Engine mechanics please help. Unbelievable renesis failure
 

Hi!
Im new on this forum because in Poland we have our own big forum but I hope I`ll share my knowlage in future.
I`m a friend of the owner of I think one of the biggest rotary workshop in Europe. Some time ago I just to work for this workshop as a mechanic but now I have other work but the owner i still my friend. Thet for start now the problem:

Some time ago to his workshop came a customer with broken engine. Car had 40 000km on gauges. After disassembling the engine it showns that the first rotor bearing was in terrible shape it spins in a rotor. Shaft also was broken, rest of a motor looks like it has thous 40 000km so he thought thah owner didn`t check the engine oil and drove some time without it. User said that it could be posible. I dont want to write a book here but we are talking about workshop witch rebuild over 200 renesis engines so we saw a lot!!
Pics of engine:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GT...hQAkbv0w=w1600
Shaft was broken only on first rotor and only on half of circuit!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g6...TSzAk9rA=w1600
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9-...I8164K_Q=w1600
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/g5...R3dX4Qyg=w1600

Here is rotor without bearing:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/vh...Gdx4MaOQ=w1600

After that new engine was build from:
site housings - from other engine
Rotor housings from old engine (was in good condition)
shaft - from other engine
rotors - from other engine
all seals brand new
all bearings all new
Oil pomp new
Oil coolers cleand



After rebuild like allways every thing was ok. Customer took the car and drove home. After 600km when he was driving to work shop for oil change the car broke...

My friend from work shop called me for help because it didn`t happend erlier that brand new engine 600km after rebuild broke.

We open the engine and look what we saw!!

Shaft:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/d4...w5tMPfhg=w1600

Rotor:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/YP...ehGsEC2A=w1600

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/Bh...k553Owlw=w1600

Bearing:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Pw...pmidleUg=w1600


LOOK FAMILIAR ??

Look at this!:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/c7...e4AD_QZg=w1600

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/6c...-tGYy-TA=w1600

Here is full album of pics:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...m8&usp=sharing

So after 40 000km engine die and next brand new engine after 600km die in the sam way !! How can it be posiable?? Customer claim that every thin for all this 600km was ok and when he drove hiway sudenly engine change his sound and the car stops!! This failure is very unusual! In our opinion there is something wrong out site of the engine witch kill the engine but what can it be?? Please help us!! We are afraid to build new engine and put it in a car because it can be the same situation ;/

Please send link to this topic to workshops witch U know maybe somebody has the same problem ;/ Owner of the car is mad and the situation has red prioryty ;)

Any sugestions please send on:
kajakwawa@o2.pl

P.S. Sorry for my English, I hope somebody can help us ;)

Was a new oil pump fitted with the second engine ?

Moved to Tech for some better visibility to the thread.

I'd guess that there was metal in the oil system that wasn't properly cleaned out. Any shredded metal from the previous failure would probably be sitting in the oil coolers, fire up the new engine and it starts recirculating and damaging things all over again. Not a common problem with the rotary, but it's a common concern on failed piston engines, especially ones that spin a bearing.

Ofcourse

I can`t move it yet because I`m new user and I don`t have 10 posts ;P I don`t wanted to do fast plastic post because I`m admin of Polish rotary forum and I know how annoying they are. If admin or moderator can than please do that ;)

There is no posiabylity that somethong stays in oil system every thing is allway clean before new engine go to the car. Second thing is that every other 3 bearings are still almost new!! This shit didn`t happend because of oil system failure. Ther must be some force from unknown source with pull rotor to shaft so fard that the bearing spin out in rotor. Second strange thing is that in that second engine in broken rotor 2 apex was still ok only one was pull into the rotor and destroyed like in this pic:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/no...WsrQjxyQ=w1600

Every on who I know who can asembly rotary engine after long talk by phone say same thing. Magic man, or this is fucking strange but I don`t have any ide what happend ;/ We have 10 years of practice with thouse engines and when we see that we looked on this and on us and on shafts and on us and every one has the same face look... :eek:

Hey guys wake up ;) Any sugestions??
We are in very hurry because its sumerr and every one wants to drive... the customer to ;)

