Engine mechanics please help. Unbelievable renesis failure
07-08-2013, 06:50 PM
#26
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If I understood that correctly, the only responses I have are to these points:
I don't believe there is anything the ECU can do to affect the bearings, positive or negative.
Too low of octane would have shatted seals and produced a failure somewhat like this:
Again, it wouldn't have caused a bearing failure.
Your points failed to mention the oil lines from the engine to the oil coolers, or the oil coolers themselves. Even a thorough washing of them will almost certainly leave metal inside if there was metal floating through the oil system from the first failure.
The reason we keep going back to that is because if everything is fine between the bearing surfaces and oil is present, you simply will not get scoring on the bearing like that. Something foreign was present between the two surfaces. If you insist that there could not have possibly been oil debris from the last failure sitting in the oil coolers, then you will have to supply the answer of where that foreign debris came from. And oil is the only liquid that flows through there, so if it wasn't in the oil system then it was physically left there during reassembly.
You can find documents like this all over the web:
http://amsperformance.com/instructio...%20failure.pdf
Since the original failure was a bearing failure, and you acknowledge that there was metal debris present, then I believe that this certainly applies here.
You changed the engine, but not the oil lines and coolers.
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's a pretty logical conclusion to me.
Too low of octane would have shatted seals and produced a failure somewhat like this:
Again, it wouldn't have caused a bearing failure.
The reason we keep going back to that is because if everything is fine between the bearing surfaces and oil is present, you simply will not get scoring on the bearing like that. Something foreign was present between the two surfaces. If you insist that there could not have possibly been oil debris from the last failure sitting in the oil coolers, then you will have to supply the answer of where that foreign debris came from. And oil is the only liquid that flows through there, so if it wasn't in the oil system then it was physically left there during reassembly.
You can find documents like this all over the web:
http://amsperformance.com/instructio...%20failure.pdf
If you have had an engine failure such as a spun bearing or any other failure your ENTIRE oiling system has been contaminated with metal shavings. Metal debris from engine failures will RUIN your new engine! Most items can be cleaned out such as the oil pan etc… but you CANNOT clean out your oil cooler enough to be re-used. No amount of cleaning will get all of the debris out. Please perform the following steps when installing your new engine:
1. Replace the engine oil cooler: This is the most important step of all. Oil coolers CANNOT be flushed out completely. You can never get all of the debris out of the internal fins of the oil cooler.
1. Replace the engine oil cooler: This is the most important step of all. Oil coolers CANNOT be flushed out completely. You can never get all of the debris out of the internal fins of the oil cooler.
You changed the engine, but not the oil lines and coolers.
Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's a pretty logical conclusion to me.
07-08-2013, 07:40 PM
#28
there was an catastrophic failure and if you want to reuse the coolers, at least have it professionally cleaned. not just spray air into it with compressed air and said it's cleaned.
if it's me I just gonna get brand new coolers and lines,
or at least get some used cooler that's NOT from a car with similar failures, and I will STILL send it off for cleaning b4 using it.
same car, new engine, same failure. you guys f-ed it up.
if it's me I just gonna get brand new coolers and lines,
or at least get some used cooler that's NOT from a car with similar failures, and I will STILL send it off for cleaning b4 using it.
same car, new engine, same failure. you guys f-ed it up.
07-08-2013, 09:19 PM
#29
It is a little difficult with the language barrier, but I think we can work around that.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions without knowing a bit more. I've seen too many weird things happen after service events, and as a profession, I do parts investigations, material analysis, fatigue and parts failure studies, vehicle history and service event studies to determine root cause of a failure on rotor systems. So, this is right up my alley.
Anything left over in the coolers would first have to be returned to the pan, then then passed through the oil filter, whether it was in bypass or not. If it was stuck in by-pass, or in by-pass at any time, then large debris would be let through at any oil pressure.
Question...what debris was in the 1st oil filter, and what debris was in the 2nd oil filter, and what was in the oil pan on either one? Were either of the oil filters stuck in by-pass when you looked at them?
And, I did see where you have a 180 degree bearing material transfer to the e-shaft on both, which suggests a balance issue. But, first you have to figure out if the out-of-balance condition that caused that material transfer was the primary fail mode, or was it consequential damage to another failure. The first e-shaft was so bad it cracked along the axis of rotation, which suggests a severe out of balance condition, not torsional (or sudden stop) type of stress fracture.
