E85 Conversion
03-01-2008, 12:21 AM
#51
No means yes
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ethanol sucks.. there are many other candidates for alternative fuel on the horizon, but instead of doing any research on those we're dumping boatloads of money into ethanol.. go team..
03-01-2008, 12:15 PM
#52
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i kno wthis post is old but in conjunction with the one above-
of course its safe- your dilutung the 85% solution with the gasoline. most winter blends are e10 they are safe. i dont know the safe limit but you'd probably at the least want to dilute the e85 to about e50.
by the way i was reading some interesting things about alcohol recently. it does provide less mpg at normal compressions. BUT at higher static pressures it can deliver the same mpg as gasoline.
by upping the compression you can gain about a third more mpg bringing it back inline with gasoline
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...-isaf-no55.pdf
03-16-2008, 02:41 PM
#53
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e85 price VERY MUCH depends on how many stations actually have it.....
in my town the ONLY place where E85 is sold is the local HEB Grocery Store/Gas station. e85 costs $2.89 and regular 87 is $3.15.
the more places that sell e85 the cheaper it will be/get. in orlando,FL where i visited recently(this past fall) e85 cost $1.90 and nearly all the gas stations sold it, except for the old run-down ones. 87 was like $2.20
in my town the ONLY place where E85 is sold is the local HEB Grocery Store/Gas station. e85 costs $2.89 and regular 87 is $3.15.
the more places that sell e85 the cheaper it will be/get. in orlando,FL where i visited recently(this past fall) e85 cost $1.90 and nearly all the gas stations sold it, except for the old run-down ones. 87 was like $2.20
03-16-2008, 02:56 PM
#54
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The other thing is the difference between a piston and a rotor. I wonder how much of the energy loss from the caloric value of E85 could be returned from just the timaing advance possible. Certainly not all of it, but some of it....
03-17-2008, 10:46 PM
#55
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My understanding of E85/ethanol is that it both sucks and Kicks @$$ as fuel. If you're looking for MPG you need to look elsewhere (at lest for now), but if you want power E85 is racing fuel you can buy at your local gas station. There are a lot of articles out there about some insane power with E85.
As far as the how it is made, that might change in the future. I need to find the article again, but with biomass-GTL you put any organic material into a machine and it converts like 90% of it into fuel and uses 40% of that to run itself, so you get 50% into fuel. This is way over simplified and probably not totally correct, but you get the idea. But I think Biomass-GTL is a ways off.
As far as the how it is made, that might change in the future. I need to find the article again, but with biomass-GTL you put any organic material into a machine and it converts like 90% of it into fuel and uses 40% of that to run itself, so you get 50% into fuel. This is way over simplified and probably not totally correct, but you get the idea. But I think Biomass-GTL is a ways off.
03-26-2008, 12:53 AM
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actually... E85 could very well provide greater performance, but there's no way around the fact that mileage will suffer... the Koenigsegg CCX 888hp on petrol... the CCXR (tuned for E85 instead of gas) 1018hp...
05-23-2008, 09:46 AM
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I have read all the posts with interest. As fuel prices rise, my it becomes harder for me to afford to fill the RX8. I understand that one of the biggest drawbacks to E85 is that the alcohol will remove the lubricating film from the seals therefore pure E85 may not be good for the engine.
With high octane gasoline running over $4.00 a gallon, is it feasible for me to fill half with 87 octane gasoline and half with E85? Would the E85 raise the octane level when mixed with regular gasoline to provide good performance? Will the regular gasoline reduce the alcohol content enough to not remove the lubrincant from the seals?
With high octane gasoline running over $4.00 a gallon, is it feasible for me to fill half with 87 octane gasoline and half with E85? Would the E85 raise the octane level when mixed with regular gasoline to provide good performance? Will the regular gasoline reduce the alcohol content enough to not remove the lubrincant from the seals?
