dmp

Great points, Ike...

silver1.3

I agree completely, the only caveot (sp? I suck at spelling) is when it comes to did you get what you paid for issue. If I pay for 3000 squre feet of house and I was sold 2800 SF could I live with if I still like it - yes - did I over pay? Yes, is this ok to me no. But now we will be getting into now is more of a philosophical arrgument of what "worth" is - to me there are two schools of though on this board.

1. You enjoy the car reguardless of what the acutal HP is. And "yes" more HP would be great but I can live without it even though I was told it was one thing and in all actuallity it something all together. But HP is one category to describe a car and its worth, not the only.

2. You enjoy the car regurdless of what the actual HP is BUT you want what you paid for regurdless if its the manual they forgot in the glove box or the HP you were sold - if it makes your car faster or not is necesarrily relevant.

I for one am in 2. This doesn't apply just to my car but for any purchase in life. I feel people who fall in 1 are just grappling at excuses to justify not getting what they deserve. And while HP may not be the only category to describe worth, in a "sports car" its a big piece of the puzzle, no matter how good everything else is and if I was sold more HP I want it. <-----My opionion. My philosophy I adhere to.

dos

Not a flame, but how is the RX-8 so much more high tech and modern than other cars on the road? The rotary motor has been around since 1957 and in production cars since 1968(I believe). Is the Chrysler 300C/Dodge Magnum leaps and bounds above other cars because it has a Hemi? 340 HP 390 ft-lbs tq, 4066 lbs, 17 mpg / 25 mpg, 0-60 in 5.6 sec's and active cylinder deactivation. I'd say thats more high tech than a RX-8, the car weights a 1000 punds more, gets than same gas mileage as a RX-8(or better) and is faster 0-60 and quarter mile(14.1-sec. clocking at 101.1 mph). I'll count that as modern.

stanfordcole

I don't mean to be a stickler but the hemi wasn't invented just yesterday(1951). And that is just a modification to an engine(piston driven) that has been around for 100 years. Just because it's been around for awhile doesn't make it bad. To me that makes it good. Just my 2 cents

Info on hemi:
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/hemi/hemi.html

dos

Well that was my point(In a twisted mumbling way), the rotary is not new or ultra modern. It has been updated over the years as most engines are. The Hemi is no where near new and had most of its big "heyday" back in the 1950's to early 1970's. Both motors are modern, yes, is either ultra modern, no. I would count ultra modern as to something we have never seen before(I'm thinking laser beams, and hyper drives. :D ).

RenKat

It's not that the RX is new and modern, it is the PCM that is new and modern.
The type of control system used on the RX8 is very new and is not on many cars yet.

People you need to read the Ford OBDII specs and the Mazda service manuals then you might understand what all is going on with this system.

It is looking at every sensor and if they are not within the programmed range then something WILL CHANGE!

This system is NOT like any other PCM used on RX cars.

RX-Hachi

The rotary news article was posted before and is buried somewhere deep inside this board. As before, there are some who choose to believe it and those that will never believe the car has 238hp. I don't think the HP debate will ever end, but in my mind most reputable sources seem to indicate the power is not all that off the mark. According the performance test results from the car mags, 238 hp seems about right. R&T, C&D, and MT all got 0-60 in 5.9-6.1 secs and 1/4 mi. of ~14.5 secs. The car has consistently performed when driven by the pros.

All I can say is the power "feels" right to me. I came from an E36 M3 which had similar performance specs according to the car mags, and my RX-8 feels just as fast and is even more fun to drive. I used to own an FD RX-7 which did feel faster, but mostly due to the turbo rush. Currently also own a 540 BMW which has the torque grunt advantage, but really doesn't feel any faster and is far less nimble. Never dynoed the M3 or any of my cars, will never dyno the RX-8 because there's nothing to prove - I'm happy with it.

At the end of the day, the car feels right, it performs, and makes me smile every time I drive.

shaolin

I really hate how people say they don't feel or do feel that the car has 238 HP....fact of the matter is, 240-ish HP feels very differently from car to car, mainly due to the difference in weights and more importantly, the TORQUE CURVE.