We need pictures of each housing, oil filter/sump debris info, and pictures of every other bearing from the engine. Otherwise, we're really just jumping to a conclusion.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions without knowing a bit more. I've seen too many weird things happen after service events, and as a profession, I do parts investigations, material analysis, fatigue and parts failure studies, vehicle history and service event studies to determine root cause of a failure on rotor systems. So, this is right up my alley.
Anything left over in the coolers would first have to be returned to the pan, then then passed through the oil filter, whether it was in bypass or not. If it was stuck in by-pass, or in by-pass at any time, then large debris would be let through at any oil pressure.
Question...what debris was in the 1st oil filter, and what debris was in the 2nd oil filter, and what was in the oil pan on either one? Were either of the oil filters stuck in by-pass when you looked at them?
And, I did see where you have a 180 degree bearing material transfer to the e-shaft on both, which suggests a balance issue. But, first you have to figure out if the out-of-balance condition that caused that material transfer was the primary fail mode, or was it consequential damage to another failure. The first e-shaft was so bad it cracked along the axis of rotation, which suggests a severe out of balance condition, not torsional (or sudden stop) type of stress fracture.
We need pictures of each housing, oil filter/sump debris info, and pictures of every other bearing from the engine. Otherwise, we're really just jumping to a conclusion.
Last edited by MikeTyson8MyKids; 07-08-2013 at 09:22 PM.
07-09-2013, 05:59 AM
#30
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People once again... If you put on one site compresed air mix with cleaning petrol to car oil line and copresed it from one to another site until you see clean petrol there is no posiabilyty that something is still in there. Only air is not enought to clean coolers.
Mike went good path. And he is right that even if there was still some parts of old bearing oil filter should stop it. Never mind this is 100% not the oil way problem.
MikeTyson8MyKids nice deduction I think that U can help us !! I try to make some pictures and put them tu album. I don`t think that I can cut the filters because they propobly in trash.
When we oponed second engine our first deduction was about balance issue but gearbox look fine and I don`t think that counter weighf or flywheel could be broken ;/ Most propobly thing that mayby cluth some how but I didn`t check it yet.
I think consequential...
This is realy intresting problem huh ??
Mike went good path. And he is right that even if there was still some parts of old bearing oil filter should stop it. Never mind this is 100% not the oil way problem.
MikeTyson8MyKids nice deduction I think that U can help us !! I try to make some pictures and put them tu album. I don`t think that I can cut the filters because they propobly in trash.
When we oponed second engine our first deduction was about balance issue but gearbox look fine and I don`t think that counter weighf or flywheel could be broken ;/ Most propobly thing that mayby cluth some how but I didn`t check it yet.
But, first you have to figure out if the out-of-balance condition that caused that material transfer was the primary fail mode, or was it consequential damage to another failure.
This is realy intresting problem huh ??
07-09-2013, 08:31 AM
#34
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Carbon8 U were rude for me so I can be rude for U a bit 
I know my English isn`t perfect of near to perfect but is enought to comunicate. Sure that for me would be better to speak in Polish but ... I bet U don`t know Polish :P
I read your forum in my free time but I don`t have time to write. Writing in English about tech things isn`t so easy. Next thing that I have my owne forum and I`m admin/mod and all in one so + my knowleg and experience make that I sacrifice for Polish users in our national forum.
www.rxklub.pl if U want to lookin. I hope no one will punish me that I write another forum adres ;P
I specifically pointed out that I want to talk with mechanics because all obvious reasons of failur were excluded.
10.08.2013r. We meet in Track Poznań so maybe I`ll ask some usert to put a some pictures and few words about. Lets don`t make OT.
P.S. I know I`m new here and my language is a bit sharp so I`ll try to be polite with my words
In about 6-8h I`ll put more pic`s.
I know my English isn`t perfect of near to perfect but is enought to comunicate. Sure that for me would be better to speak in Polish but ... I bet U don`t know Polish :PI read your forum in my free time but I don`t have time to write. Writing in English about tech things isn`t so easy. Next thing that I have my owne forum and I`m admin/mod and all in one so + my knowleg and experience make that I sacrifice for Polish users in our national forum.
www.rxklub.pl if U want to lookin. I hope no one will punish me that I write another forum adres ;P
I specifically pointed out that I want to talk with mechanics because all obvious reasons of failur were excluded.
10.08.2013r. We meet in Track Poznań so maybe I`ll ask some usert to put a some pictures and few words about. Lets don`t make OT.
