah, good to know. Thanks bud.
After some lucid thought I realised the C230 is a bit lightweight on the performance and features.
Then I looked at the (same body) C320 Sport Coupe.
Basically the same car, but stock with the bigger wheels/tires, and that 6 cylinder is not even breathing hard. Has to be some power to spare.
Not often you see torque figures higher than horsepower, let alone over 3K of rev range.
215hp and 221 torque claimed..

Here in Edmonton $42,500 with the Bose, bi-xenon, leather, alarm, etc.
I can't see spending money for that roof, or the power passenger seat.
Tempting.
Had a conversation with an ( anonymous for now) Mazda tech rep today. i am getting feedback they will honour my request for no refund, no free service, just a letter to guarantee they will provide the missing power within a year, or will buy back then.
That offer has rekindled my hope for my 8.

Racer X-8

What's your particular RX-8's performance now? That needs to be documented by dyno testing.

Then when the year is up, subsequent identical dyno testing needs to be done to confirm or deny the presence of the targeted values.

If that can be promised in writing, you got a no-loose deal. That's only fair.

BillK

Actually, I do not own an RX-8 at this point.

I make no claims as to the quality of Mazda's cars one way or another. I merely mentioned that I do know more than a few people who currently own an MB and will never buy another due to the amount of time their vehicles spend at the dealer's service department.

The "grass is always greener," so to speak.

It is not, as has been suggested, an effort on my part to put down anyone that disagrees with me. Rather it's an effort to inject sanity into the discussion.

The bottom line, IMHO, is if the HP issue is such a big deal to you, taking the buyback offer seems like a no-brainer. Same with those who are worried that actual HP will turn out to be 228, or 218, or whatever.

Most people are now through breakin or will be by October 1. Drive the car as you want and decide for yourself if it is sporty enough for you. If not, take the buyback. Seems simple to me...

aussie77

I will qualify my comments by saying my RX-8 hasn't come in yet, so what I will say comes only from my two test drives.

That said, last weekend I test-drove two cars. The 200 hp Acura RSX Type-S and the Mazda RX-8. The RSX weighs 2767 lbs, the RX-8 comes in at 3029 lbs (just pulling the weight numbers from yahoo autos).

Now I have to say the RX-8 felt much more powerful to me in my two test drives. I had a chance to open both cars up a bit on some back roads that were fairly straight, and the difference was noticable despite the very smooth acceleration of the RX-8. The RSX v-tech kicks in and the acceleration is obvious. But of the two the RX-8 definitely seemed more powerful and faster.

Now go figure that the RSX is quite a bit lighter, and I don't know how much faith I then put in Dynos. I mean they are essentially a benchmark, but nothing more than that. Dyno all the cars you want, but isn't it the real performance numbers that are important? 0-60 times, slalom times, 1/4 mile times, stopping distances?

loungeliz

Nope I'm not kidding. In my experience with cars me and my wife have owned I usually can get better HWY than EPA and just slightly worse than City for my driving (except for my RX-7).

It is difficult to compare one's city driving vs another persons city as the conditions vary so much. For me my "bad" city results are from living and working within a major city. ie. I could probably ride my bike to work in the same time it takes me to drive to work. Who knows, biking might even be faster... but certainly less "comfortable"

HWY also has some variability for comparison, as speeds, elevation, etc still vary. But they should be comparable. ie. If I say the best I can do is 40mpg. I assume if someone in an RX-8 tries their best, they will be cruising on the highway (ie. not rush hour), no excessive speeding, drive in highest gear, etc.

Southern Ontario is fairly flat, hwy speed limits are 100km/h(approx 62mph), but when there is no traffic, speeds are in excess of that. If I drive 110-115km/hr max + easy cruising in 6th gear, I can get my mileage up to 40mpg. I little more speed and 35mpg is usual.

From my experience with my 1982 RX-7, the mileage was also awful. I don't recall exactly what it was as it has been a long time, but I recall a conversation with a co-worker who had a V8 mustang at the time. We got very similar mileage. It sounds like the same holds true today and perhaps the RX-8 even has worse real world mileage than a current V8 Mustang.

Poor mileage and emissions was the achilles heel for the rotary engine. Mazda has solved the emissions, sounds like mileage issues are still to be solved.

