Engine mechanics please help. Unbelievable renesis failure
 

Hi!
Im new on this forum because in Poland we have our own big forum but I hope I`ll share my knowlage in future.
I`m a friend of the owner of I think one of the biggest rotary workshop in Europe. Some time ago I just to work for this workshop as a mechanic but now I have other work but the owner i still my friend. Thet for start now the problem:

Some time ago to his workshop came a customer with broken engine. Car had 40 000km on gauges. After disassembling the engine it showns that the first rotor bearing was in terrible shape it spins in a rotor. Shaft also was broken, rest of a motor looks like it has thous 40 000km so he thought thah owner didn`t check the engine oil and drove some time without it. User said that it could be posible. I dont want to write a book here but we are talking about workshop witch rebuild over 200 renesis engines so we saw a lot!!
Pics of engine:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GT...hQAkbv0w=w1600
Shaft was broken only on first rotor and only on half of circuit!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g6...TSzAk9rA=w1600
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9-...I8164K_Q=w1600
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/g5...R3dX4Qyg=w1600

Here is rotor without bearing:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/vh...Gdx4MaOQ=w1600

After that new engine was build from:
site housings - from other engine
Rotor housings from old engine (was in good condition)
shaft - from other engine
rotors - from other engine
all seals brand new
all bearings all new
Oil pomp new
Oil coolers cleand



After rebuild like allways every thing was ok. Customer took the car and drove home. After 600km when he was driving to work shop for oil change the car broke...

My friend from work shop called me for help because it didn`t happend erlier that brand new engine 600km after rebuild broke.

We open the engine and look what we saw!!

Shaft:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/d4...w5tMPfhg=w1600

Rotor:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/YP...ehGsEC2A=w1600

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Bh...k553Owlw=w1600

Bearing:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Pw...pmidleUg=w1600


LOOK FAMILIAR ??

Look at this!:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/c7...e4AD_QZg=w1600

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/6c...-tGYy-TA=w1600

Here is full album of pics:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...m8&usp=sharing

So after 40 000km engine die and next brand new engine after 600km die in the sam way !! How can it be posiable?? Customer claim that every thin for all this 600km was ok and when he drove hiway sudenly engine change his sound and the car stops!! This failure is very unusual! In our opinion there is something wrong out site of the engine witch kill the engine but what can it be?? Please help us!! We are afraid to build new engine and put it in a car because it can be the same situation ;/

Please send link to this topic to workshops witch U know maybe somebody has the same problem ;/ Owner of the car is mad and the situation has red prioryty ;)

Any sugestions please send on:
kajakwawa@o2.pl

P.S. Sorry for my English, I hope somebody can help us ;)

Was a new oil pump fitted with the second engine ?

Moved to Tech for some better visibility to the thread.

I'd guess that there was metal in the oil system that wasn't properly cleaned out. Any shredded metal from the previous failure would probably be sitting in the oil coolers, fire up the new engine and it starts recirculating and damaging things all over again. Not a common problem with the rotary, but it's a common concern on failed piston engines, especially ones that spin a bearing.

Ofcourse

I can`t move it yet because I`m new user and I don`t have 10 posts ;P I don`t wanted to do fast plastic post because I`m admin of Polish rotary forum and I know how annoying they are. If admin or moderator can than please do that ;)

There is no posiabylity that somethong stays in oil system every thing is allway clean before new engine go to the car. Second thing is that every other 3 bearings are still almost new!! This shit didn`t happend because of oil system failure. Ther must be some force from unknown source with pull rotor to shaft so fard that the bearing spin out in rotor. Second strange thing is that in that second engine in broken rotor 2 apex was still ok only one was pull into the rotor and destroyed like in this pic:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/no...WsrQjxyQ=w1600

Every on who I know who can asembly rotary engine after long talk by phone say same thing. Magic man, or this is fucking strange but I don`t have any ide what happend ;/ We have 10 years of practice with thouse engines and when we see that we looked on this and on us and on shafts and on us and every one has the same face look... :eek:

Hey guys wake up ;) Any sugestions??
We are in very hurry because its sumerr and every one wants to drive... the customer to ;)

Next importat thing is that this first engine broke up 1000km after customer buy the car. The car is 2006, 40 000 in very good shape and condition and he buy this car for very low money... ;/ We dont know any spec of car storry but it maybe that car didn`t kill just two engines ;]

Rebuild it again, only this time try to do it right.
Check the OMP and the internal oil system as well.

bse50 don`t be rude! OMP was from another engine and the oil pump as well. All parts was checked. If U are so smart tell me what happend? Why 3 bearings are ok and one spin out? How can it happend that after 500km there is no one bearing ;/ And why only one top of the rotor was destroyed? Specify questions and please specify ansewears!