IMHO the car feels like it has 238 HP for sure, but it also feels like it only has 155-ish torque...in other words, without a good torque curve, 238 HP means nothing. Not that the RX-8 has a terrible curve, just not as good as other cars, and that's the nature of the rotary. That's why you have a 9K RPM redline. Get used to it, and row that gear box.

What alot of people don't realize is that cars that usually have 240-ish HP, by nature of design, usually have a larger amount of torque making them FEEL powerful. So in short, when someone says they can "feel that the HP is there, or isn't there" they are actually talking out of their ***. LITERALLY.

rotarygod

The way it performs is all that matters. It performs as advertised. You can't compare this to square footage in a house that you are buying or anything else. It doesn't work that way. If the car performs as advertised, it must have the same amount of power that it did at the time the original ratings were published.

Would you guys be happier if the car made 250 hp but had less average power and was the same speed or slower? Numbers are all that matters right?

BasenjiGuy

If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. I've never had an issue with the car's HP. Sure, I'd like more low end torque, but the the car as a whole is fantastic. I also don't see the need to mod out cars. All you do is spend more money and make the car less reliable, potentially void the warranty, and lower resale value. If you want a faster car, buy a faster car. I've alway said, if you want to street race, get a V8 or similar vehicle with low end torque. Easier car to launch, and much less abuse when you can launch at 2500 rpms.

Roaddemon

The rx8 system is so new you could not possibly be the expert you pretend to be. Re- read the article. There is a safe mode. How would you know the limitations of safe mode on an 8? How would you possibly know what the car is engineered to do while sensing unusual circumstances?

I had a 85 transam 195 hp and a 86 z28 Iroc 220 hp. The rx8 would kill both these cars up to 0-110 mph. the 8 cannot be dynoed accurately. It defeats the dyno . If you don't like the article, and do not beleive it, fine. I think it's a much more reliable source than you are. Thanks for your BS anyway.

StewC625

Am I still allowed to like my car?

dmp

If an Engine is drastically pulling timing, it shows up on a dyno plot. I believe that's the point he's trying to make, and a point I happen to agree with. People are comparing it to what the M3 does - the way people figured out what the M3 was doing is by watching it on the machine. Other than 'lower than expected numbers' there's nothing obviously going on with the RX8 to indicate a massive yank in timing, (power). Just dyno's which show Mazda's current 238hp figure to be about 20hp too optimistic. Taking the weight of the vehicle, the gearing, and the wheel HP, most people have trap speeds in the 1/4 mile which correspond to the dyno-measured power. If people were trapping at 100mph with 175whp, there'd be a stronger case for "The RX8 HAS the power, but doesn't show the power on the dyno due to massive software adjustments".

Roaddemon

Thanks for the explanation. Still this does not explain the the posted article as to what happens to the 8 while on the dyno. Sounds like it adds fuel to preserve the catalytic converter. What else does the pcm on this car do when sensing a dyno run. who knows? Are you saying The 8 dynoes the same as any car? Mazda says it does not. I admit the engine dyno of 218hp does put the hp figures under suspect.

dmp

I'm saying nobody really knows. If there was a way to monitor the Stock ECU during a dyno, perhaps we'd all know for sure. Based on a preponderance of the evidence, I'm inclined to vote for "Mazda's revised Crank HP numbers need revision"



Again - it's just a number. The RX8 is a pretty fun car. Most people would rather Mazda simply came clean, ya know?

Roaddemon

I gotta agree with the fun part. Whatever the hp the 8 is beutifully ballanced handleing and powerwise. It easily fullfills it's purpose to please the enthusiast.

silver1.3

Actually its exactly like a house - you at numbers on one hand but say if it performs as advertised (which is based on numbers!) thats all that matters. Pick one.

Lets go with the "performs as advertised". If i told you the house had 2 bedroom 2 baths with a heat pump system that kept the house energy bills overall lower, double insulated window systems that lowered your energy bills and had 3000 SF and the sales person or add said the house was in a great neighborhood with high quality of life factor and you moved in and all these things were true you would not have a problem but if it turned out the house had all these amenities but only had 2800 square feet you would be pissed because you overpaid for the SF you bought. What if that extra 200 SF allowed you to have extra piece's of furniture or better seating arrangements in you living room to better suit your needs? In other words you don't appreciate what you dont have until you have it. Its easy to say "numbers dont matter" but you kidding yourself - while they are not the "end all" to a buying decscion they do have a relevance. They help quantify what you are buying and compare it to other things. You wouldn't by a house based just on subjective or precieved information. You would want to know how old the roof and A/C system is (and where is the paper work - your "numbers" if you will.)