12-10-2008, 06:03 PM
#59
No distributor? No thanks
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Alcohol is not going to hurt your engine. It is not going to eat any parts inside the engine as nothing inside the engine is aluminum. The rotor housings are but their wear surface is a machined sheet metal insert and it's coated anyways. Even if it was aluminum, you'd still be OK. There are lots of people that have made their rotaries run on various alcohols. You "may" and I'm not even sure this still applies, have issues with O-rings swelling. I've seen this on older rotaries but that was only with Methanol and not Ethanol. I'm not sure what the differences are with the Renesis but with much of our fuel today containing at least some Ethanol, I'd be shocked if they hadn't anticipated this.
The main thing you'll need is a way to reprogram the ecu. Luckily a wideband O2 sensor reads in lambda so it doesn't know what fuel you are using. This makes tuning easier as all you need to do is figure out what target a/f ratio you need to aim for and just richen it up across the board. You should be able to run more timing too but there are always exceptions and I'm not getting into all of that here. Basically just find a way to retune for it.
The main thing you'll need is a way to reprogram the ecu. Luckily a wideband O2 sensor reads in lambda so it doesn't know what fuel you are using. This makes tuning easier as all you need to do is figure out what target a/f ratio you need to aim for and just richen it up across the board. You should be able to run more timing too but there are always exceptions and I'm not getting into all of that here. Basically just find a way to retune for it.
12-12-2008, 02:47 AM
#60
Mazda Furai runs on E100. Maybe mazda has something in mind, for biofuels...
If that was destructive for the engine why they use it?
If mazda makes new rotors for higher compression ratio then there will be gain for both performance and fuel economy
Those cars (like furai) are engineering exersises for what's coming next (i think).
If that was destructive for the engine why they use it?
If mazda makes new rotors for higher compression ratio then there will be gain for both performance and fuel economy
Those cars (like furai) are engineering exersises for what's coming next (i think).
Last edited by Psychopath; 12-15-2008 at 03:33 PM.
12-15-2008, 11:07 AM
#61
Hey guys, have a look at THAT:
"For competition engines, we can raise the compression ratio of your rotor by adding material to the combustion pocket. The material is precision deposited to give each flank the same recess volume and provide for better compression balance. This service can be used to raise the compression ratio up to 11:1 and is available in “as sprayed” form (where the client will have to finish the combustion pocket) OR with a CNC milled finish that can be tailored to your preferences.
Additionally, we are also able to precision CNC mill each rotor flank to ensure that each face of the rotor is providing the same compression and that each one has the same rotor recess profile. This is especially important on race engines where the OEM Mazda rotor have varying compression ratio’s from flank to flank."
http://www.jhbperformance.com/services.php
How about it?
Is it possible?
possible but difficult?
impossible?
noncence?
If possible, it will solve the biofuel ...thing. I think.
"For competition engines, we can raise the compression ratio of your rotor by adding material to the combustion pocket. The material is precision deposited to give each flank the same recess volume and provide for better compression balance. This service can be used to raise the compression ratio up to 11:1 and is available in “as sprayed” form (where the client will have to finish the combustion pocket) OR with a CNC milled finish that can be tailored to your preferences.
Additionally, we are also able to precision CNC mill each rotor flank to ensure that each face of the rotor is providing the same compression and that each one has the same rotor recess profile. This is especially important on race engines where the OEM Mazda rotor have varying compression ratio’s from flank to flank."
http://www.jhbperformance.com/services.php
How about it?
Is it possible?
possible but difficult?
impossible?
noncence?
If possible, it will solve the biofuel ...thing. I think.
12-16-2008, 09:43 AM
#62
Rotary wanabee
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Hey MM do you read this thread? If so could we use the same injectors with just a different map or would you recommend a new fuel pump and injectors.
Map for reg gas (E10)
Map for E50
Map for E85
Perhaps a MM package deal in the works ... maybe a special one for MM cobb owners
Map for reg gas (E10)
Map for E50
Map for E85
Perhaps a MM package deal in the works ... maybe a special one for MM cobb owners
05-26-2009, 05:38 PM
#65
06-05-2009, 10:25 AM
#67
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I've been running a 30% E85 70% 87 Octane mix for about a year now. Engine runs very well on this.
