Allch Chcar

Material resistance doesn't have two bits to do with the engine configuration.

Anodized aluminum is the only way to use aluminum without it corroding.

fernando94fox is being way to vague. I don't trust someone that says they only lost 20-25 miles per tank when they don't even share the original range. MPG > Range. Range is not an accurate measurement of fuel efficiency.

Fill up your fuel tank with E85, reset the trip meter, drive until it gets low, fillup with E85 again and divide the trip miles by the gallons it took to refill and post your results here. Much more accurate for comparison .

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You can't run E85 in the RX-8.

The maximum available fuel trim via OBD-II is only 22%.
Ethanol has a stoichiometric deficit of more than 30%.
There is a pretty good chance you'll ping the motor to death long before you corrode anything. lol

Allch Chcar

So you could if the base fuel trim was for E85, right?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

What? I just told you that there isn't enough trim available for the stoichiometric requirements for E85.

The RX-8 is not a FlexFuel vehicle. The engine management can't handle E85.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

^+1
anyone can loose/gain 20-25 miles per tank, even a slight change in your driving habits can do that...

Allch Chcar

oh. I see.

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

I don't really see how you think that's a comparable point... running E85 would lower your baseline/tank average immediately. That would guarantee that no matter what, you will see lower mileage. That adds up over time. If your gas mileage lowers because of driving habits, at least you're getting the enjoyment from it.

So I've seen arguments why it might not be a terrible idea to run it... but I'm not sure I'm following any arguments as to why you would chose to run it over gasoline. Even if it's possible, why go through the hassle if there's not a quantifiable benefit.

ken-x8

IMHO, the best reason would be fear of pulling into a gas station on empty, and discovering that the only fuel they had was E85.

Ken

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

^ LOL, I hadn't even thought of that as a possible situation. Even then, I'd imagine there would be better alternatives, such as calling for someone to help bring a gallon of gas or something.

This would be a bit of a different discussion if it was more performance focused. If there are benefits to running it in a stock car like the RX-8, it's so minimal that it wouldn't be worth it. The effort it would take to properly and safely run it would far outweigh the benefits. I've seen some impressive E85 builds, but those were purpose built cars.

bse50

If I ever needed something like that i'd go with toluene! F1 cars used it so it must be good yo!

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

I was agreeing that the guy claiming to run e85 and only loose 20-25 miles was full of it. I don't even use gas with 10% ethanol unless I'm getting gas from chevron lol.

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

Oops... my mistake. I thought you quoted someone else and were arguing in support E85, saying the difference in mileage was minimal.

bse50

Minimal as 30% worse...
The math is fairly easy.

Allch Chcar

I wouldn't run it without a proper tune anyway . I was being asinine.

I don't know why everybody would run it but I know of a few good reasons I would run it on a stock engine with a proper tune.

It's been shown to make more power, maybe 3-5% depending on the tune, nothing huge but it's noticeable. Eg. FFVs make more power on the stock tune although most are designed for Regular anyway. I've seen a few dyno charts showing more power on E85 than Premium(they're rare though), the results weren't spectacular on an N/A engine.

It's cheap, not always cheaper than Regular and sometimes not even Premium but it's close and E85 is 96 Octane. Even if you mix it down to 50% Ethanol it's still 95.5 Octane.

It's optional, unless you build a really narly engine with high compression and boost. You can still switch back and forth with a different tune.

Gasoline is 66% imported while Ethanol is mostly made from domestic fuels like Natural Gas and Coal, and it reduces Petroleum consumption by 75%.

Plus E85 is even more turbo friendly than Premium if you decide to go that route. The amount of power people make with E85 is comparable to those running C16 from what I have seen/heard. Converting and tuning to E85 would be a good baby step before someone builds an E85 monster.

I am not an expert by any definition.

Toulene is not street legal, E85 is street legal, road taxed, pump gas. Plus E85 is cheaper. Toulene is like $10-$12 a gallon .

If it's any consolation, I've heard less than 30% from people that don't test drive cars for a living .

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

True.

Sorta true.
The problem is it is only that effective octane at its required stoichiometric ratio.
Since you need 30% more of it than gasoline to achieve stoichiometry, ethanol immediately becomes more expensive by a third and the engine management system will either apply gasoline stoichiometry which will reduce the ethanol octane value by 1/3 or, if calibrated correctly increase the consumption by a third.
It is a lose/lose situation.

OK. That is just an oversimplification and combining of a fairly complex set of data with a few things that are just plain false.

Also true, though mitigated by the massive quantities of the stuff that needs to be used to produce that power and its limited availability.

You are not an expert by ANY definition.



Toluene is already in gasoline. Now you are just grasping at straws.
There is no reason not to add toluene or, better yet, xylene to you tank if you want to.

True, but I don't see your point particularly.

Once again, you are combining terms into a fallacy.
One gallon of E85 will not do what one gallon of toluene will do.

Here is a practical for that:

The RX-8 gas tank is 14 gallons.
If you fill it with 13 gallons of 91 octane and one gallon of E85, you will have produced a tank of 90 octane gasoline.
If you fill it with 13 gallons of 91 octane and one gallon of toluene, you will have produced a tank of 92.5 octane gasoline.

You are just a wonderful font of useless, invented and fraudulent statistics, aren't you?
You should read more Twain.

Allch Chcar

30% leaner , that doesn't mean 30% more MPG. Maybe half of that.
You are obviously a fountain of mis-information talking what you don't know about.

Stoichometric is Lamda 1.0 for any fuel. ECUs do not use air:fuel ratios for determining Stoich during Closed Loop, it uses Lambda.
The numbers I used for Imported Gasoline and Ethanol usage are based on official Government documentation. Not the most accurate but it is definitely close to reality. And if you look at the EPA numbers for Oil reduction for using E85 it's about 75% less Oil with the MPG reduction which is based solely on BTU content so it is actually less than actual MPG.

DOE Statistics

EPA on Ethanol
Note that it reduces Oil Imports.

Oil reduction for usage of E85

Correction, it appears to be 66% less Oil consumption. My mistake.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

No richer.
You need 33% more ethanol to acheive a 1.0 lambda.

Yes. Your point?


Which factor out the collateral costs. Try again.

ken-x8

MM - You don't trust numbers from the government? Not even the finely tuned efficient one we have today?

Allch - are you aware of what MM does for a living?

Ken

bse50

Just look at Allch's avatar. He's just a ridiculou puppet. They pull the strings saying ethanol is great and he barks and rolls over, waiting for his cookies.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

You really need to stop posting and making yourself look dumber

At a minimum you will need larger fuel injectors and a higher flowing fuel pump for an RX8. Preferably an engine management option too because even though the system is lambda based there are some subtle differences between E85 and gasoline that need to be accounted for for optimum operation.

Allch Chcar

No kidding.

I know, government numbers, blah blah.

I am aware of the extra fueling requirements for E85 but thank you for contributing. I'm more worried about this, "Ethanol eats Rotary housings."

dumber?

ken-x8

I tend to not read too much into avatars. For the record, that is not my car nor is it me in my avatar. Although I did take the picture and am a huge fan of that driver.

I do, however, read a lot into what people post here over the years.

Allch-

I often fantasize about MM's avatars, but have no idea whether he gets into those any more than I get into my avatar. But to say he's a tuner is an understatement. If he states any property of the RX-8, take it as fact.

Ken

Allch Chcar

I already removed that comment because it was unnecessary. But I will keep that fact about MM in mind from now on.

Thanks,
Allch

dynamho

Whew~ That settled down much quicker than I thought.
Now can we talk about MM's avatars? jk