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Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)

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Issue Many Are Ignoring: Most Coolants Contain 2-EHA (which 'eats' silicone)

Old 09-28-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WTBRotary! View Post
Good find. Lol. With these engines we have to be more than careful...
Indeed. And perhaps the '06 change is a partial explaination for coolant seal failures in the 04/05 models. Perhaps too, the plastic-softening properties of 2-ETA come into play with coolant bottle failures and the tendancy of hoses to "weld" themselves to the plastic nipples on our radiators.



This issue may warrant a few lines in RIWWP's new owner's thread too.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFlite999 View Post
Based on the no-phosphate content of FL-22, I'd waste another $3 and do a fill and drain with distilled water before final filling. Phosphate helps counter hard (mineral-filled) water from the tap.
Yep...agreed.

In fact, it's my opinion that it's better to even do a pure water fill after draining the old coolant, warm the motor (even drive it a bit), drain, and then repeat, to ensure as much as the old coolant is removed.

The pressurized flush machines are supposed to more efficiently accomplish this, and they use citrate-based cleansers with these machines to allegedly help dissolve deposits and build-up that a flush alone won't accomplish. Whether this really works that well or not, I do not know.

I spoke with a tech at one of the major companies that makes a lot of the coolants (chain store brand names and even manufacturer-branded ones), and he was extremely knowledgeable, and needless to say, the Dexcool issue is complicated.

One thing he mentioned that struck me is that many people would do well to make sure their radiator cap, which is a $8 to $12 part, is sealing properly, on a regular basis, and if not, it's money well spent to replace it with a new one, since air introduction into the coolant system is one of the main things that degrades the inhibitors & additives, and that can even alter the acidity (change the ph) of the coolant. Good advice!
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:50 PM
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FYI, I was just told by a tech friend (Ford dealer) that at least two Mazda dealers in my area no longer use the flush machines for coolant changes. He said they use the old school method, but wasn't told the official reason why.

Not sure if true or not, and I would never pay the dealership rate for a coolant change anyways (just my .02).
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:08 PM
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so my dealership not only stocked on FL22, but also the concentrated stuff (under the name Long Life Coolant as opposed to FL22's Extended Long Life Coolant). Just to be sure I double checked the chemical makeup and they were similar (none of the acid crap)
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by paimon.soror View Post
so my dealership not only stocked on FL22, but also the concentrated stuff (under the name Long Life Coolant as opposed to FL22's Extended Long Life Coolant). Just to be sure I double checked the chemical makeup and they were similar (none of the acid crap)
The existing FL22 that Mazda is using is all concentrated as is, and is a 2nd generation HOAT (hybrid organic acid technology). In other words, you must add distilled water to it. So, if you were striving for a 50/50 coolant-to-water mix, 1 Gallon of FL22 = 2 Gallons of coolant. If I'm wrong, someone let me know.

Also, Motorcraft Specialty Green Engine Coolant VC-10-A2 is the exact same thing as Mazda's FL22 (Motorcraft Specialty Green VC-10-A1 is the premixed stuff), and can be usually purchased for $5 to $7 less per gallon than Mazda FL22.

I've also found that dealers vary widely in price. Mazda dealers are charging anywhere from $23.xx to $30.xx per gallon of FL22 in my area, while Ford dealers are charging anywhere from $21.xx t0 $27.xx.

Peak Global Lifetime is good stuff, IMO, as it meets the ethyl glycol base requirement of Mazda, and has NO silicates nor borates (and it doesn't contain 2-EHA, either).

Last edited by RotoRocket; 09-28-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 09-28-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket View Post
The existing FL22 that Mazda is using is all concentrated as is, and is a 2nd generation HOAT (hybrid organic acid technology). In other words, you must add distilled water to it. So, if you were striving for a 50/50 coolant-to-water mix, 1 Gallon of FL22 = 2 Gallons of coolant. If I'm wrong, someone let me know..

huh? the FL22 coolant from mazda is already a 55/45 mix
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by paimon.soror View Post
huh? the FL22 coolant from mazda is already a 55/45 mix
Ahhhh, I stand corrected. You are right.

I've been trying to digest way too much information too quickly.