MPG with straight 93 Octane is consistently 20-20.2, my daily drive is 82 miles open freeway and 12 miles country road. Usually average 70 MPH on the round trip.
30% E85 70% 87 Octane mix I get 19-19.4. Factoring in the cost its just about the same depending on the prices. The mix was definately lower cost when gas was in the $4 range.
Throttle response is a bit crisper. It seems to run better above 7000 RPM, but thats from the butt dyno only.
On the few cold days we get in Texas, it fires first spark (cold or warm) but with gas only it needs to turn over about 2-3 times.
On long drives the passenger side heat is reduced with the mix. The passenger will notice that after the first fuel stop and you fill with 93 octane only.
I've tried filling a 1 gallon of E85 only (and had a two gallon bottle of gas with me) and it will run, but not very well. I ran it for a while, and refilled a couple times a gallon each to see if the ECM would learn E85. It wouldn't. The engine stumbled on opening the throttle and lacked power. Just too lean.
Despite the grumblings of a few dinosaurs here, ethanol is a great fuel when the engine is designed for it. The Renesis is not designed for it, but then its not really designed for any fuel under 120 octane either. Detonation and rotaries is a different subject, but detonation is the reason rotaries are difficult to make efficient.
MPG with straight 93 Octane is consistently 20-20.2, my daily drive is 82 miles open freeway and 12 miles country road. Usually average 70 MPH on the round trip.
30% E85 70% 87 Octane mix I get 19-19.4. Factoring in the cost its just about the same depending on the prices. The mix was definately lower cost when gas was in the $4 range.
Throttle response is a bit crisper. It seems to run better above 7000 RPM, but thats from the butt dyno only.
On the few cold days we get in Texas, it fires first spark (cold or warm) but with gas only it needs to turn over about 2-3 times.
On long drives the passenger side heat is reduced with the mix. The passenger will notice that after the first fuel stop and you fill with 93 octane only.
I've tried filling a 1 gallon of E85 only (and had a two gallon bottle of gas with me) and it will run, but not very well. I ran it for a while, and refilled a couple times a gallon each to see if the ECM would learn E85. It wouldn't. The engine stumbled on opening the throttle and lacked power. Just too lean.
Despite the grumblings of a few dinosaurs here, ethanol is a great fuel when the engine is designed for it. The Renesis is not designed for it, but then its not really designed for any fuel under 120 octane either. Detonation and rotaries is a different subject, but detonation is the reason rotaries are difficult to make efficient.
06-05-2009, 10:44 AM
#68
My 8 looks like a Smurf
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Guys -- don't forget that Hymme has been running E85 in his supercharged 8 for a while and managed to get an extra 20hp by doing so.
Don't ask me how, I just saw the dyno result he posted. Just saying it's not impossible, but I am sure there was a LOT of work put into everything he did.
Don't ask me how, I just saw the dyno result he posted. Just saying it's not impossible, but I am sure there was a LOT of work put into everything he did.
06-05-2009, 11:03 AM
#69
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No one will deny that you can get more power out of E85. However your gas mileage suffers very hard. If all you care about is power on a forced induction engine then go ahead and use it. If you want to save money on fuel costs, E85 isn't going to be the answer.
Ethanol CAN be made to work very well. It doesn't work well in current engines optimized for gasoline use and this is where the problem lies. Ethanol does have less potential energy in it than gasoline so theoretically it should have less total power potential per volume used. However there are more important things going on inside an engine such as pumping losses as well as burnability, flame front control, and heat absorption properties of the fuel. We lose tons of energy just so we can get some usable mechanical power from it. Just because the fuel itself has less potential energy in it does not mean the total engine efficiency can't be improved when running it. There are many variables. It's not always plausible that more power will be made with a fuel that has less potential energy in it but it's certainly possible to. The key is in how well you utilize the potential as usable work.
