Flooding issue
10-06-2003, 11:14 PM
#26
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Hey, I hope I didn't come across as offensive!
By all means, the more knowledge you have the better. Glad the dealer could look at it, and I feel for you on the weekday thing.
My dealer wants the car for 2 days during the weekday just to test for the oil light when in high gears going downhill. We agreed on a Saturday, but it was like pulling teeth with them.
By all means, the more knowledge you have the better. Glad the dealer could look at it, and I feel for you on the weekday thing.
My dealer wants the car for 2 days during the weekday just to test for the oil light when in high gears going downhill. We agreed on a Saturday, but it was like pulling teeth with them.
10-07-2003, 12:27 AM
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A silly question, enlighten me please.
Let say, I've driven the car for 20min(it should very warm up by then). I'm on my way back home and need to pick up some, let say bread, from a grocery store just 2-3 block away from my apartment. So, I stop by, OFF the engine, in and out of the grocery store with-in a minute or 2, back to the car, TURN the engine up again just to drive 2-3 block to the apartment.
As the car has already warmed up, that short drive would not cause the flooding issue right?
cheers
Let say, I've driven the car for 20min(it should very warm up by then). I'm on my way back home and need to pick up some, let say bread, from a grocery store just 2-3 block away from my apartment. So, I stop by, OFF the engine, in and out of the grocery store with-in a minute or 2, back to the car, TURN the engine up again just to drive 2-3 block to the apartment.
As the car has already warmed up, that short drive would not cause the flooding issue right?
cheers
10-07-2003, 06:06 AM
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wow
2 hours
did you have any gas left
2 hours
did you have any gas left
10-07-2003, 09:06 AM
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syntrix,
you are vindicated!
called the dealer today for an update. They said Mazda is flying some engineers in on Thursday to take a look at the car- they are interested in gathering some data. Hmmmm. So one simple flooding issue will have my car out two weeks! I miss it- they put me in a Grand Am- not exactly the same feeling.
In any case, some thoughts: the tank or two before the flooding I started getting worse mileage with the same driving style (<180 miles/ tank from ~200 miles/ tank.) Also, I noticed some hestitation as I tried to accelerate at times. Things had been different even before the flooding. Perhaps the plugs are just really really dirty?
Mazda won't let my dealer touch my car- they want their engineers to look at first. Wish us all luck!
you are vindicated!
called the dealer today for an update. They said Mazda is flying some engineers in on Thursday to take a look at the car- they are interested in gathering some data. Hmmmm. So one simple flooding issue will have my car out two weeks! I miss it- they put me in a Grand Am- not exactly the same feeling.
In any case, some thoughts: the tank or two before the flooding I started getting worse mileage with the same driving style (<180 miles/ tank from ~200 miles/ tank.) Also, I noticed some hestitation as I tried to accelerate at times. Things had been different even before the flooding. Perhaps the plugs are just really really dirty?
Mazda won't let my dealer touch my car- they want their engineers to look at first. Wish us all luck!
10-09-2003, 05:40 PM
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well the Japanese engineers are in town looking at my car. The dealer called as the engineers had questions: how did the car drive before it wouldn't start, how long is my daily commute, etc etc.
Said they should know more tomorrow. Hopefully my pain will help Mazda improve the engine!
Said they should know more tomorrow. Hopefully my pain will help Mazda improve the engine!
10-10-2003, 02:39 PM
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here's the outcome: Mazda engineers want my engine for analysis!
http://www.rx-8forum.com/showthread....threadid=12559
http://www.rx-8forum.com/showthread....threadid=12559
10-11-2003, 10:10 AM
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Flooding
I just got my car back from the dealer. They had it for 3 days. Tried to start the car, sounded like it was flooded. Called roadstide assistance and got the car towed. The tow truck driver said "Funny, this is a third one of these I've towed", then "Don't worry, Mazda can fix it" I call the dealer, he is like "you flooded it, and your the ninth person we have in here since we started selling them".
Found out later on that the battery cable was loose which may have contributed to the problem. It was the problem on most of the nine cars the dealer had to repair.
So you may want to check those battery cables.
Found out later on that the battery cable was loose which may have contributed to the problem. It was the problem on most of the nine cars the dealer had to repair.
So you may want to check those battery cables.
10-11-2003, 11:06 AM
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Re: Flooding
Hi myrx8, could you please help me with these:
What/How does a flooded rotary sounds like? Could you help to elaborate a little, so one would know how to react if their engine is flooded.
Did they(Mazda) explain why/how a loose battery cable would cause the flooding issue?
Many thanks.
Originally posted by myrx8
Tried to start the car, sounded like it was flooded.
Tried to start the car, sounded like it was flooded.
Originally posted by myrx8
Found out later on that the battery cable was loose which may have contributed to the problem.
So you may want to check those battery cables.
Found out later on that the battery cable was loose which may have contributed to the problem.
So you may want to check those battery cables.
Many thanks.
10-11-2003, 07:12 PM
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Okay I said I wouldn't give my explanation of flooding causes again since there are people convinced that they are versed with rotaries stating that modern rotaries flooding is a myth.
All rotaries inherently run the risk of this but especially fuel injected ones. I've seen it with the GSL-SEs right up to the 95RX-7s. Brand new or with high miles( it's much worse with the old high mileage ones)
The reasons are these:
Rotary engines have relatively low static compression.
Rotor speeds are slow compared to e-shaft speed.
The worst combustion shape(area of flame propagation.)
