Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)
10-01-2012, 08:30 AM
#52
What should I do with used antifreeze that I remove from my radiator? Can I just pour it down the drain or the sewer in the street?
Never pour used antifreeze down the drain or in the street. Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are toxic. Used antifreeze also picks up heavy metals like lead during use in the engine. These should not be released to the environment. Properly dispose of used antifreeze at an appropriate collection center.
Antifreeze Recycling FAQ
Never pour used antifreeze down the drain or in the street. Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are toxic. Used antifreeze also picks up heavy metals like lead during use in the engine. These should not be released to the environment. Properly dispose of used antifreeze at an appropriate collection center.
Antifreeze Recycling FAQ
10-01-2012, 08:36 AM
#53
I drain all of mine in a decent sized bucket and then pour it into the empty distilled water jugs I use. Put some duct tape over top of the cap to make sure it never comes off and take to to a local Sears or somewhere else near that recycles the coolant.
10-01-2012, 08:42 AM
#55
You might want to check with your local municipality about recycling centers. Mine has one and it's free for residents up to a certain weight/volume for things like coolant/oil.
Last edited by RotoRocket; 10-01-2012 at 08:46 AM.
10-01-2012, 08:58 AM
#56
Even if you used only distilled water you still have to take into account contaminants from all materials (engine, water pump, radiator, hoses) that get mixed into it in overtime. Probably not a huge deal (hell in the country side growing up with no recycle place any where nearby we'd just dump it in the ditch) but in all technicalities you will never truly have uncontaminated water for dumping down the drain per se.
10-01-2012, 03:43 PM
#60
Registered
I got my answer. The stuff I've used does contain 2-EHA (but neither silicates, borates or phosphates).
Curiously, the Halfords re-branded stuff isn't exactly the same as the Comma G30, as they said specifically that that does not contain 2-EHA.
So does anyone have any conclusive answer on whether the coolant seals in the RX-8 contain silicon, or shall I play safe and change my coolant... again.
Curiously, the Halfords re-branded stuff isn't exactly the same as the Comma G30, as they said specifically that that does not contain 2-EHA.
So does anyone have any conclusive answer on whether the coolant seals in the RX-8 contain silicon, or shall I play safe and change my coolant... again.
10-01-2012, 04:50 PM
#61
I started this thread with the best of intentions, but not enough information to have stated as confident, simplistic and conclusive-sounding indictment of 2-EHA as I did.
It still may turn out that 2-EHA can be harmful to some gaskets and seals, but whether it's really 2-EH/2-EHA or the design of the motor, lack of maintenance of the cooling system, or even other ingredients (sebacate, carboxyl or other organic acids, all found in OAT and HOAT coolants which comprise 90% of the coolant market) that cause problems is still debatable.
The more research one does in this area, the more it's revealed:
1) how incredibly divided people are over this issue,
2) how coolant manufacturers add to the confusion as to what's in their products by hiding behind "proprietary inhibitors" in their MSDS,
3) how the pendulum swings back & forth on the whole issue of 2-EHA or any of the organic acids, as some automakers, like Ford, are going with BOTH 2-EHA coolants in some new vehicles, and some non-2EHA coolants in other new vehicles.
4) how confusing the makers of Japanese spec'd coolant (like CCI and Ashland-- i.e. Zerex) are making things when they state not to use 2-EHA coolant, yet there's some factory fill coolant used by them that many have speculated contains either 2-EH or 2-EH, and some that definitely contains sebacate (Toyota's red or pink coolant contains sebacate and another organic acid), which pretty much have the same behavior as 2-EHA.
5) how the 2-EHA (and sebacate) ingredients are great at preventing corrosion for a much longer time period than the silicates found in the old school "green" coolant, and may have been falsely accused of the problems associated with Dexcool use in GM vehicles, when in fact, it could be argued that improper design of many components in GM's 3.1, 3.4 and 3.5 liter motors were the real cause of the coolant system problems that maligned Dexcool, and not any of the ingredients in Dexcool itself.
Regarding #5, I spoke with a tech at Peak (aka Old World Industries, and which makes many branded coolants besides Peak), which makes both 2-EHA and non 2-EHA coolants, and he told me that they extensively test all their coolants, with some motors running as many as 600,000 miles on the same fill (heavy duty coolant made for diesel motors, ironically enough containing 2-EHA), and there were zero coolant system related failures in that motor (Peak Fleet Charge ran in a motor for the equivalent of 1.2 million miles, and it's documented). He also said that the fact that 2-EHA universal coolants are so predominate at chain stores isn't just because they're less expensive to purchase than alternatives, but more "foolproof" for the average consumer, and that they've refined the levels of organic acids to the point where gasket and seal wear is a rare to non-existent problem (and that Japanese makers who object to 2-EHA did so as a result of the mid 90's problems with Dexcool, which had other ingredients like sebacate, as well, and which was far different in composition than it is today).
Is he correct? I don't know.