Ethanol CAN be made to work very well. It doesn't work well in current engines optimized for gasoline use and this is where the problem lies. Ethanol does have less potential energy in it than gasoline so theoretically it should have less total power potential per volume used. However there are more important things going on inside an engine such as pumping losses as well as burnability, flame front control, and heat absorption properties of the fuel. We lose tons of energy just so we can get some usable mechanical power from it. Just because the fuel itself has less potential energy in it does not mean the total engine efficiency can't be improved when running it. There are many variables. It's not always plausible that more power will be made with a fuel that has less potential energy in it but it's certainly possible to. The key is in how well you utilize the potential as usable work.
06-05-2009, 12:50 PM
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e85 price VERY MUCH depends on how many stations actually have it.....
in my town the ONLY place where E85 is sold is the local HEB Grocery Store/Gas station. e85 costs $2.89 and regular 87 is $3.15.
the more places that sell e85 the cheaper it will be/get. in orlando,FL where i visited recently(this past fall) e85 cost $1.90 and nearly all the gas stations sold it, except for the old run-down ones. 87 was like $2.20
in my town the ONLY place where E85 is sold is the local HEB Grocery Store/Gas station. e85 costs $2.89 and regular 87 is $3.15.
the more places that sell e85 the cheaper it will be/get. in orlando,FL where i visited recently(this past fall) e85 cost $1.90 and nearly all the gas stations sold it, except for the old run-down ones. 87 was like $2.20
more sell it = more demand + same amount of corn = higher prices!
06-06-2009, 09:10 AM
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For those looking for some pricing on E85:
http://e85prices.com/
Its pretty accurate for the Texas area.
http://e85prices.com/
Its pretty accurate for the Texas area.
06-06-2009, 03:10 PM
#72
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ethanol may be cheap now but its becuase its not the most common fuel if the whole country ran on it
it would cost at least twice as much as gas now
gas wasnt running a couple bucks a gallon when it began being used. ethanol is running that now and its not a majorly used fuel yet if that ever happens (hopefully not) it will be extremely expensive and car prices will also go up for having to find a way to efficiently make engines that run on ethanol more efficient than gas.
if that makes sense ....
it would cost at least twice as much as gas now
gas wasnt running a couple bucks a gallon when it began being used. ethanol is running that now and its not a majorly used fuel yet if that ever happens (hopefully not) it will be extremely expensive and car prices will also go up for having to find a way to efficiently make engines that run on ethanol more efficient than gas.
if that makes sense ....
01-29-2014, 05:00 PM
#73
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everyone knocks alcohol may be because you could make your own gas at home. auto builders and oil companys have been in it together for a long time. sugar cane is the only effective way to make ethanol no ifs ands or buts. alcohol makes more power just go to the drag strip none of the fastest cars run gas all run alcohol or nitromethane. 20 percent more fuel is needed to run alcohol 25 percent for methanol and 40 to 50 percent for nitromethane blends and almost 9 times the fuel for 90% nitromethane mix. alcohol is a astringent which strips oil off surfaces. It is not an acid and may over time cause slight oxidation but water will do the same faster. if you dont believe me drop a crimp on cable stop in a bottle of water and drop another in alcohol, vodka will do just fine as it has both alcohol and water a worst case so to speak place both bottles on a shelf in your garage sealed for a few months or years for that matter nothing more than a white film will form on the surface of the metal. as for the fuel system all rx8 fuel lines pump and injectors are safe to use alcohol. like i said earlier it is not acid but most modern lines and pumps could pump acid just fine.injectors would be toast as they usually contain some form of brass. Fuels like alcohol and nitromethane both have oxygen locked in the fuel itself hence the reason for more fuel needed for less air. lets face it the only way to make more power is increase what is being burned. there is no magic fuel that you use less fuel more air to get more power. if it existed we would be using it at the track.
Last edited by b2fast007; 01-29-2014 at 06:53 PM.
01-29-2014, 07:02 PM
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oh yeah one more thing alcohol burns with a blue flame so in daylight you can burn to death in your car after an accident and no one would know. another reason it gets a bad rap and lack of respect.