The Motorcraft Specialty Green coolant (Ford re-labelled FL22) is probably the same, then?
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Old 09-28-2012, 11:22 PM
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I've been thinking about the coolant issue more and more with each passing day, and I've begun to wonder what cause & effect correlation, if any, there's been regarding catastrophic motor failures and coolant seepage/migration into areas it was never meant to travel.

I am aware of the age old adage that correlation does not equal causation, but does anyone have any relevant information to relay regarding the role that coolant may possibly played in the failure (whether compression or otherwise) of a rotary?
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:22 AM
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Hmmm a GM product that doesn't work!? Say it ain't so!
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Old 09-29-2012, 01:15 PM
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Just before my old engine was replaced by a new reman, I had begun noticing my coolant levels were dropping very fast and I was sure I didn't have a leak. My compression numbers were falling and the rear rotor had lower numbers probably due to coolant heat and consumption maybe. I was using cheap stuff...
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Old 09-29-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Emery_ View Post
Just before my old engine was replaced by a new reman, I had begun noticing my coolant levels were dropping very fast and I was sure I didn't have a leak. My compression numbers were falling and the rear rotor had lower numbers probably due to coolant heat and consumption maybe. I was using cheap stuff...
Boom!

Just like that, we have our first anecdote from a long-standing member.

That's what I'm talking about!

I wonder what Takashi Yamanouchi's R&D crew and the other über-engineers over at Hiroshima have to say about this whole issue.
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:35 PM
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we will never know.
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
we will never know.
Probably, there are just way too many things involving engine failure; owner care, driving conditions, driving style, environmental conditions, damage to other important parts, types of fluids used, premix non premix, gas type used... And it goes on. I owned my car for only about 8k miles until I got a compression test, and there you go low compression. Thankfully I was under warranty, but I already knew that from the start. That's why getting a compression test on a rx8 before buying it is so important, more so if the car is no longer under warranty.

I have no idea how the previous owner drove the car, maintained it, or what fluids they used... For all I know they could have used the cheapest coolant and hence why my engine was consuming coolant. Maybe the silicone seals had been worn out by the coolant and high heat, but it's all speculation. I'll never really know, only Mazda who got my reman could possibly determine the reason for my engine failure.
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Old 09-29-2012, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFlite999 View Post
Indeed. And perhaps the '06 change is a partial explaination for coolant seal failures in the 04/05 models. Perhaps too, the plastic-softening properties of 2-ETA come into play with coolant bottle failures and the tendancy of hoses to "weld" themselves to the plastic nipples on our radiators.



This issue may warrant a few lines in RIWWP's new owner's thread too.
After a week or 2 i flushed the coolant and use Prestone, my coolant bottle sensor fails.
Not sure if its just a coincidence.
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Old 09-29-2012, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HiFlite999 View Post
This issue may warrant a few lines in RIWWP's new owner's thread too.
100% agree. Great info here! More than just few lines will be added. I think all of this is going to be pretty critical.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:14 AM
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I've been doing some more research, and the plot thickens.

Honestly, I've never come across a more confusing, convoluted topic dealing with maintenance fluids than coolant (motor oil doesn't even come close to this level of absolute insanity).

I will really make this short, and allow everyone to do their own research, b/c I'm don't even know what is what.

What I do know:

Japanese automakers recommend a HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) coolant, which is essentially a 2nd generation OAT one. By the way, Dexcool was the original Organic Acid Technology coolant, and OAT was introduced as a means of getting a longer life from coolants - the organic acid, whether benzoates, sebecates or 2-EH/2-EHA would act as a long term corrosion inhibitor, and this would allow for the reduction of the silicates (or removal altogether) that we knew in the "old school green" coolant, with those silicates doing an excellent job of corrosion prevention, but only for 2 years max, before they would no longer be suspended in the coolant, or "fallout," and do things like clog the water pump and leave white, scaly buildup and gunk everywhere.

Since so many people failed to stay on top of the frequent coolant changes with "old school green" high silicate coolant, manufacturers were seeing a lot of major damage to motors and radiators and other components while the vehicles were still under warranty, and they did not like this.

Hence the birth of Organic Acid Technology, low or no silicates coolant.

What the Japanese automakers want in their coolants is:

1) NO silicates.

2) NO borates (not low borates, but NO borates, just like the silicates).