So this is how this works.Starting is not their favorite thing.Most of the fuel systems have fuel remaining at the rail under pressure(in order to prevent vapor lock in hot climates.)The management systems don't know the difference between 100rpm and 300 cranking rpm and do not differentiate injector duty cycles for either.When the car is sufficently cold the watertemp sending unit tells the PCM. If the battery is not fully charged "tada" no start.
If you have great compression and state of tune(plugs etc) with a weak battery you are at risk.If you have any of these parts of this equation not at it's optimum operating condition you are at risk.
Please, if you don't have vast experience with these cars(either owning or working on them) don't attack my assessment.I don't know everything but these have been my observations.
All rotaries inherently run the risk of this but especially fuel injected ones. I've seen it with the GSL-SEs right up to the 95RX-7s. Brand new or with high miles( it's much worse with the old high mileage ones)
The reasons are these:
Rotary engines have relatively low static compression.
Rotor speeds are slow compared to e-shaft speed.
The worst combustion shape(area of flame propagation.)
So this is how this works.Starting is not their favorite thing.Most of the fuel systems have fuel remaining at the rail under pressure(in order to prevent vapor lock in hot climates.)The management systems don't know the difference between 100rpm and 300 cranking rpm and do not differentiate injector duty cycles for either.When the car is sufficently cold the watertemp sending unit tells the PCM. If the battery is not fully charged "tada" no start.
If you have great compression and state of tune(plugs etc) with a weak battery you are at risk.If you have any of these parts of this equation not at it's optimum operating condition you are at risk.
Please, if you don't have vast experience with these cars(either owning or working on them) don't attack my assessment.I don't know everything but these have been my observations.
10-13-2003, 10:34 PM
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Did they(Mazda) explain why/how a loose battery cable would cause the flooding issue?
Many thanks.
The dealer said that because the cable was loose, it may not have given enough juice to start the engine, ehich would have caused me to give it a little gas when it didn't need it.
When its flooded, its jus the starter trying to turn over.
Many thanks.
The dealer said that because the cable was loose, it may not have given enough juice to start the engine, ehich would have caused me to give it a little gas when it didn't need it.
When its flooded, its jus the starter trying to turn over.
10-14-2003, 02:45 PM
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A few bits of info:
Never touch the accelerator when starting. Flooring it after it has already started to flood only makes the problem worse.
On the old carburated 12A engines, you could pour a little bit of clean engine oil into the carburator, a few ounces at most, and that would take care of the problem by mixing with the puddle of gasoline sitting at the bottom of your engine. Your car will smoke like crazy until the oil is burned off, so do this outside if at all possible. You may be able to reproduce this trick on the RX-8 if you pull your trailing spark plugs and pour the oil directly into the engine. I suggest having the dealer pick it up instead.
Never touch the accelerator when starting. Flooring it after it has already started to flood only makes the problem worse.
On the old carburated 12A engines, you could pour a little bit of clean engine oil into the carburator, a few ounces at most, and that would take care of the problem by mixing with the puddle of gasoline sitting at the bottom of your engine. Your car will smoke like crazy until the oil is burned off, so do this outside if at all possible. You may be able to reproduce this trick on the RX-8 if you pull your trailing spark plugs and pour the oil directly into the engine. I suggest having the dealer pick it up instead.
10-20-2003, 12:27 PM
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I started mine this morning to head to work...started backing out of the garage, and it just died (nope...I didn't stall it, etc...). Now it won't crank, and I had it towed to the dealer.
Sure enough, they said it was flooded (probably from me trying to crank it a couple of times after it died), and as a matter of fact, they had another one towed to the dealership today after mine for the same problem!!! They recommended allowing the car to warm up from a cold start, which I will certainly do from this point forward!
Crap, crap, crap , crap, crap!!
And FYI...the owners manual says to push the pedal all the way to the floor, and crank for 10 secs if you think the car is flooded. Then crank for 10 secs without the pedal depressed if this doesn't work.
Sure enough, they said it was flooded (probably from me trying to crank it a couple of times after it died), and as a matter of fact, they had another one towed to the dealership today after mine for the same problem!!! They recommended allowing the car to warm up from a cold start, which I will certainly do from this point forward!
Crap, crap, crap , crap, crap!!
And FYI...the owners manual says to push the pedal all the way to the floor, and crank for 10 secs if you think the car is flooded. Then crank for 10 secs without the pedal depressed if this doesn't work.
10-20-2003, 12:36 PM
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My dealer didn't think much of the hold the pedal down and crank it. I got the impression that he thinks this just makes it worse. Thinking about I can't see how it would help either. Next time it happens to me I am removing the fuel injector relay and then cranking it.
10-20-2003, 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by LL7
My dealer didn't think much of the hold the pedal down and crank it. I got the impression that he thinks this just makes it worse. Thinking about I can't see how it would help either. Next time it happens to me I am removing the fuel injector relay and then cranking it.
My dealer didn't think much of the hold the pedal down and crank it. I got the impression that he thinks this just makes it worse. Thinking about I can't see how it would help either. Next time it happens to me I am removing the fuel injector relay and then cranking it.
10-20-2003, 10:11 PM
#46
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Originally posted by miata2rx8
it seens interesting that all of these flooded cars are happening now about the same time
it seens interesting that all of these flooded cars are happening now about the same time
I don't understand. The car has normal compression and any excess fuel will be purged out the exhaust ports.
If they are ignited, then it's even easier to purge it all out.
I don't see how this differes than a normal engine, even when the FI system will shut the delivery of fuel off if the engine is not spinning.
Go figure! If I have problems, I'm gonna be bitchin' right here, but I have none of the problems with short startups.
I have multiple just warming up my extra wideband O2 sensor, and doing just a wot at idle run many many many many times.
Hmmmmppphphphphthtphtphthtph.
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