What we need is the opinion of competent chemists/chemical engineers to achieve a reliable and credible statement on the true impact of certain ingredients/inhibitors contained in OAT and 2nd Generation HOAT & P-OAT coolants.
It still may turn out that 2-EHA can be harmful to some gaskets and seals, but whether it's really 2-EH/2-EHA or the design of the motor, lack of maintenance of the cooling system, or even other ingredients (sebacate, carboxyl or other organic acids, all found in OAT and HOAT coolants which comprise 90% of the coolant market) that cause problems is still debatable.
The more research one does in this area, the more it's revealed:
1) how incredibly divided people are over this issue,
2) how coolant manufacturers add to the confusion as to what's in their products by hiding behind "proprietary inhibitors" in their MSDS,
3) how the pendulum swings back & forth on the whole issue of 2-EHA or any of the organic acids, as some automakers, like Ford, are going with BOTH 2-EHA coolants in some new vehicles, and some non-2EHA coolants in other new vehicles.
4) how confusing the makers of Japanese spec'd coolant (like CCI and Ashland-- i.e. Zerex) are making things when they state not to use 2-EHA coolant, yet there's some factory fill coolant used by them that many have speculated contains either 2-EH or 2-EH, and some that definitely contains sebacate (Toyota's red or pink coolant contains sebacate and another organic acid), which pretty much have the same behavior as 2-EHA.
5) how the 2-EHA (and sebacate) ingredients are great at preventing corrosion for a much longer time period than the silicates found in the old school "green" coolant, and may have been falsely accused of the problems associated with Dexcool use in GM vehicles, when in fact, it could be argued that improper design of many components in GM's 3.1, 3.4 and 3.5 liter motors were the real cause of the coolant system problems that maligned Dexcool, and not any of the ingredients in Dexcool itself.
Regarding #5, I spoke with a tech at Peak (aka Old World Industries, and which makes many branded coolants besides Peak), which makes both 2-EHA and non 2-EHA coolants, and he told me that they extensively test all their coolants, with some motors running as many as 600,000 miles on the same fill (heavy duty coolant made for diesel motors, ironically enough containing 2-EHA), and there were zero coolant system related failures in that motor (Peak Fleet Charge ran in a motor for the equivalent of 1.2 million miles, and it's documented). He also said that the fact that 2-EHA universal coolants are so predominate at chain stores isn't just because they're less expensive to purchase than alternatives, but more "foolproof" for the average consumer, and that they've refined the levels of organic acids to the point where gasket and seal wear is a rare to non-existent problem (and that Japanese makers who object to 2-EHA did so as a result of the mid 90's problems with Dexcool, which had other ingredients like sebacate, as well, and which was far different in composition than it is today).
Is he correct? I don't know.
What we need is the opinion of competent chemists/chemical engineers to achieve a reliable and credible statement on the true impact of certain ingredients/inhibitors contained in OAT and 2nd Generation HOAT & P-OAT coolants.
Last edited by RotoRocket; 10-01-2012 at 04:58 PM.
10-01-2012, 06:25 PM
#63
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RotoRocket,
I think you are mostly driving yourself in circles when you forget the key point at the bottom that Mazda's FL-22 appears to meet every good point you were trying to make. The mess gets started when you start trying to compare other fluids. Is it still sufficient? Is others not sufficient? That is where things get murky.
But for once, I think where you started out with the thread was correct, and Mazda's FL-22 is almost certainly our best bet. If something else comes along that matches it, then it may be worthwhile to make known, but trying to figure everything else out when we have what seems to be a clear answer with FL-22, I'd say we should just stick with that.
Probably the only time I will say that Mazda's selection is ideal
I think you are mostly driving yourself in circles when you forget the key point at the bottom that Mazda's FL-22 appears to meet every good point you were trying to make. The mess gets started when you start trying to compare other fluids. Is it still sufficient? Is others not sufficient? That is where things get murky.
But for once, I think where you started out with the thread was correct, and Mazda's FL-22 is almost certainly our best bet. If something else comes along that matches it, then it may be worthwhile to make known, but trying to figure everything else out when we have what seems to be a clear answer with FL-22, I'd say we should just stick with that.
Probably the only time I will say that Mazda's selection is ideal
10-01-2012, 08:34 PM
#64
RotoRocket,
I think you are mostly driving yourself in circles when you forget the key point at the bottom that Mazda's FL-22 appears to meet every good point you were trying to make. The mess gets started when you start trying to compare other fluids. Is it still sufficient? Is others not sufficient? That is where things get murky.
But for once, I think where you started out with the thread was correct, and Mazda's FL-22 is almost certainly our best bet. If something else comes along that matches it, then it may be worthwhile to make known, but trying to figure everything else out when we have what seems to be a clear answer with FL-22, I'd say we should just stick with that.
Probably the only time I will say that Mazda's selection is ideal
I think you are mostly driving yourself in circles when you forget the key point at the bottom that Mazda's FL-22 appears to meet every good point you were trying to make. The mess gets started when you start trying to compare other fluids. Is it still sufficient? Is others not sufficient? That is where things get murky.
