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E85 Conversion

Old 08-21-2007, 05:20 PM
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E85 Conversion

I was wonderign what a guy would have to do to convert his prised posession rotary engine to run on flex fuel.


If so .. how? cost? Who can do it?
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:57 PM
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I don't believe there is any kit to do this, but you would have to retune the EMU and probably add bigger injectors. Also, there may be parts of the fuel system that aren't chemically compatible with large amounts of ethanol. You do understand you'd get about 40-60% of the fuel economy you're currently getting, if you used E85?
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Old 08-22-2007, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Georgia8er View Post
I don't believe there is any kit to do this, but you would have to retune the EMU and probably add bigger injectors. Also, there may be parts of the fuel system that aren't chemically compatible with large amounts of ethanol. You do understand you'd get about 40-60% of the fuel economy you're currently getting, if you used E85?
i thought it was closer to a 20% loss of mileage...not 60-40
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by faboo View Post
i thought it was closer to a 20% loss of mileage...not 60-40
60% would be pretty extreme, even though I put that out there. The rule of thumb (when running 100% alcohol) is you need about twice as much to go the same distance. When I run 10% ethanol mix I see about a 5% difference, so I figure you could easily see something in that range from E85. I do admit I could be wrong, but I've yet to see anyone convert an RX-8 to run E85 and give us hard data on power output, economy, etc.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:12 AM
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you' need a whole new engine- since much of the area exposed to the fuel is aluminum and the e85 eats aluminum for breakfast- bye bye renesis.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:38 AM
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In my part of the world, it's getting hard avoiding the 10% ethanal gasoline they are selling. Why do people think ethanol is such a good idea?
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:19 AM
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The ethanol is replacing MTBE as an additive for cleaner burning fuels. MTBE use in gasoline was banned by EPA due to groundwater contamination issues.

So bottom line, because oil companies can't keep their station tanks from leaking, we have to use a higher priced additive (ethanol) that gives poorer mileage and increasing their profits. Simple, eh?
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zoom44 View Post
you' need a whole new engine- since much of the area exposed to the fuel is aluminum and the e85 eats aluminum for breakfast- bye bye renesis.
That's too bad, I would love to see an RX8 with less than 10mpg highway

On another note - is the 10% or so ethanol they have in most gasoline now actually dangerous for our engines? any way to counteract this?
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:42 AM
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Supposedly, the 10% maximum was set to protect all existing engines. As time goes on, newer engines may be able to handle higher percentages but the lag time for phasing in would have to consider the numbers of "older" engine vehicles still in use.

When EPA first mandated cleaner burning fuels and unleaded gasoline, ethanol was not considered due to the damage it could cause. Also, the current pipeline infrastructure can't be used to transport 100% ethanol because it would also damage the pipelines. So continuing the trend, higher priced trucking of ethanol to refineries drives the prices up or building new pipelines will do the same.

The reason for the lower mileage is that ethanol, when burned, produces less energy than gasoline with MTBE.

Last edited by SilverStreak; 08-23-2007 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Additional info
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:45 AM
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So no to E85. lets see option number 2 is ....


Hydrogen fuel cell? running off of duel fuels?
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:03 AM
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mazda already has rx-8 hydrogen burners running on the road. its pretty easy to convert for hydrogen actually.

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCel...2,9540,00.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/15/m...rx-8-in-japan/

one fueled up at the hydro filling station in norway

http://rotarynews.com/node/view/810
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:15 AM
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^ In '93 they "Developed test version of MX-5 equipped with hydrogen rotary engine"

!!!
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:25 PM
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Why do people think ethanol is such a good idea?
Three reasons:

1. Reduces dependence on petroleum, which is getting scarcer and is usually imported.

2. Enriches local farmers (actually agribusinesses), since it's made from domestic crops.

3. Since it uses crops that would otherwise be surplus low-cost food, it starves out third world populations.

Not everyone likes all three reasons.

Ken
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ken-x8 View Post
Three reasons:

1. Reduces dependence on petroleum, which is getting scarcer and is usually imported.

2. Enriches local farmers (actually agribusinesses), since it's made from domestic crops.

3. Since it uses crops that would otherwise be surplus low-cost food, it starves out third world populations.

Not everyone likes all three reasons.

Ken
You forgot that it takes a lot more energy to create in the first place, is more expensive then gasoline (even at todays prices), actually slightly worse for the environment, and even if we covered every square inch of the planet with corn to make the stuff, we wouldn't have nearly enough.

So really, it's obvious why politicians are pushing it so hard. It's evil.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:24 PM
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However, it makes the fuel burn hotter and more completely, cutting down on CO emissions while raising Nitrous Oxide (greenhouse gas) emissions.