P.S. I know I`m new here and my language is a bit sharp so I`ll try to be polite with my words
In about 6-8h I`ll put more pic`s.
07-09-2013, 08:40 AM
#35
yeah, the amount of members here that know anything and are also mechanics (by career) is slim to none.
The people who know the most are the weekend warriors and some that don't even own 8's
Its apparent this was a fluke case, we can all sit here and whine about whose fault and what went wrong (IMO I am going with an oil problem as well, no other reason those bearings would be trashed unless they where just dry) Its also noted the nothing under 90 octane should be used as it creates detonation.
I would be more worried about building it again, using new parts.
The people who know the most are the weekend warriors and some that don't even own 8's
Its apparent this was a fluke case, we can all sit here and whine about whose fault and what went wrong (IMO I am going with an oil problem as well, no other reason those bearings would be trashed unless they where just dry) Its also noted the nothing under 90 octane should be used as it creates detonation.
I would be more worried about building it again, using new parts.
07-09-2013, 08:55 AM
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Think about it in other way. The car have some speed and there is some engine speed. Oil system is 100% ok. On one rotor you put some force from outsite witch gently slows the rotor but shaft has his energy from another rotor and wheels... What will happend ? Rotor want to go in one direction, shaft pulls it in other? Betwen them is bearing... What happened is wery simply for me I just dont know why and where from was that force.
Another topic is that workshops all around the world aren`t so willing to share their knowledge. (I don`t know is it properly write ;P) This also applies to our workshop. Rebuilding this engines properli cost a lot of destroyed engines and a lot of nights with problems like this. I know there is no problem to do this in home garage but when problem like this apers it cost 3 or 4 times more than new engine from ASO. Our friend some time ago same engine rebuild 3 times ago because he said that he must do it by him self ofcourse good for him that he make it.
P.S. I watch your topic. There is no need to write on rotors F and R... If U know how to recognize them On the edges there are cuts witch are directionaly with rotor spining direction.
Another topic is that workshops all around the world aren`t so willing to share their knowledge. (I don`t know is it properly write ;P) This also applies to our workshop. Rebuilding this engines properli cost a lot of destroyed engines and a lot of nights with problems like this. I know there is no problem to do this in home garage but when problem like this apers it cost 3 or 4 times more than new engine from ASO. Our friend some time ago same engine rebuild 3 times ago because he said that he must do it by him self
ofcourse good for him that he make it.P.S. I watch your topic. There is no need to write on rotors F and R... If U know how to recognize them
On the edges there are cuts witch are directionaly with rotor spining direction.
07-09-2013, 09:11 AM
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We are all trying to help. The oil lines having debris in them is a VERY reasonable diagnosis. Try to hear us out we all have many different experiences. I myself had a engine failure due to debris in my oil cooler on my 79 Rx7. So yes it is possible. I had different damage than yours but the old 12a is quite a bit different than the Renesis as far as I know. I've never torn into one but I do know for a fact the damage done to my engine was from a similar problem.
07-09-2013, 09:19 AM
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The only way for that kind of damage to happen is a foreign object or lack of oil or both. If everything was lubricated properly that can not happen. Unless the engine is wildly out of balance, and in that case the owner should of noticed a nasty vibration. Can you ask the owner exactly what they felt right before engine failure?
07-09-2013, 10:39 AM
#39
it is a bad idea to reject theory without evidence
yes there is, it has happened twice.
then how do you explain this engine? the front rotor bearing is the last one to get oil, so if there is an oil supply problem, that or the front main will be the first to show it
yes. there is a problem with something that gets used for both engines, since there is a lubrication system failure, it is logical to look at the lubrication system first.
1. There is no possibility to kill only one bearing
2. There is no possibility to kill bearing in 500km
Please remember that we are talking about two different engines destroy same way in one car after 1000km from day that the car was buy and 600km after rebuild.
07-09-2013, 10:59 AM
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j9fd3s
Please don`t humiliate your self.
There were no failure in lubrication system. Look on the pictures don`t U see that both of shafts, besides of one place look ok? Rest of bearing also.
If some one also think that lubrication system make that engine failure just live it for your self and dont write it in here. Im open for any sugestion even if U think it was UFO but dont write about lubrication system please.
the front rotor bearing is the last one to get oil
since there is a lubrication system failure
If some one also think that lubrication system make that engine failure just live it for your self and dont write it in here. Im open for any sugestion even if U think it was UFO but dont write about lubrication system please.