3) They DO WANT phospates (Japanese makers WANT phospates in the coolant, as this has something to do with the type of water prevalent in Japan, which has to do with corrosion prevention), and

4) NO, NADA, ZERO 2-EHA or 2-EH (this gets tricky; see below as to why).


Okay, so the Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru Factory Fill and branded coolants meet these requirements, except that Honda's coolant apparently may not contain the phospates desired under number 3 above (?). Some claim Honda coolant just doesn't contain phospates, while others claim it does (?). I don't have a definitive answer as to who is correct.

Also, Zerex's "Asian Coolant" meets all these requirements. It's made by Ashland Chemical, which is one of the biggest companies making many different labeled coolants, oils and other fluids.

Now for the tricky part. CCI is a company that makes a LOT of the Japanese OE coolants, under the various Japanese automaker labels (including, I believe, Mazda's FL22).

As an example of how tricky this gets, let's take Toyota's red-colored extended life coolant sold under Toyota's own name at their dealers: It definitely does not contain 2-EHA nor 2-EH (even this gets tricky; are these the same, and are some coolants that claim that they have "no 2-EH" such as Peak GLOBAL engaging in trickery, because they actually do have 2-EHA while only stating they don't have 2-EH??), BUT the Toyota label long-life coolant DOES contain sebacates!

Sebacates are another form of organic acids, similar to 2-EH and 2-EHA, and in fact, were one of the main organic acids composing - da da! The original version of DEX-COOL (back in 1995 when it was introduced, and when the sludging and eating-of-LIMs-and-gaskets-issue-surfaced).

Not only did the original DEX-COOL that was so hated and despised have sebacates, but it was believed by many and STILL IS that sebacates are just as bad, IF NOT MORE SO, than 2-EH or 2-EHA, regarding silicone gaskets, hoses and other rubber/silicone parts, as sebacate is known to degrade silicone and rubber.

And for the final mind-cluster bomb? Many coolants that are HOATS, advertising that they are either and/or both 2-EH and 2-EHA free, and that have phosphates (which is required by Japanese manufacturers), often have MSDS sheets that do not specifically list WHICH organic acid they contain, instead choosing to list them under as "proprietary inhibitors."

They list these as "proprietary" for the ostensible reason that they don't want competitors to know what additive packages they're using as anti-corrosive, but this allows them to hide what could be some frowned upon ingredients from public view (intentionally or coincidentally).

SO, that's what I know. The more I learn, the more of a total cluster this all becomes.

Last edited by RotoRocket; 09-30-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:56 AM
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This thread makes me nervous. Just a month ago I flushed and re-filled my cooling system with an OAT coolant...

The stuff I got is a ready-mixed own-brand sold by one of the major motor-accessory stores here in the UK (Halfords). Advertised as "silicate free" and "compatible with all vehicle manufacturer's colours". It also has a bunch of manufacturer approvals from Audi, Ford, GM, VW, Chrysler, etc.

I found that it is actually manufactured by a well-known oil company here (Comma), and from the info on their website I suspect it is the same as (or very similar to) their own X-Stream G30 product. Interestingly, their G30 itself is promoted as being based on BASF's Glysantin G30 formulation, which claims suitability for all Mazda vehicles.

I have sent them an email to find out whether it contains 2-EHA; but, until I get a negatory reply, it makes me wish I'd been prepared to wait the week it would have taken for some FL-22 to be delivered.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket View Post
Also, Zerex's "Asian Coolant" meets all these requirements. It's made by Ashland Chemical, which is one of the biggest companies making many different labeled coolants, oils and other fluids.

Now for the tricky part. CCI is a company that makes a LOT of the Japanese OE coolants, under the various Japanese automaker labels (including, I believe, Mazda's FL22).
i think all the OEM's have their coolants mixed in the US, same reason a lot of beers are brewed here, liquid is expensive to ship.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:39 AM
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I'm going to go with Motorcraft Specialty Green VC-10-A2, because it's the same thing as Mazda FL22 and is a 2nd gen HOAT coolant.

It's actually 50% less than FL22, despite that it's a full concentrate (so 1 gallon equals two gallons of Mazda's FL22 since the FL22 is pre-mixed).