You can add a cat that will burn the NO but it adds about $1k to the cost of the car and I assume has the same power loss issues associated with a regular cat.
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
... while raising Nitrous Oxide emissions.
Now if only we could figure out a way for produce N2O this way... then people might not mind recirculating exhaust gas
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:37 PM
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Why would anyone want E85. It provides about 70% the energy content of gas, that translates into 70% the power and 70% the fuel economy yet is more then 70% the cost of gas. E85 is a poor fuel when all the energy it takes to grow and process are taken into account not to mention the amount of water needed for processing. The only way alcohol will make senses is if they can make it from waste products of plants which is still a developing technology.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:08 AM
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I think it would be a great idea.

Gasoline engines are not efficient anyways, I think they only have around 30% efficiency. That is where we need to focus.

As far as E85, I would be happy running %100 alcohol. Forgranted it does not provide as much energy, but Im sure with technology (look at the Renesis) progress could be made very quickly.

The process of making the fuel is much much cleaner than that of gasoline or oil. Essentially it is the same process as making beer, so much of the biproduct is steam which is very safe for the environment.

Look at Brazil, the price they pay per gallon of Ethanol is about $1.00. Sorry I would much rather pay $1.00, have less MPG, higher octane, and get away from the nations that sell crude oil to finance anti-western groups.

Originally Posted by Raptor75 View Post
Why would anyone want E85. It provides about 70% the energy content of gas, that translates into 70% the power and 70% the fuel economy yet is more then 70% the cost of gas. E85 is a poor fuel when all the energy it takes to grow and process are taken into account not to mention the amount of water needed for processing. The only way alcohol will make senses is if they can make it from waste products of plants which is still a developing technology.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:16 AM
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Alcohol is not going to hurt your engine. It is not going to eat any parts inside the engine as nothing inside the engine is aluminum. The rotor housings are but their wear surface is a machined sheet metal insert and it's coated anyways. Even if it was aluminum, you'd still be OK. There are lots of people that have made their rotaries run on various alcohols. You "may" and I'm not even sure this still applies, have issues with O-rings swelling. I've seen this on older rotaries but that was only with Methanol and not Ethanol. I'm not sure what the differences are with the Renesis but with much of our fuel today containing at least some Ethanol, I'd be shocked if they hadn't anticipated this.

The main thing you'll need is a way to reprogram the ecu. Luckily a wideband O2 sensor reads in lambda so it doesn't know what fuel you are using. This makes tuning easier as all you need to do is figure out what target a/f ratio you need to aim for and just richen it up across the board. You should be able to run more timing too but there are always exceptions and I'm not getting into all of that here. Basically just find a way to retune for it.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Vasichko View Post
Look at Brazil, the price they pay per gallon of Ethanol is about $1.00. Sorry I would much rather pay $1.00, have less MPG, higher octane, and get away from the nations that sell crude oil to finance anti-western groups.
With the price of gasoline where it is today that would be just fine with me. If I got half the mileage but paid less than half as much for a gallon, it more than offsets. However leave it to our government to make things expensive. Alcohol gets taxed and tarriffed to death here so the cost advantage goes away really fast.
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:02 PM
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there is a hydrogen refueling site in plainview, ny
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Old 08-30-2007, 06:33 PM
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But is the $1.00/gal ethanol subsidized? If so, you end up paying more than what you do at the pump. It could still be cheaper, but without all the facts it's useless to assume anything.
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:10 AM
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Brazilian Ethanol

Brazilian Ethanol is around $.85 per Litre which is about $3.06 per US gallon. There are no longer any government subsidies to Alcohol (Ethanol). In fact there are huge taxes of almost 70% by the time the consumer gets the product!

The major difference though is that Ethanol there is produced from sugar rish SUGAR CANE and not from Corn. Using corn was the USA's decision to please the corn belt producers and make the Mexicans mad since this drove up the price of corn which is a stable part of their diet in tortillas and etc..

Ethanol can make sense if made from the right materials and for the right reasons - but using it to get elected (i.e. making yourself seem eco friendly and making the corn producers happy) is counter productive...
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Old 10-02-2007, 11:24 AM
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is about 100-105 octane versus premium at 91-93. might see better performance as far as gas goes if there is a way to convert it...
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Old 10-02-2007, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Rotary View Post
Using corn was the USA's decision to please the corn belt producers and make the Mexicans mad since this drove up the price of corn which is a stable part of their diet in tortillas and etc..
Oh give me a break! It's much simpler than that. We grow lots of corn. We don't grow much sugarcane. Use what you've got.
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