Next importat thing is that this first engine broke up 1000km after customer buy the car. The car is 2006, 40 000 in very good shape and condition and he buy this car for very low money... ;/ We dont know any spec of car storry but it maybe that car didn`t kill just two engines ;]

Rebuild it again, only this time try to do it right.
Check the OMP and the internal oil system as well.

bse50 don`t be rude! OMP was from another engine and the oil pump as well. All parts was checked. If U are so smart tell me what happend? Why 3 bearings are ok and one spin out? How can it happend that after 500km there is no one bearing ;/ And why only one top of the rotor was destroyed? Specify questions and please specify ansewears!

Wow such a big forum an almost 2 days after I post the problem and no respons ;/

Part of it is that it was the weekend, part of it is that is that when you run into strange issues that are not easily answered, it make take some time to find someone that has run into it.

This might be a stretch but could it be extremely out of time? Or maybe a blocked oil line causing minimal if any oil injection?

That looks like localized oil starvation, but if you are 100% sure there is no debris blocking oil paths, then possibly a balance issue? That might explain the damage to just one of the 3 rotors tips.

Or, something amiss with assembly?

looks like some sort of oil related failures to me.

but twice ... something clogged somewhere.

Actually, if you can take some really focused pictures of the e-shaft fracture surface, I might be able to tell you more.

I can't see any of the pictures, can you guys?

My suggestion would be to rule out anything simple first, check the flow of the oil lines, our car holds quite a bit of oil in them and the coolers so there is plenty of room for something to get stuck. Reflash the ECU. Might sound dumb but its the stupid things that you might over look, and they turn out to be the cause. Eliminate those before digging further into the issue.

nope

The pics were there before. It looks like google links though, which tend to expire regularly.

I would replace the thermal pellet, it typically fails in the shut position.

check the transmission, perhaps that is making the e-shaft out of balance.

clean every single oil line.

there were (are!) probably bearing debris in the oil lines/coolers.

thermal pellet should be checked too.

for sure its an oil supply problem, since the front rotor bearing is the last thing to get fed oil, it will be the first thing to fail

Could it be still pushing shards into the engine after the second failure? I was thinking they could possibly be gone now and he won't find anything in there even though that was the problem.

Improper rebuild, now you get to do it again.

My hunch is that the rebuilder did not use new parts and tried to skimp by with old ones.

Any engine that does not last 1000KM was poorly put together and is 99% of the time due to improper laborers, and not faulty parts.

First:
Here U have pics album:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...m8&usp=sharing
I don`t know why links work for a hour and then don`t.

Second thing I write engine mechanics please help. When I read what U write I think that either you don`t read what I write or U don`t understan the situation...

We rebuild 2-3 engines in a week so we real know how to do this. There is no posiability that this failure is a result of lack of oil. Or mistake in asemblying the engine. And I don`t write it because I think that we are that awsom, we make mistakes like every one. But 99% when I open the engine I can tell exacly what happened this time I apsolutely don`t have piece of idea;/ So I need help because we cant put next engine to this car since we know what happened.

Next thing that I saw many, many engines that didn`t have oil third thing that rebuild renesis is able to do about 2000km without oil. Unfortunately we know it ;P Engin runing without oil makes all bearing gold and shaft has scratch all around not only on half of ciruit. First bearing witch spins out is the one near the gearbox.


Once again there was some force witch pull rotor to shaft so fard that the bearing spin out. My question is from where such a force could occur. And why only on one rotor ;/

My ideas are that:
-ECU has enormous cosmic fail and makes knock detonation on one rotor... I don`t know how he could be able to do this but maybe...?
-To first rotor I don`t know form where but lot of oil leak. So much that engine could not compres it and push rotor to shaft
-There was some failure of counter weight... but how?
-Some failure of main gear of bearing but it look ok
-Some houseing failure this theory is good because one of the tops of rotor was totaly grated. There is another question how can only one of tops be grated??? Try to do this if U have some open engine. Spin the shaft and try to imagine a failure that makes that one of rotor tops wipes the houseing and two another dont... ;/ ??
-Is it posiable that low octane fuel done that ? Lets say 72octane. Owner of that car lives near the russian border and lot of strange thing is going on there so there is posibilyty that he had fuel from russia and as I know they have strange fuels ;/
-I absolutely reject theory that something was wron with oil path
1. There is no posiabilyty to kill only one bearing
2. There is no posiabilyty to kill bearing in 500km
3. We allways wash every thing 3 times
4. When we disasebly the engine it was obwious that oil system was ok. Though that second bearing die oil with pieces of this bearing still was distributing to all other bearings because in other bearings was pieces of destroyed bearing witch stuck in them.