Peak GLOBAL (made by Old World Industries) claims it is "2-EH Free," but doesn't claim that it's "2-EHA Free" (call me paranoid or justifiably skeptical). Even if it's both 2-EH and 2-EHA "Free," Peak doesn't list what organic acid(s) they use on their MSDS, instead claiming it's "proprietary." So, it could be anything AFAIC.

This coolant **** has gotten waaaaay too complicated.
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:51 AM
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One thing I'm worried about;
"Use only when specified. Do not use this product in systems originally equipped with any green-colored, conventional engine coolant such as Motorcraft® Premium Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification ESE-M97B44-A, or with the yellow-colored, longer-life Motorcraft® Premium Gold Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B51-A1, or with any orange-colored, extended-life engine coolant such as Motorcraft® Specialty Orange Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B44-D"

Would this be a problem for us? Would a really good coolant flush negate this if it was a problem?
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Beodude View Post
One thing I'm worried about;
"Use only when specified. Do not use this product in systems originally equipped with any green-colored, conventional engine coolant such as Motorcraft® Premium Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification ESE-M97B44-A, or with the yellow-colored, longer-life Motorcraft® Premium Gold Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B51-A1, or with any orange-colored, extended-life engine coolant such as Motorcraft® Specialty Orange Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B44-D"

Would this be a problem for us? Would a really good coolant flush negate this if it was a problem?
Those are good questions, and here's my take, FWIW:

A complete flush (whereby the system is burped, flushes with distilled water are used until clear, mostly clean h2o comes out, and possibly a citrate based cleaner is used (depending on one's predisposition to those), should ideally be done whenever replacing coolant, period, and especially when switching over to a different one in composition.

As for the recommendation against using Specialty Green (the really dark green, FL22 type coolant) in systems that were factory filled with Motorcraft® Premium Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification ESE-M97B44-A, that's because the latter is essentially "old school" green, with a relatively high additive packet of silicates, good for two years, and the former is silicate-free, instead being a HOAT. There could also be a risk of sludge-ing/gelling if the two are mixed in significant degree, and there'd definitely be a dilutive affect that would weaken the additives in the former if full flush was done.

The same is true if the vehicle was factory filled with Motorcraft® Premium Gold Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B51-A1, or with any orange-colored, extended-life engine coolant such as Motorcraft® Specialty Orange Engine Coolant, meeting Ford Specification WSS-M97B44-D", but for different reasons.

The Premium Gold is essentially a Zerex G-05 type clone, while the Specialty Orange is a OAT (and dexclone), rather than a HOAT. So the dilutive affect from both the Gold and Orange residual in the system on the Specialty Green HOAT definitely remain, as does maybe the risk of sludge-ing/gelling?
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Old 10-01-2012, 08:40 AM
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worst part about doing a flush = finding storage containers for all the drained coolant / contaminated water lol

spent the weekend doing 3 total flushes of water. (Drain, Fill, Run car until thermostat kicks, let run for a bit, car off, cool down a bit, repeat). Then filled up with FL22. My FL22 concentration is a bit lower than stated on the bottle since a significant amount of water stays in the lines/engine when you do a drain. I guess we will see if I have any issues come winter time with freezing water.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by paimon.soror View Post
worst part about doing a flush = finding storage containers for all the drained coolant / contaminated water lol

spent the weekend doing 3 total flushes of water. (Drain, Fill, Run car until thermostat kicks, let run for a bit, car off, cool down a bit, repeat). Then filled up with FL22. My FL22 concentration is a bit lower than stated on the bottle since a significant amount of water stays in the lines/engine when you do a drain. I guess we will see if I have any issues come winter time with freezing water.
You're probably okay especially if you had a factory fill of FL22 (denoted by sticker and on radiator cap).

FL22 actually has a genuinely long lifespan (conservatively 4 years-- many who are **** about maintenance still won't wait that long, though), and if did have FL22 factory fill, you can always top it off with some Motorcraft Specialty Green VC-10-A2 which is exactly the same as FL22 but is a concentrate (not pre-diluted).
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:23 AM
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yea like i said in a previous post i had put prestone in when i installed my gauges a few years back. glad I am back on FL22 after reading this stuff.
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Old 10-01-2012, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by paimon.soror View Post
worst part about doing a flush = finding storage containers for all the drained coolant / contaminated water lol
its my understanding that since coolant is alcohol based it can be poured down a drain unlike oils.
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