But for once, I think where you started out with the thread was correct, and Mazda's FL-22 is almost certainly our best bet. If something else comes along that matches it, then it may be worthwhile to make known, but trying to figure everything else out when we have what seems to be a clear answer with FL-22, I'd say we should just stick with that.
Probably the only time I will say that Mazda's selection is ideal
The only significant point that would call that choice into doubt is if a high % of coolant issues (especially ones affecting the motor) surfaced and they were using FL22, which no one except Mazda and their dealer network having such data.
10-02-2012, 05:55 AM
#66
Registered
Ouch, that is expensive. I guess it sucks that it's sold in gallon containers for you guys, as 2 is not quite enough, so you have to get 3 and have a lot left over.
Over this side of the pond FL-22 is sold in 5 litre premixed containers, which I can buy for £10 each (exc. tax) from an independent web site specialising in MX-5/Miata parts. That equates to about $12 per US gallon. So I can do a complete fill for only $32.
I think I've decided to leave my 2-EHA-containing OAT coolant in until I get my annual service done sometime in late November. Pretty sure it's not gonna ruin my seals in just a couple of months...
Over this side of the pond FL-22 is sold in 5 litre premixed containers, which I can buy for £10 each (exc. tax) from an independent web site specialising in MX-5/Miata parts. That equates to about $12 per US gallon. So I can do a complete fill for only $32.
I think I've decided to leave my 2-EHA-containing OAT coolant in until I get my annual service done sometime in late November. Pretty sure it's not gonna ruin my seals in just a couple of months...
10-02-2012, 06:43 AM
#67
The 'worser' part of pre-diluted is that if you flush the system with distilled water before refilling, there might be enough water left over after draining to pull the final fill concentration down quite a bit. This will certainly happen if you don't drain the water jacket by removing the plug on the intermediate iron. To do that and not make a huge mess, you have to drop the undertray which is kindof a PIA.
10-02-2012, 03:27 PM
#69
But you're correct.
10-03-2012, 08:21 AM
#70
paimon, you did mention that earlier, and for whatever reason, my brain keeps defaulting to the Motorcraft Specialty Green. I think that's possibly because the employee at the first Mazda dealer part's department I called about this claimed they only had pre-mixed, and that he "wasn't aware of any full concentrate FL22."
But you're correct.
But you're correct.
10-03-2012, 12:36 PM
#71
Question; if we had a silicone eating coolant, would it show up in a used oil analysis? I know the two systems should be separate, but perhaps there could be some bleed over with the silicone eat EH chemicals.
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10-03-2012, 02:54 PM
#74
It took me a lot of time and research to discover this, but although Peak (Old World Industries) labels Peak Global as "2-EH" free, they refuse to disclose what organic acids they do use in it (their MSDS states "proprietary inhibitors").
I think this is disingenuous of them, since others do disclose their specific inhibitors on their MSDS, and especially since Peak is voluntarily yelling "2-EH Free!!!" as a sales tactic.
Toyota Super Long Life Coolant, which many Toyota owners swear by, contains sebacic acid (sebacates), which is the other 1/2 of the organic acid formula in the original Dexcool, as do many others ( along with carboxylic acid, benzoic acid, etc.).
The relevant point is that the organic acids, whether 2-EH/2-EHA, sebacic acid, nitrated carboxylic acid, etc., all have similar properties.
I'd like to see a study that specifically demonstrates 2-EH is more aggressive towards silicone gaskets/seals than other organic acids, and I'd like to see Peak release the specific inhibitors it uses in its Global coolant.
Edit- Right now I am torn between Mazda FL22/Motorcraft Specialty Green and Zerex Asian Vehicle (both in full concentrate form).
I am nearly certain Zerex Asian Vehicle is almost, if not exactly, the same thing as FL22. It's advertised as "Compatible with Asian coolants and cooling systems. Silicate Free, Phosphated HOAT Chemistry," which is precisely what FL22 is.
Some claim Napa stocked it in full concentrate for around $11/gallon, but as far as I know, it's only available in 50/50 pre-mix, but at $10 a gallon, this is still cheaper than the FL22/Motorcraft Equiv.
Here's the MSDS on it which is encouraging:
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_asian_vehicle.pdf
Last edited by RotoRocket; 10-03-2012 at 03:22 PM.
10-03-2012, 07:46 PM
#75
Well, we all know how dexcool turned out, not gonna bother explain it
Hmm, its hard to find the global stuff thats 100%, i did see some 50/50.global at my local bp for 11 bux a gallon. NOw im looking for alternatives, the beck & arnley stuff seems ok, but is it really the bad acid free? it just said it works, cant find the msdc
Hmm, its hard to find the global stuff thats 100%, i did see some 50/50.global at my local bp for 11 bux a gallon. NOw im looking for alternatives, the beck & arnley stuff seems ok, but is it really the bad acid free? it just said it works, cant find the msdc