Please remember that we are talking about two different engines destroy same way in one car after 1000km from day that the car was buy and 600km after rebuild.

I hop that someone will guess what happened!

Once again sorry for my writing but I hope that U will understand what I mean ;)

Carbon8 We are talking about this 1% of situations when something other went wrong. If U are so smart write what and don`t put stupid comments. All parts was new. Besides witch old parts could aford this failure! Please tell me. I`ll be glad to know so I can tell my friend to replace them. Rear diferential or maybe tell him to replace bonet to carbon one ??

I understand you are getting frustrated, but your text is so hard to read that the last thing people need is to also come across and decipher your attempt at sarcastic backhanded responses. The idea is to get people to help you, not to drive them away.

If I understood that correctly, the only responses I have are to these points:

I don't believe there is anything the ECU can do to affect the bearings, positive or negative.

Too low of octane would have shatted seals and produced a failure somewhat like this:
Attachment 225208

Again, it wouldn't have caused a bearing failure.

Your points failed to mention the oil lines from the engine to the oil coolers, or the oil coolers themselves. Even a thorough washing of them will almost certainly leave metal inside if there was metal floating through the oil system from the first failure.



The reason we keep going back to that is because if everything is fine between the bearing surfaces and oil is present, you simply will not get scoring on the bearing like that. Something foreign was present between the two surfaces. If you insist that there could not have possibly been oil debris from the last failure sitting in the oil coolers, then you will have to supply the answer of where that foreign debris came from. And oil is the only liquid that flows through there, so if it wasn't in the oil system then it was physically left there during reassembly.

You can find documents like this all over the web:
http://amsperformance.com/instructio...%20failure.pdf
Since the original failure was a bearing failure, and you acknowledge that there was metal debris present, then I believe that this certainly applies here.

You changed the engine, but not the oil lines and coolers.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's a pretty logical conclusion to me.

that housing picture is awesome!!

there was an catastrophic failure and if you want to reuse the coolers, at least have it professionally cleaned. not just spray air into it with compressed air and said it's cleaned.

if it's me I just gonna get brand new coolers and lines,

or at least get some used cooler that's NOT from a car with similar failures, and I will STILL send it off for cleaning b4 using it.

same car, new engine, same failure. you guys f-ed it up.

It is a little difficult with the language barrier, but I think we can work around that.

I'm not jumping to any conclusions without knowing a bit more. I've seen too many weird things happen after service events, and as a profession, I do parts investigations, material analysis, fatigue and parts failure studies, vehicle history and service event studies to determine root cause of a failure on rotor systems. So, this is right up my alley. :)

Anything left over in the coolers would first have to be returned to the pan, then then passed through the oil filter, whether it was in bypass or not. If it was stuck in by-pass, or in by-pass at any time, then large debris would be let through at any oil pressure.

Question...what debris was in the 1st oil filter, and what debris was in the 2nd oil filter, and what was in the oil pan on either one? Were either of the oil filters stuck in by-pass when you looked at them?

And, I did see where you have a 180 degree bearing material transfer to the e-shaft on both, which suggests a balance issue. But, first you have to figure out if the out-of-balance condition that caused that material transfer was the primary fail mode, or was it consequential damage to another failure. The first e-shaft was so bad it cracked along the axis of rotation, which suggests a severe out of balance condition, not torsional (or sudden stop) type of stress fracture.

We need pictures of each housing, oil filter/sump debris info, and pictures of every other bearing from the engine. Otherwise, we're really just jumping to a conclusion.