Lets just hope Iraq oil comes on stream soon, or we're headed to $40 oil per barrel and gas guzzlers are not going to sell well. My heart is with the rotary engine and I want Mazda to succeed, but they still have some work cut out...

ggreen29

I gotta side with BillK on this one. Canzoomer has been one of the most ineffectual whiners in quite awhile, and seems to relish his misery. He's done almost nothing other than whine on this forum, he's rallied no allies, gathered no team of lawyers, petitions, press briefs, etc. Alot of sour talk with no effective action.

canzoomer

Really?
OK, calling Mazda Canada, posting what they say, testing and reporting what my car does, and abiding by the handful of "I like my car so it is OK, even if it came with less engine, less warranty, and guzzles gas like a freight train" is "whining" ?

Fine.
I suppose, however that YOU have DONE something here?

Go get one, see for yourself when it is YOUR money on the line, and we will see what your story is then.

We seem to be divided into 6 categories here:

1) Got my car, love it, don't care if it is short of spec.
2) Got my car, not so happy about it. Taking the buyout offer.
3) Got my car, fairly happy about it, pissed off about being misled, and perhaps lied to. (This is my group)
4) Looking at buying an 8, deciding if I want to buy it or not.
5) Don't own one, probably can't afford one, just here because I want one. Don't enjoy my dream being crushed, and resent people who are not happy about it.
6) Got one, am bailing and no longer post and read forums (gone).

Guess which one you fit into?

moto_monkey

MB builds some great quality cars, but the good ones seem to be at higher price points than most of us could even consider. I don't own an MB, looked at a used E for my wife a year ago, but decided that an Altima 3.0 SE would be a better long term purchase, since it would be new. It's been a great reliable car so far.

The reason we didn't go with the used MB were mostly subjective. I really liked the car, my wife didn't like the MB image (we become one of them). But the issue in my head was Damler's acquisition of Chrysler. When they did this, they assumed I believe close to $10Bil in debt. They started the acquisition process with surplus revenue (they had been a cash rich company).

Well, that $10Bil has to be made up in profits. Profits come from car sales, less car, more built in profit to close the gap....

I read in either CAR or EVO, can't remember which, about initial quality ratings. The metric was number of problems per 100 cars sold. The average was over 100, I think the number was around 120. MB was higher, can't remember the number, but I definitely remember it was more problems than average. Top quality was ... Lexus. They had less than 100 problems per 100 cars sold. Don't know exactly what the definition of "problem" was.

My humble opinion is that MB is not the company they were a couple decades ago. They have a great reputation for quality, but the collected data doesn't support that.

Cheers,

Monkey

ChurchAutoTest

The RX-8 puts down about 10% more power on my dyno than an RSX (189 vs. 172). Additionally, its torque peak is about 12% higher and comes on much sooner than the RSX's (which is kind of a double peaked torque curve).

I would expect the RX-8 to be faster off the line thanks to RWD and a bit faster on a roll as speed climbs since it shouldn't have any more aero drag than an RSX, but has more power. Overall it has more area under the curve (the RX8 that is).

Tha magazine numbers would seem to support that. The RSX usually traps around 93-94 mph in the quarter mile while the RX8 seems to be in the 95-96 range with the limited data we have so far.

SC

revhappy

The RSX-S is 262 lbs lighter and about 300 lbs. lighter if you take the spare out (as most RX8's won't have the accessory spare and tools). Thus, its about 9.5 % and 11% lighter based on these two measures.

I'm not sure if the dyno's take gearing into account or not, but if not, then that would be an interesting variable to look at.

aussie77

The weight difference is exactly my points. People are ranting about the 8 having what appears to only be 210 hp or so. But if it is 300 lbs heavier, and only has 10 extra hp, how could it be faster? Riddle me that

TinkySD

I'm an "acura guy" but it's true that the rx8 has higher gearing which is going to increase the torque to the wheels.(dynos are done in the 1:1 gear) Do you have a dyno of the 189hp rx8? I'll i've seen are like 170-180 which is nearly identical to what stock rsx-s put down.(a little higher in each which will be accentuated by the better gearing) The best indicator of performance is time slips and in that department rsx-s user are getting nearly identical slips to those with rx8s. Low 15s to high 14s stock.

As a side note the rsx-s get huge gains from an engine reflash. It smooths out the torque curve so it's esentially flat 2000rpms to redline. A BPU rsx-s can run with a s2k. Here is a dyno from the company hondata which has been duplicated by users.