07-09-2013, 12:08 PM
#42
Seems that from all your experience has blinded you to the fact that you are still human and therefore still capable of making an error. Obviously you don't know what caused the failure, but you are 100% certain you know what it wasn't.
07-09-2013, 01:06 PM
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J9fd3s is right, it would have to be something the two engines shared. If you want to reject our theories then I'm going to reject the theory that you know what you are talking about. Almost everyone agrees. It's got to be the lubrication system.
And why would you be so rude to people trying to help you? In this country that's a good way to make everyone say "not my problem" and walk away.
And why would you be so rude to people trying to help you? In this country that's a good way to make everyone say "not my problem" and walk away.
07-09-2013, 07:18 PM
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Ok guys Im gratefull for your help but if I open 10 or 20 or 50 engines with oil failure and all look the same then why sudenly one look diferent?
Here U have new album:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...kU&usp=sharing
First U have pic`s of two shafts witch I found from engines witch has oil failure. Look at them they are destroyed every where and all around.
Then from pic P1040905.JPG we have shaft from 1st engine. Its craked only on 1/8 of his surface. Of course rest of surface is a little bit destroyed too but its obwious because when bearing spins out oil presure went down for some time when engine still was able to work.
From pic P1040929.JPG U have second shaft. In my opinion look almost the sam as first one. Little bit less destroyed propobly because when engine sound has changed user stop and call a trailer.
PIC P1040931.JPG Compared oil problem shaft with shaft from second engine.
Then there are pics of rotor houseing and plate from second destroyed engine. Next the rotor. Today I wash him a little bit and it shows that his sides are seriously scratched. Realy funy way on the tops.
After washing I put half of engine together but without apex seals. I spin him a bit but I didn`t notice any worrying things ;/
Only thing witch stays from old engine was rotor houseing. And now question is it posiable that lets say in result of material fatigue he change his dimensions when he get warm? Im planing tu put him to warm oil to check this. What do U think about it? Rotor was scratched on the tops so if he was hiting houseing surface he could make presure on the shaft. In this moment for me it is the best explanation of this situation. But problem is that first rotor wasnt scratched ;/
Im open to all your opinions but oil line with no explanation why first rotor and why two times does not appeal to me. Especially that every single time when it was obvious that engine was working without oil or with low presure shafts were like on first pictures.
Here U have new album:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...kU&usp=sharing
First U have pic`s of two shafts witch I found from engines witch has oil failure. Look at them they are destroyed every where and all around.
Then from pic P1040905.JPG we have shaft from 1st engine. Its craked only on 1/8 of his surface. Of course rest of surface is a little bit destroyed too but its obwious because when bearing spins out oil presure went down for some time when engine still was able to work.
From pic P1040929.JPG U have second shaft. In my opinion look almost the sam as first one. Little bit less destroyed propobly because when engine sound has changed user stop and call a trailer.
PIC P1040931.JPG Compared oil problem shaft with shaft from second engine.
Then there are pics of rotor houseing and plate from second destroyed engine. Next the rotor. Today I wash him a little bit and it shows that his sides are seriously scratched. Realy funy way on the tops.
After washing I put half of engine together but without apex seals. I spin him a bit but I didn`t notice any worrying things ;/
Only thing witch stays from old engine was rotor houseing. And now question is it posiable that lets say in result of material fatigue he change his dimensions when he get warm? Im planing tu put him to warm oil to check this. What do U think about it? Rotor was scratched on the tops so if he was hiting houseing surface he could make presure on the shaft. In this moment for me it is the best explanation of this situation. But problem is that first rotor wasnt scratched ;/
Im open to all your opinions but oil line with no explanation why first rotor and why two times does not appeal to me. Especially that every single time when it was obvious that engine was working without oil or with low presure shafts were like on first pictures.
07-09-2013, 07:44 PM
#48
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Once when I was working in this workshop we didn`t bolt properly this thing:
It was tightened only by hand. After start I drove this car about 300km every thing was ok customer was driving that car for over a month and after about 1000-2000km engine die. It was our mistake on of us cleaned the plate to asembly another took and didn`t checked tightening and engine fail. In that case customer was driving mad now customer drive gently and had make only 600km. With 100% good oil pump, oil presure and maybe as U all say some **** from clean coolers or I don`t know form where...