People once again... If you put on one site compresed air mix with cleaning petrol to car oil line and copresed it from one to another site until you see clean petrol there is no posiabilyty that something is still in there. Only air is not enought to clean coolers.

Mike went good path. And he is right that even if there was still some parts of old bearing oil filter should stop it. Never mind this is 100% not the oil way problem.

MikeTyson8MyKids nice deduction I think that U can help us !! I try to make some pictures and put them tu album. I don`t think that I can cut the filters because they propobly in trash.
When we oponed second engine our first deduction was about balance issue but gearbox look fine and I don`t think that counter weighf or flywheel could be broken ;/ Most propobly thing that mayby cluth some how but I didn`t check it yet.

I think consequential...
This is realy intresting problem huh ??

IDC how many rebuilds you do a week, nobody gets 100% of them right.

13 posts, poor attitude, terrible grammar, and the inability to make complete sentences that can be understood.

Good luck with this thread buddy :icon_no2:

the grammar is only a side effect of English not being his native tongue.

Yes, but it is not an excuse for the blatant bad attitude when we are all actually trying to help.

Carbon8 U were rude for me so I can be rude for U a bit ;) I know my English isn`t perfect of near to perfect but is enought to comunicate. Sure that for me would be better to speak in Polish but ... I bet U don`t know Polish :P

I read your forum in my free time but I don`t have time to write. Writing in English about tech things isn`t so easy. Next thing that I have my owne forum and I`m admin/mod and all in one so + my knowleg and experience make that I sacrifice for Polish users in our national forum.
www.rxklub.pl if U want to lookin. I hope no one will punish me that I write another forum adres ;P

I specifically pointed out that I want to talk with mechanics because all obvious reasons of failur were excluded.

10.08.2013r. We meet in Track Poznań so maybe I`ll ask some usert to put a some pictures and few words about. Lets don`t make OT.

P.S. I know I`m new here and my language is a bit sharp so I`ll try to be polite with my words :)

In about 6-8h I`ll put more pic`s.

yeah, the amount of members here that know anything and are also mechanics (by career) is slim to none.

The people who know the most are the weekend warriors and some that don't even own 8's

Its apparent this was a fluke case, we can all sit here and whine about whose fault and what went wrong (IMO I am going with an oil problem as well, no other reason those bearings would be trashed unless they where just dry) Its also noted the nothing under 90 octane should be used as it creates detonation.

I would be more worried about building it again, using new parts.

Think about it in other way. The car have some speed and there is some engine speed. Oil system is 100% ok. On one rotor you put some force from outsite witch gently slows the rotor but shaft has his energy from another rotor and wheels... What will happend ? Rotor want to go in one direction, shaft pulls it in other? Betwen them is bearing... What happened is wery simply for me I just dont know why and where from was that force.

Another topic is that workshops all around the world aren`t so willing to share their knowledge. (I don`t know is it properly write ;P) This also applies to our workshop. Rebuilding this engines properli cost a lot of destroyed engines and a lot of nights with problems like this. I know there is no problem to do this in home garage but when problem like this apers it cost 3 or 4 times more than new engine from ASO. Our friend some time ago same engine rebuild 3 times ago because he said that he must do it by him self ;) ofcourse good for him that he make it.


P.S. I watch your topic. There is no need to write on rotors F and R... If U know how to recognize them ;) On the edges there are cuts witch are directionaly with rotor spining direction.

We are all trying to help. The oil lines having debris in them is a VERY reasonable diagnosis. Try to hear us out we all have many different experiences. I myself had a engine failure due to debris in my oil cooler on my 79 Rx7. So yes it is possible. I had different damage than yours but the old 12a is quite a bit different than the Renesis as far as I know. I've never torn into one but I do know for a fact the damage done to my engine was from a similar problem.

The only way for that kind of damage to happen is a foreign object or lack of oil or both. If everything was lubricated properly that can not happen. Unless the engine is wildly out of balance, and in that case the owner should of noticed a nasty vibration. Can you ask the owner exactly what they felt right before engine failure?

it is a bad idea to reject theory without evidence

yes there is, it has happened twice.

then how do you explain this engine? the front rotor bearing is the last one to get oil, so if there is an oil supply problem, that or the front main will be the first to show it

yes. there is a problem with something that gets used for both engines, since there is a lubrication system failure, it is logical to look at the lubrication system first.

j9fd3s

Please don`t humiliate your self.