How is this ANY differnt for a car - Its not. Yes the car performs as advertised - as advertised for a car with about 210 HP - and thats the problem. Your premise only makes sense if you look at the whole picture not one seletive area. Increase the HP to what I believe I was sold then the "as advertised" numbers would change. So your arrgument in that sense would make sense to any car no matter what they said the HP is. Under your argument if they told you it was 1000 HP you would be ok with this . NO, I think not.

And as for information on Dynos presented by a Mazda statement. This is the funniest thing to me how a lot of people are grasping at these straws. Most of us will all say that a car sales persons are one step above theives and would lie to their mother to sell a car. Just look at all the stories on this board if you need any proof. Thats why nobody just dives in and accpts the price a salesmen starts with because we know their not telling us what they'll really sell the car for. But you really dont think that person from Mazda is ANY differnt if not worse than a cars sales person. If so I have some ocean side property in Arizona I'd like to sell you. If they come clean they're are some serious $$$$ ramifications to deal with. They can lie because none of us can put up the $$$$ to prove them otherwise.

And for all those who yell about if one wants a faster car "go buy it" well you all just missed the point - wide of the mark too.

I say all of this and I LOVE driving my car - but im just not going to buy off some "Mazda Statement". Most that stuff applies to most cars anyway. And if you think our ECU's are so damn special get real - BMW's, MB's etc. all have the best of the day programing that have to do all the same things our car have to do, they may just go through it in a different way.

IcemanVKO

My Prelude had 190 hp, and Dynod at 152. The RX8 has 238 hp and Dynos at 180-190.

Looks about right to me.

Roaddemon

Thats alot of attitude there. Your saying you distrust Mazda and do not believe the report. Other than that you have no real arguement or anything to disprove the report. Noone at Mazda is going to come clean on this item if the report is true and Mazda knows it. You can only guess with your own suspicions. You have no facts. You cannot prove or disprove what Mazda claims with dyno readings. Hold tight ,maybe more prove will come in the future to put these issues to rest.

silver1.3

Well putting out an attitude isn't my objective here. Your right I can't prove it, but im not just going to blindly believe. In my previous posts on this thread my point is if you go buy what people are geting with g-tech devices and 1/4 miles times, while these arn't professional drivers, if you get enough data from all the different timeslips and testimonials most of what I've seen or read add up to a car of 210 HP max (on average). Thats more imperical than any "letter" of explanation to me or any other rationalization. But as for believing Mazda - their track record of being at best not up front with HP speaks for itself. Weather this is miscommunicatin on a corrporate level, bad testing procedures or whatever - the facts are still there. So when you say I have my suspicions your right - but I have good reason for them.

Furthermore my main thrust of my arugument has little to do with "trusting" Mazda at all - thats just a side note to my argument. I give no real weight to it just because it cant be proven or disproven. Take that part of my argument out the rest still stands as far as I am concernd. G-techs (assuming they are set up correctly - I can see argument with that) arn't that far off from the truth and they do tell real world experiences under real world conditions. No, my main thrust of my argument has to do with getting what I paid for. And while strait line acceleration isn't the whole world to me, I don't like getting dooped. Reread all my previous posts in this thread, I'm only interested in finding out if they're lying us to avoid big costs to them bascially - and so far all ive seen with the imperical evdience is "yes".

Yes we could all agree and say for instance "yes" its only 210 HP and we would all enjoy are cars - and cant tell you how many times I've typed that line - but its not about that its - reread my post on this thread earlier about the philosophies of this argument and you'll get what I'm after.

Roaddemon

Here's another thought. Maybe Mazda put out the report knowing it cannot be disproven. Thereby defeating the most valuable test for RWH.

silver1.3

Sounds like a good conspiracy theory to me!!!! :D

cretinx

After spending the past 2 days reading up on this topic and getting friendly with the search button, this is the best thing I've read.

zoom44

very good post wanted to make sure everyone reads that again

zoom44

several people argue about gtech numbers showing the 8 is not making 238 but the people that make those statements never show the g-tech numbers they are talking about.