12-20 peak wheel hp from a stock RSX depending on the dyno and modifications.
15-20 ft/lb torque increase between 2500-3500 rpm.
Peak torque now at 3200 rpm on an unmodified RSX.
Very flat smooth torque curve. 95% of peak torque available from 2500-8000 rpm.
Rev limiter optionally raised to 8600 RPM (see valve spring tech information).
VTEC point lowered to 5200 rpm for cars with intake systems.
Passes Californian smog testing (no measurable difference from stock).
Fully dealer compatible - works with all Honda scan tools and equipment

SomberGuy

I heard about the RX-8 announcement at the Tokyo autoshow and I immediately contacted my dealer to put my money down, probably before anyone else in the country. This was in December of 2001.

I am currently driving my 3rd RX-7 in a row and I haven't even owned a non Mazda rotary car in well over a decade. I love Mazda rotary engines and I jumped at the opportunity to get another one, especially a brand new one. When I saw the specs on the car and found out that the car was going to be available in the Spring of 2003 I was overjoyed. I read and knew all about the Carbon Fiber drive train components and how efficient it was supposed to be. I wanted to be the first person in town to own one, I wanted to drive my new sports car all summer.

I have never been willing to buy any car that was brand new, but I was more that willing to buy THIS car brand new.

I had no problem waiting until (what was supposed to be) the beginning of August instead of Spring so that I could get the color that I wanted (yellow). I had no problem when I found out the Navigation system wouldn't have maps for Edmonton for at least another 6 months. I had no problem when my dealer said that I'd be getting $500.00 and free service for 3 years from Mazda Canada, for what was described as a slight drop of around 9 horsepower.

After waiting the better part of 2 years from the time I put my money down to the time of delivery, (Wednesday of this week) my dealer smacked my car into concrete pillar. This was about an hour before I was supposed to come pick up my car. When I heard about this, I was dumbfounded and numb.

This pretty much burst the bubble on the new car. Summer is just about over, and will be over by the time this car is fixed. I'm not the first guy on the street with one, not by a long shot. I was not going to pay full list price for a broken and fixed car to only park it in my garage for the next 6 months waiting for Spring thaw. My honeymoon with the car I'd spent years waiting for was over before it even began.

To the dealers credit, I had no problems walking away from the deal. They agreed to refund my registration expenses without a flinch.

And now I find this forum, and find out that the RX-8, as it is currently configured, is really down over 20 HP, the engine falls down 2000 RPM before it's reported peak power point, and it is a gas guzzler to boot. (I'm just looking at the data posted here. No one has posted any numbers to the contrary, only subjective comments about how the car feels fast enough for them or that the car meets the gas millage when they drive slower than grandma).

I feel that by some divine intervention I dodged a bullet when the poor guy at the dealership hit that pillar. I'm going to plan B. You all can be the first to own and drive the RX-8.

I'm going to wait a while. Maybe there will be a bunch of cheap buyback models available soon. Maybe by next year, Mazda will have fixed the engine problems. Maybe in 2 years I'll buy one used and save a boatload on depreciation. Maybe in a couple years Mazda will be selling a model with a turbocharger/supercharger. Whatever happens, I'll still drive a Mazda rotary powered car and I'll own an RX-8 in the near future.

I don't want to own THIS RX-8 new.

ChurchAutoTest

Actually, by my estimates the RX8 is putting down 217-220 hp. It weighs less than 10% more than an RSX. Additionally, it has a superior torque curve = more area under the curve.

From a dead stop, RWD should be faster. On the roll, its about power, weight and drag. At higher speeds, drag matters more than weight. Thus, from 0-60 the RX-8 should launch harder and get ahead, and then at higher speeds, it should pull harder thanks to a better power/drag ratio.

In the grand scheme of things though, if you look at 1/4 mile trap speeds (which largely ignore the traction differences between FWD and RWD), the RX-8 is trapping 1-2 mph faster than an RSX, which seems about right to me for its power advantage.

SC

Kafka

I think we were comparing to a RWD sportscar like S2k before....now we're talking about "better" than a RSX-S...

kinda sad...
________
Triumph Tiger

ChurchAutoTest

I try and stay out of the subjective judgements.

In the grand scheme of things though, the RX8 is priced between an RSX-S and an S2000, so IMO there's nothing demeaning to the RX8 in making such comparisons.

Heck, the RX8 does so many different things and has such a unique combination of characteristics (4 doors, coupe shape, RWD, high revving powerplant, 6spd, low cost, etc.), you can probably legitimately compare it to more cars than just about anything else on the market.

SC