There were no failure in lubrication system. Look on the pictures don`t U see that both of shafts, besides of one place look ok? Rest of bearing also.

If some one also think that lubrication system make that engine failure just live it for your self and dont write it in here. Im open for any sugestion even if U think it was UFO but dont write about lubrication system please.

Pretty sure everyone has said oil issues, you ask for our help.

We all agree on what was wrong, but your disagree because you can't wrap your head around it. :lol:

Seems that from all your experience has blinded you to the fact that you are still human and therefore still capable of making an error. Obviously you don't know what caused the failure, but you are 100% certain you know what it wasn't.

I guess let's talk again when you have yet another e-shaft/bearing to compare? Best 2 out of 3!

i still dont see any mention from him regarding the thermal pellet like others noted. If it failed, it fails in the cold (closed) position and will prevent operating oil pressures from reaching the front bearing.

J9fd3s is right, it would have to be something the two engines shared. If you want to reject our theories then I'm going to reject the theory that you know what you are talking about. Almost everyone agrees. It's got to be the lubrication system.

And why would you be so rude to people trying to help you? In this country that's a good way to make everyone say "not my problem" and walk away.

Thank you paimon.soror.

Ok guys Im gratefull for your help but if I open 10 or 20 or 50 engines with oil failure and all look the same then why sudenly one look diferent?

Here U have new album:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...kU&usp=sharing

First U have pic`s of two shafts witch I found from engines witch has oil failure. Look at them they are destroyed every where and all around.

Then from pic P1040905.JPG we have shaft from 1st engine. Its craked only on 1/8 of his surface. Of course rest of surface is a little bit destroyed too but its obwious because when bearing spins out oil presure went down for some time when engine still was able to work.

From pic P1040929.JPG U have second shaft. In my opinion look almost the sam as first one. Little bit less destroyed propobly because when engine sound has changed user stop and call a trailer.

PIC P1040931.JPG Compared oil problem shaft with shaft from second engine.

Then there are pics of rotor houseing and plate from second destroyed engine. Next the rotor. Today I wash him a little bit and it shows that his sides are seriously scratched. Realy funy way on the tops.

After washing I put half of engine together but without apex seals. I spin him a bit but I didn`t notice any worrying things ;/

Only thing witch stays from old engine was rotor houseing. And now question is it posiable that lets say in result of material fatigue he change his dimensions when he get warm? Im planing tu put him to warm oil to check this. What do U think about it? Rotor was scratched on the tops so if he was hiting houseing surface he could make presure on the shaft. In this moment for me it is the best explanation of this situation. But problem is that first rotor wasnt scratched ;/

Im open to all your opinions but oil line with no explanation why first rotor and why two times does not appeal to me. Especially that every single time when it was obvious that engine was working without oil or with low presure shafts were like on first pictures.

I didn`t build this engine so there is no case that I cant admit that I make mistake. Maybe U are right but I know what I see. U didn`t saw this engine so maybe its hard to believe in my words.

Once when I was working in this workshop we didn`t bolt properly this thing:
http://www.tmp.rotaryengineillustrat...0Regulator.jpg
It was tightened only by hand. After start I drove this car about 300km every thing was ok customer was driving that car for over a month and after about 1000-2000km engine die. It was our mistake on of us cleaned the plate to asembly another took and didn`t checked tightening and engine fail. In that case customer was driving mad now customer drive gently and had make only 600km. With 100% good oil pump, oil presure and maybe as U all say some shit from clean coolers or I don`t know form where...

P.S. Last pics shows second rotor bearing from second engine. It was new puted now it`s rubbish but its more dirty from all copper from lubrication system than grated.

Wow, wha the f? Seriously? So much for you guys build so many engines! This is not even something thats supposed to fucked up. Wow, wow

You should just delete this WHOLE THREAD