Wow such a big forum an almost 2 days after I post the problem and no respons ;/

Part of it is that it was the weekend, part of it is that is that when you run into strange issues that are not easily answered, it make take some time to find someone that has run into it.

This might be a stretch but could it be extremely out of time? Or maybe a blocked oil line causing minimal if any oil injection?

That looks like localized oil starvation, but if you are 100% sure there is no debris blocking oil paths, then possibly a balance issue? That might explain the damage to just one of the 3 rotors tips.

Or, something amiss with assembly?

looks like some sort of oil related failures to me.

but twice ... something clogged somewhere.

Actually, if you can take some really focused pictures of the e-shaft fracture surface, I might be able to tell you more.

I can't see any of the pictures, can you guys?

My suggestion would be to rule out anything simple first, check the flow of the oil lines, our car holds quite a bit of oil in them and the coolers so there is plenty of room for something to get stuck. Reflash the ECU. Might sound dumb but its the stupid things that you might over look, and they turn out to be the cause. Eliminate those before digging further into the issue.

nope

The pics were there before. It looks like google links though, which tend to expire regularly.

I would replace the thermal pellet, it typically fails in the shut position.

check the transmission, perhaps that is making the e-shaft out of balance.

clean every single oil line.

there were (are!) probably bearing debris in the oil lines/coolers.

thermal pellet should be checked too.

for sure its an oil supply problem, since the front rotor bearing is the last thing to get fed oil, it will be the first thing to fail

Could it be still pushing shards into the engine after the second failure? I was thinking they could possibly be gone now and he won't find anything in there even though that was the problem.

Improper rebuild, now you get to do it again.

My hunch is that the rebuilder did not use new parts and tried to skimp by with old ones.

Any engine that does not last 1000KM was poorly put together and is 99% of the time due to improper laborers, and not faulty parts.

First:
Here U have pics album:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...m8&usp=sharing
I don`t know why links work for a hour and then don`t.

Second thing I write engine mechanics please help. When I read what U write I think that either you don`t read what I write or U don`t understan the situation...

We rebuild 2-3 engines in a week so we real know how to do this. There is no posiability that this failure is a result of lack of oil. Or mistake in asemblying the engine. And I don`t write it because I think that we are that awsom, we make mistakes like every one. But 99% when I open the engine I can tell exacly what happened this time I apsolutely don`t have piece of idea;/ So I need help because we cant put next engine to this car since we know what happened.

Next thing that I saw many, many engines that didn`t have oil third thing that rebuild renesis is able to do about 2000km without oil. Unfortunately we know it ;P Engin runing without oil makes all bearing gold and shaft has scratch all around not only on half of ciruit. First bearing witch spins out is the one near the gearbox.


Once again there was some force witch pull rotor to shaft so fard that the bearing spin out. My question is from where such a force could occur. And why only on one rotor ;/

My ideas are that:
-ECU has enormous cosmic fail and makes knock detonation on one rotor... I don`t know how he could be able to do this but maybe...?
-To first rotor I don`t know form where but lot of oil leak. So much that engine could not compres it and push rotor to shaft
-There was some failure of counter weight... but how?
-Some failure of main gear of bearing but it look ok
-Some houseing failure this theory is good because one of the tops of rotor was totaly grated. There is another question how can only one of tops be grated??? Try to do this if U have some open engine. Spin the shaft and try to imagine a failure that makes that one of rotor tops wipes the houseing and two another dont... ;/ ??
-Is it posiable that low octane fuel done that ? Lets say 72octane. Owner of that car lives near the russian border and lot of strange thing is going on there so there is posibilyty that he had fuel from russia and as I know they have strange fuels ;/
-I absolutely reject theory that something was wron with oil path
1. There is no posiabilyty to kill only one bearing
2. There is no posiabilyty to kill bearing in 500km
3. We allways wash every thing 3 times
4. When we disasebly the engine it was obwious that oil system was ok. Though that second bearing die oil with pieces of this bearing still was distributing to all other bearings because in other bearings was pieces of destroyed bearing witch stuck in them.

Please remember that we are talking about two different engines destroy same way in one car after 1000km from day that the car was buy and 600km after rebuild.

I hop that someone will guess what happened!

Once again sorry for my writing but I hope that U will understand what I mean ;)

Carbon8 We are talking about this 1% of situations when something other went wrong. If U are so smart write what and don`t put stupid comments. All parts was new. Besides witch old parts could aford this failure! Please tell me. I`ll be glad to know so I can tell my friend to replace them. Rear diferential or maybe tell him to replace bonet to carbon one ??

I understand you are getting frustrated, but your text is so hard to read that the last thing people need is to also come across and decipher your attempt at sarcastic backhanded responses. The idea is to get people to help you, not to drive them away.